Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Since he now has 8 votes (counting my own), and no , I'll do Ultron's write-up then see where the voting goes after.

Next Avengers Heroes Of Tomorrow: Built by Tony Stark to assist The Avengers and bring order to the world, Ultron decided the best way to bring order was to be the one giving orders. This drives him to betray and murder most of The Avengers, with Iron Man barely escaping with The Avenger's children in tow. After 12 years, during which time Ultron conquered half of the planet, killing millions and driving the survivors underground, he locates Iron Man hiding out in a base in the Arctic. Smashing his way in, he confronts the children, now teenagers, and attempts to kill them for being "potential threats." The kids escape while Ultron beats down Iron Man, at which point he captures and proceeds to torture him for information regarding the kids. When the teens sneak into Ultron's HQ to rescue Tony, they stumble upon Ultron's Trophy Room, showcasing the hundreds of signature items of superheroes he murdered over the years. The children later try to use The Hulk, who had been hiding out in the desert over the years, to destroy Ultron, however the machine bests him and then prepares to kill the children for possessing the "superhuman variable." While both Ultron and Stark would claim he is a creature of logic, Ultron shows through his megalomaniacal and cruel personality that this is just a poorly-veiled attempt to differentiate himself from the humans he so despises, and yet resembles in more ways than he'd ever admit.

edited 30th Jul '15 6:37:11 AM by Ravok

After getting up to date with Life Is Strange, I'd say that there's a possible candidate for CM from that game, but we should wait until episode 5 comes out before bringing him up since we don't know the full story yet.

edited 29th Jul '15 10:46:06 PM by Awesomekid42

He is not. A Player Character can NEVER be the worst person in the series. Ares is the worst. But only by a small margin and nobody qualifes. I only brought up Ares ones because he is responsible for all Kratos done since he killed his family.

Edit: I read De Carta's comment and I am starting to lean towards Ares. Kratos might kill more people onscreen but he does not kill his own family.

edited 30th Jul '15 12:49:18 AM by emperors

While not from a series, the player characters of Hatred and The Witch's House are both the worst characters in their games.

edited 30th Jul '15 12:43:53 AM by Awesomekid42

What are you talking about? A Player Character can absolutely be the worst in a video game based on their canonical actions. We just don't factor in Video Game Cruelty Potential. And Ares is not responsible for everything Kratos did after killing his family. All doing that changed was it made him go after Ares. Ares wasn't even around in the 2nd and 3rd games, where Kratos got even worse, betraying almost everyone. Kratos was already a monster before and during his servitude to Ares- when he killed his family, he was in the middle of burning a village to the ground.

edited 30th Jul '15 6:53:17 AM by Camberf

When we made the original rule against Player Characters, it was assumed that it was in a context where the player had the option to choose an evil path for their character, but was not locked into it. A player deciding to make their character a monster does not make the canonical character monstrous unless the game's writers later lock in that choice as part of a future installment's canon.

However, if there is a game in which the only available path is to be a unrepentant, genocidal, bigoted, rapist/murderer or whatever; and the player character has moral agency, is given sufficient motivations to rule out a Freudian Excuse or Well-Intentioned Extremist disqualification, and is the worst villain in the game given their capabilities; then it could qualify. I had not imagined that such a game could possibly be enjoyable even if someone would dare to make it, but I suppose I was wrong.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:11:30 AM by Fighteer

I know Lotso has been definitely defined as one as his tragic backstory isn't good enough of a justification, but he's considered a hero turned to the dark side. If he was good before, how could he possibly be considered pure evil?

"Irredeemable" does not mean "purely and solely evil", it means "has gone beyond any possibility of redemption". Some of the worst villains in history started as heroes, or at least people with good intentions. And despite my fundamental disagreement that Toy Story can produce a CM, Lotso is in there as a "never debate again" because of a conclusive vote.

edited 30th Jul '15 7:49:55 AM by Fighteer

That's based solely on the incinerator scene at the end though. I don't think that's enough, but it is what it is, so I won't cause any strife about it.

edited 30th Jul '15 8:08:51 AM by futuremoviewriter

Once Upon a Time in Wonderland's Jafar, Dio Brando, Koba, Griffith/Femto and General Modula were first generaly good people who shared some tragic past before becoming definetly purely evil so why should Lotso be any different ? Here's the proof that sometimes being a Tragic Villain doesn't justify a villain for being a CM. We're supposed to feel sorry for him in the past but not in the present.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:00:55 AM by ST89

@ Camberf

Nobody would like to play as the worst character in the game. I must agree with Fighteer on that. I think that if a Player Character is Villain Protagonist, his enemies are worse. I think we should establish a general rule where a Villain Protagonist should not be considered a CM (maybe with ''very few' 'exceptions).

edited 30th Jul '15 9:03:00 AM by emperors

As I said, I find it hard to imagine anyone enjoying a story in which the protagonist is the most heinous character (except in RPGs where you have a choice), but it could, in theory, be written.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:13:21 AM by Fighteer

Then again, choosing to leave living and/or sentient beings to die in a fire just for spite or glee, that takes a special kind of evil.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:20:33 AM by futuremoviewriter

Removed this from Deus Ex for not being vetted by this thread:

Kratos spends all of God Of War 3 killing the gods to get revenge on Zeus for entirely selfish reasons. Every time he kills a god, he destroys a great deal of the world. By the end of the game, he's responsible for essentially causing the apocalypse. So what does Ares do that makes him worse than that?

edited 30th Jul '15 9:26:00 AM by Camberf

Threatens to murder his own family (in my opinion, nothing is worse than that, not even genoicide), and Kratos DID NOT intend to destroy the world; he just doesn't care and he redeems himself by releasing hope to the world. Again, I am not arguing that Ares is a CM; he is not. He is just worse than Kratos. And if you think that Kratos was a monster before serving Ares, you obviously haven't played Ascension.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:28:45 AM by emperors

Threatening to kill your family is worse than genocide? That's what you're saying?

Yes. A family is a priority. After all, Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas. But that is just my biased opinion.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:30:33 AM by emperors

If that's how you feel, then yes, Ares would be worse in your eyes, but I doubt most people here would feel the same, so expect some people to disagree if you say outright that "Ares is worse than Kratos".

Lest we forget most of the gods ARE Kratos's family. He's Zeus's son

Not only that, but I repeat a Player Character SHOULD NOT be the worst character and most importantly, it was Ares who turned Kratos into this. Play Ascension and you will find out. And also, if we merely go by the first game, Ares could qualify very easily. But if we count all the series, Ares has been left behind as far as heinoussness goes.

Edit: But that is a different situation. Zeus attempted to murder Kratos first. You know, I will stop with my opinion; this is not discussion for this thread. Let's say genoicide is worse than threating your family by the standards of this thread. I still think that Kratos while maybe more heinous than Ares, he still better because he has redeeming qualities.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:40:58 AM by emperors

It rarely ever happens, but being playable doesn't stop the character from being the worst in the series. Not saying Kratos is the worst in the series though.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:42:36 AM by Awesomekid42

Ascension showed that Kratos was capable of some human emotion, but it didn't retcon the fact that he was already a brutal warlord. I agree that Ares would've at least come closer to qualifying if the first game was all we saw.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Player Character "shouldn't be the worst" character in a game. Is that just your opinion on how to make a game tasteful? What bearing does that have on whether or not one can be the worst?

edited 30th Jul '15 9:45:39 AM by Camberf

Look, I get saying that it is worse to threaten the people who raised you then people you do not know. Barring your family being abusive, they've arguably done more for you than anybody else has, and being willing to kill somebody who has been good to you could easily be seen as worse than being willing to kill someone you've never really interacted with. At the least it says a lot about what an ingrate you are. If you want to contend that killing, for instance, your mother, is worse than killing some random woman off the street, you won't really get an argument from me.

However, bodycount matters here, and a guy who murders his immediate family (which is a limited number no matter how large) does not trump a guy who murders thousands or millions of people, even if he's never met them. The sheer scale of the second crime outweighs the first, no matter how personally nasty it might be.

Yeah, not sure where he's going with that either. I mean, I think that vampires shouldn't sparkle, but it doesn't change the fact that Twlight is a thing that happened.

edited 30th Jul '15 9:52:22 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Also

"and Kratos DID NOT intend to destroy the world; he just doesn't care "

That makes it better how?