Needs Help: Self Imposed Challenge

This trope (and subtropes) is about arbitrary challenges made up by fans of games to make their playthroughs harder. The problem here is that this is currently an objective trope instead of an Audience Reaction or In-Universe trope, which is not appropriate for this kind of trope designation.

Possible actions to take with it:

• Make In Universe Examples Only and/or requires examples be from games that encourage the challenges via an Achievement System, Arbitrary Mission Restrictions on bonus content, or optional in-game toggles that allow the challenge to happen (i.e. the No Experience ability in Kingdom Hearts II making a Low-Level Run possible by preventing the player from gaining any levels).
• Make it YMMV.
• Make it a Just for Fun page that documents common challenge types and has an example lists of popular challenges from specific games (i.e. Nuzlockes for Pokémon). Speedrun would go here without examples because it's a universal challenge.
• Split into an In-Universe Optional Challenge and a YMMV trope.

edited 2nd Jan '16 7:44:25 PM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Opening this for discussion.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Bump.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Splitting sounds good, certain games gain a huge challenge community like FFV's four job fiesta contest via website that happens every year, FFX's really massive challenge community with very established rules, or World Of Warcraft Iron man contest which you must level naked and delete the character if you die and Blizz itself ran the contests and confirmed things. These kinds of challenges are really a type of trope.

Diablo's hardcore challenge was made into a real game mode in its sequels which would be an ingame challenge option.

edited 11th Jan '16 2:04:31 AM by Memers

Sounds like we have our split. I agree that there should be a different trope for the In-Universe and the Audience Reaction.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I'm cool with that.

Another question is what to do with some of the subtropes. Many are legitimate challenges, but stuff like Speedrun doesn't lead itself to good example write-ups when each one is basically "beat the game as fast as possible". We could restrict that one to only listing examples of arbitrary challenges that don't fit the 3 basic Speedrun types of "Any%", "Low%", and "100%", or make that one a Useful Notes page or something else.

edited 11th Jan '16 12:36:55 PM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Honestly, the current Speed Run page reads like a useful notes page with some video links. I like the idea of making it a Useful Notes page and just mixing the examples in with the general Self-Imposed Challenge page.

edited 11th Jan '16 3:49:36 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Speed Run is something different than an Imposed Challenge, its related but not the same.

Also there are two types of speed runs, Cheating via glitches to skip most of the game and actually playing the game as fast as you can. The former is Glitch Trivia while the latter isn't much of anything unless its on Awesome Games Done Quick or something and in that case its trivia.

Some games though do set timelimit speed runs though which should be a trope in of itself outside Speed Run, like FFIX's Excalibur II item requires you reach and beat a bonus boss in 10 hours to get the item and S Rank time challenges for games that its not required like Timed Mission but you get Bragging Rights Rewards. And it is not our Time Attack trope although it easily could be with some expanding.

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Back on the subject of the Official Self Imposed Challenge Option its really gotta be there for only the challenge.

I mean stuff like Star Ocean's 'deal one damage every hit skill' isn't there for the challenge possibility, although it can be used for that... have fun doing millions of damage with only 1 damage per hit, its there to give high level characters the chance to get good at combos without one shotting a mob and go for the 200 combo trophy.

Or World Of Warcraft's ability to turn off xp gain is not there for the challenge, its there to allow characters to stay in the same PVP tier and create a Twink Character instead of continuing the game.

edited 11th Jan '16 4:08:20 PM by Memers

I don't think it should be called a Self-Imposed Challenge if it's being imposed by the game, even if only by option.

Hence the split. The YMMV version should probably keep the current name due to this.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

I've had my eye on Speedrun for a while, and I agree that making it a Useful Notes page is probably most appropriate. It doesn't need examples of speedruns on the page, but one could certainly argue a speedrun (among other challenge runs) is a derivative work like a Let's Play, particularly when they're commentated. I could see the page existing with the current above-the-line text and maybe a little more additional information. Most of the in-game examples that might fall under Speedrun are better suited for something like Time Attack or Lost Forever.

As far as the page in general, a Self-Imposed Challenge that is rewarded in-game some way is not self-imposed, and a self-imposed challenge that is entirely based on the player is not part of the work; I'm not even sure it fits the criteria for YMMV. I like having Self-Imposed Challenge as an IUEO trope and pruning off the Audience Reaction examples from the other pages (a lot of the other tropes are valid, since there are games that encourage these things).

edited 13th Jan '16 2:29:47 PM by Darksilverhawk

Rocks fall, everyone miraculously survives.

Bump.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Yeah speedrunning should be kept on a more fan based page for twitch streams and such. maybe a page about Speed Running Tactics and works that incentivized or enabled speedrunning

I'm not exactly sure what the definitions of the split pages would be. The trope as defined is "people giving games additional 'rules' in order to make them more difficult and thereby enhance replayability". An In-Universe definition would be... examples of characters doing that? Or something more like I Am Not Left-Handed (without the "switching to the right hand" part)? That's essentially an entirely new trope (and may actually overlap with I Am Not Left-Handed anyway).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

The proposed split is Optional Challenge—tasks that aren't required to beat the game, but which the designers put in for replayability, vs. Self-Imposed Challenge—things that the players come up with on their own. 100% Completion is almost always the former, for example; all that extra stuff you can collect but don't have to. If it wasn't meant as an optional task for the dedicated, it wouldn't be there.

edited 2nd Feb '16 7:11:53 PM by HeraldAlberich

Question for you guys.

Should we keep example lists for No-Damage Run, No Casualties Run, and Pacifist Run, etc.? I can't see them inviting good example write-ups for the same reason as to why it was proposed that we make Speedrunning a UN page.

Also, I've started a sandbox for Speed Run.

edited 2nd Feb '16 8:49:31 PM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

If one is rewarded or enabled in the game its ok to be on the examples list for any of these tropes IMO.

The thing is, those aren't always Audience Reaction tropes—sometimes a portion of normal gameplay will use them. Some star missions in Super Mario Galaxy, for example, are No Damage Runs—repeats of previous missions, except Mario is made a One-Hit-Point Wonder instead of his usual three.

At the bottom of the No-Damage Run examples talk about 'community challenges' for game communities, those should be moved to Self-Imposed Challenge or Community Challenge pages.

Is the "no tropes on Useful Notes pages" a wiki-wide thing or just for the historical UN pages? I'll go work on the Speedrun sandbox in a bit.

Anyway, as far as a split is concerned, I actually see three categories here.

1. Self-Imposed Challenge, in-universe. A character in a work undertakes a self-imposed challenge, not necessarily limited to videogames. Basically, what the "Non Video Game Examples" folder on the current page is.

2. Self-Imposed Challenge, audience based. A player or group of players set an arbitrary set of conditions for a play-through. These challenges are not recognized by the game itself in any way. Not a trope, probably worthy of a Useful Notes or Just for Fun page.

3. Optional Challenge, game incentivized. A challenge set forth by the game itself and that gives rewards, whether that is through an achievement, a new item, a little star next to your name, a big screen popping up that says "congratulations, now go outside," whatever.

edited 3rd Feb '16 10:20:40 AM by Darksilverhawk

Rocks fall, everyone miraculously survives.

I like the three way split described here .

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I do too. I would further propose that the current Self-Imposed Challenge subtropes (No-Damage Run, etc.) be limited to Optional Challenge in-game examples, while self-imposed examples can go into folders on the Just for Fun/Trivia/whatever page.

I was thinking more like

• Self Imposed Handicap - In universe where the character chooses to not do X making it harder. Like Disgaea 2's Adell who refuses to fight with weapons, instead fighting with his fists because he is a man.
• Community Challenge - Stuff like Final Fantasy V's Four Job Fiesta and Final Fantasy X's No sphere grid challenges that have published rules. Also Twitch contests would fall under this.
• Skill Challenge - A Super Trope to all types of ingame challenges that are rewarded in the game with at minimum a Trophy or cosmetic reward. Subtropes currently are
  • 100%Completion
  • Low-Level Run
  • Minimalist Run
  • No-Damage Run
  • No Casualties Run
  • Pacifist Run
  • Solo-Character Run
  • Speedrun
  • Stealth Run

Some though like Solo-Character Run do not have an ingame example listed so they are a problem, I can think of one though in Mass Effect 3 multiplayer you get rewarded for beating the 4 player maps solo.

We no longer accept Troper Tales so any personal examples can go screw themselves.

edited 3rd Feb '16 11:58:36 AM by Memers

What kind of page were you thinking Community Challenge would be? Useful Note?

Rocks fall, everyone miraculously survives.