Misused: Save Scumming

In the last paragraph it says: If this explicitly involves Time Travel rather than reloading the game, see Reset Button. However, all films listed under Non-Video Game examples are including time travel and hence should go under Reset Button:

Then move the examples and make sure they're wicked right. This is just a few minutes work. It doesn't need a TRS thread.

I suppose the reason they were put here has to do with the intent. But yeah, if you think they don't belong there...ctl-x, ctl-c.

Maybe make that line you mention more prominent? If you define it that way, it's virtually impossible to have non-video game examples.

Also, I'm not sure it's actually misuse.

Reset Button seems to a general reset of the world state, while this refers to a character continually trying till they succeed.

That's the thing. There arent supposed to be any non videogame examples.

I think the line needs changing. "Groundhog Day" Loop seems the more appropriate link.

edited 12th Jan '15 5:04:18 PM by crazysamaritan

I think the trope should be expanded to fit film examples. Save Scumming is very specific (something akin to using the Reset Button to your advantage). There is no live-action equivalent trope of that and frankly I don't think we need to create one. Tropes Are Flexible after all.

Using "Groundhog Day" Loop as an Invoked Trope is the same thing.

I'm not opposed to making it Audience Reactions.

edited 12th Jan '15 8:23:39 PM by crazysamaritan

I am actually going to go further and call Save Scumming Not A Trope. Save Scumming isn't something that happens in the work itself. If it happens in the story of the game it is something else (Reset Button, "Groundhog Day" Loop or whatever).

Save Scumming is a method that the player in the real world has to interact with the game itself. In my opinion this is an Audience Reaction. It is not the "right way" to play. It is not the only way to play. Very few games expect you to do it although most are aware of when it can be done. It is a reaction that some players have to certain situations in certain games.

I disagree, the ability to save scum to get certain outcomes is very much a trope, especially the ones that are easy to do, give you the ability to soft reset, warn you that something is coming up or right after a save point..

Developers can eleminate the ability to save scum in various ways like Auto Saving, saving before you get the results or have a streaming save system like most MM Os

edited 12th Jan '15 8:33:23 PM by Memers

I am not saying savescumming is not a thing. It certainly is some kind of thing. But if a Trope is part of the process of storytelling I guess I just don't understand how Save Scumming is part of the narrative of the game.

Gameplay tropes are very different than narrative tropes, almost polar opposites and are pretty much video game exclusive outside of rare shows that reference it or are playing games.

edited 13th Jan '15 5:40:25 AM by Memers

I think if non-video game examples are put on the page, it should be In-Universe only. IE, Alice is seen playing a game and ends up Save Scumming while doing so. That and perhaps Let's Play examples such as ProtonJon.

Game tropes are different from story tropes. But game tropes are still tropes.

Yes, but is *this* a trope or not? I think it depends - does the game more or less rely on the palyer save-scumming, and does it affect the way the game tells its story? In that case, it's certainly a trope. But if the developers didn't intend for this to happen, and it's just players abusing the system, as it were, is it a trope then?

It's a player pattern, much like Abridged Arena Array.

^Not a great counter arguement. Abridged Arena Array has a YMMV banner, so that one isn't a trope.

Not sure what you thought I intended that comment to be a counter argument to.

Sorry, I over interpreted. I thought you were responding to the question of whether or not this is a trope. And you don't actually state if you think it is a trope or not. Although I suppose the comparison to something that is not a trope suggests that you think this is also not a trope. But again that is another interpretation on my part.

Well, it's an Audience Reaction type thing. It can be referenced or encouraged by developers, but that's not the same thing.

The only way I can see it used in a non-game scenario would be if someone intentionally sets it up a situation where it can happen for that specific purpose. Just being caught in a "Groundhog Day" Loop wouldn't qualify, but setting up the starting point yourself and resetting it manually (which would include suicide) if you fail what you want to achieve would count.

I don't think it counts if you just unintentionally die every time and that's what causes the reset. Even for games I'd be hesitant about that, unless you're Sequence Breaking (which essentially would qualify as setting up the situation where you need to use it yourself).

Some games can encourage it indirectly for one-time things that are difficult to accomplish and/or heavily luck-based, like trying to catch a Legendary in the Pokémon games (it gets even worse if you're trying to get good IVs for official tournaments).

edited 15th Jan '15 11:16:31 AM by Karxrida

As I said, that's not the same thing. Encouraging one thing isn't the same as being that one thing. Encouraging people to love a minor character doesn't make that character an Ensemble Dark Horse.

This trope really comes into play during luck based anything like

• random stat rolls,
• random chance loot drops off 1 time only enemies or chests,
• random events that only have a chance to occur,
• dialog based Dating Sim type systems where choices give differing amounts of points and it's impossible to know what is what without cheating or scumming ,
• have rare items that only have a chance to be consumed on use or have break type system.
  • a chance at Permadeath type system after getting K Oed or actual Permadeath but not game over system. IE Final Fantasy Type 0
• Doing things that have some kind of success rate like say item crafting with a chance at failure.
  • have a proc that gives you a bonus like double items
• X event has a failure state that does not result in a game over.
• a betting type system where you lose big if you lose, IE: gambling mini games.

All of these are quite objective so it isn't really a reaction, they are very good reasons to make you want to do it, actually choosing to or not does not really matter. Many just label it as bad game design to make it so you have you do it or make you want to do it.

On the developer's side it is enabled by them making it easy to save scum by having a Soft Reset like the old ps1 hold the shoulder buttons then hit select + start, have the load game option available in the start menu. And on the opposite side they can force you to save before showing the result, auto save all the time, always online streaming data etc.

edited 15th Jan '15 12:04:24 PM by Memers

This is definitely a trope and game developers are aware of the effect it can have on the gaming experience. Any time a save point is put right before a boss fight, the dev team is giving the player the perfect opportunity to do this, to the point where save point locations can become something of an Interface Spoiler. Also, anytime events have an RNG associated with them, they can be expected to do this. The prevention of this is also definitely a deliberate choice as Save Scumming is the norm, rather then the exception, so when players can't do this, it really can change the way the game is played.

Examples:

Final Fantasy games place save points right before Bosses. If you've been going down a dungeon for a while and a save point pops up, the odds of a boss fight happening soon is good. This means you can re-fight bosses until you can get the right drops/steals from them.

Alpha Protocol prevents the player from doing this easily as it automatically saves as you go. And this is a game where The Dev Team Thinks of Everything easily applies. As a lot of the choice in the game is based around making impressions on people, this prevents players from easily re-doing conversations until they get the result they want.

edited 15th Jan '15 12:48:18 PM by ObsidianFire

That's not what Interface Spoiler means. You're probably looking for Ominous Save Prompt or something similar, like Anti-Frustration Features or Suspicious Video-Game Generosity (which is about items, not save points, but the idea is the same). Anyway, that's probably semantics in relation to this topic.

Final Fantasy games don't put savepoints before bosses so you can savescum them and get the right drops. They put them there since bosses are generally harder and it's easier to die to them than the rest of the dungeon, so the save point is there so you don't have to play the entire (easier and time-consuming) dungeon again just to get to the actually hard part.

Save Scumming is what players do. It's not a trope used by developers. It's not inherent in the games. What devs can do is to have features that enables Save Scumming, but that doesn't make those features Save Scumming in themselves. On the other side, Save Scum Prevention Features is probably also trope.

Sure, those are all objective, but how players react to those situations is still an Audience Reaction.

edited 15th Jan '15 1:44:27 PM by AnotherDuck