Needs Help: Luckily My Shield Will Protect Me

This is the first time I made a thread with this new system (can't find anything else to call it) , so I really hope my OP is solid enough and I'm actually seeing a legitimate problem here...

So, anyway, I'm quite confused on what Luckily, My Shield Will Protect Me is supposed to be. The description focuses mores on shields and their history rather the trope...which I think is fantastical/supernatural shields or unusual usage of shields, judging by the examples and snippets of the description? The examples range from shields being used as weapons (which is covered by both Throwing Your Shield Always Works and Shield Bash), to supernatural shields, to just...shields.

The trope' s name isn't very indicative of it means either. These issues were brought up on the trope's archived and currents discussions as well. As an aside, the YKTTW isn't very different from the way the trope is now.

I apologise for not bringing up an example check...but I'm pretty tired right now . I know it's not a good excuse but.... If this thread is ever opened I'll be sure to that and maybe a wick check.

edited 24th Sep '14 8:41:02 PM by MacronNotes

Calling ~MacronNotes, since the thread was opened.

The trope I see here is Shield or Shields In Fiction, i.e how shields are used and portrayed in fiction.

We might want to add links to the various shield sub-tropes for this (and make this a supertrope?). They seem to be missing from the description.

It's a Weapon Of Choice trope about shields. IE: it's about characters who use physical held-in-the-hand shields as their main armament. Well, probably alongside another weapon.

edited 3rd Oct '14 11:29:09 PM by Clarste

.... Often used as "this character uses a shield."

It's supposed to be a Weapon Of Choice trope? I couldn't see that with the description written the way it is.

Part of the problem is the name, I think. They're doing that thing where they're naming a trope so it's similar to another one, in this case "Luckily, My Powers Will Protect Me", which isn't a trope about -powers- so much as a character's tendency to constantly remind the audience what their abilities actually are.

So going along with that idea, "Luckily my shield will protect me" should be a page discussing how people keep mentioning their shields or some such. The page here is just an all-purpose page about shields.

That's my take, anyway.

Hmm, the name might be causing problems but it's already unclear what the trope is supposed to be about which seem to be just..shields, which is not a trope obviously. The YKTTWseems to lean to it being about shields being used as weapons..I think.

edited 11th Oct '14 4:51:54 PM by MacronNotes

We already have tropes for shields as weapons. Shield Bash covers melee and Throwing Your Shield Always Works covers projectiles. We don't need another shield as a weapon trope. If that's the case, this is redundant.

edited 11th Oct '14 4:55:27 PM by shimaspawn

This is about Shields in the Weapon Of Choice sense, which is that it theoretically says something about the person who uses a shield (which is already pretty rare in fiction). Now, frankly, most of these Weapon Of Choice tropes are filled with ZCEs and generally poorly defined as tropes (Character X uses a shield!), but I think there is something to be said about characters who use shields. My personal instinct says "soldiery".

That said the description is meandering and pointless. I would cut all of it and start from scratch.

edited 11th Oct '14 8:51:27 PM by Clarste

"Anyone who makes use of a shield should qualify." — Sabre_Justice, in YKTTW

So it doesn't look like the original definition was really any more specific than "this character uses a shield."

And shields in fiction are everywhere. We don't need a list of every time there is a shield in fiction any more than we need a list of any other weapon, or animal, or a list of everyone who wears boots or has eyes.

I guess that shields, like many other weapon tropes, are just Garnishing the Story ("cuz shields are better than no shields").

It's part of the spectacle thing, particularly in combat stories, where someone wielding any kind of weapon, including shields, would be notable and interesting in their own ways. Obviously a sword wielder would be distinguishable from a hammer wielder - and that makes weapons part of those characterization tropes.

That really depends on the setting and the series. Some fantasy series shields just do not exist at all or at least do not exist for named characters in a Shields Are Hardly Heroic way with the occasional odd man out in the party who actually does.

Then you get into Sci-Fi or post gunpowder-modern series and games in which shields appear IE some Mecha series like in Mobile Suit Gundam some mech use shields or Beam Shields in the standard held in the off hand style.

Or the appearance of various shields and Riot Shields in some games like Uncharted 3 as a usable equipment slot which tends to add some odd mechanics and weapon restrictions or World Of Warcraft in which you have a block chance for each attack and a block stat for the amount of damage blocked when you do.

I personally wouldn't mind restricting this to those restrictions or splitting the trope into 3 or more specific tropes while labeling Shields Used In An Appropriate Setting as chairs or 'inverted or notable' examples only like Heroes Prefer Swords. While this can be an index of shield tropes like these and Shield Surf and Shield-Bearing Mook and so on, it does not seem to exist and this is a very good name for it.

edited 13th Oct '14 4:51:01 AM by Memers

There are certainly tropes about shields and I wouldn't mind an index of them. That's far more useful than an index of everyone ever.

As for hammers vs. swords, in most media it doesn't really matter what they're wielding. They swing whatever they have around. People wind up dead, and the weapon doesn't matter. That's the case in 90% of a weapon occurring.

Now, there are tropes about certain weapons. For example, there's the Chainsaw Wielding Madman that seems to pop up all over the horror genre. That doesn't mean that we need a list over every person who uses a chainsaw. They aren't all part of a trope and they certainly aren't all part of the same trope. That's what Chainsaw Good is. It's lumped all mentions of chainsaws together until all the tropes are gone.

edited 13th Oct '14 5:33:16 AM by shimaspawn

Chainsaw Good should be a supertrope to more specific subtropes. Uses of chainsaws in combat have very specific combat styles, camera angles, dramatic chainsaw startup, etc. Those are very trope worthy and Chainsaw Wielding Madman is a more specific subtrope about the personality of the user in addition to the combat style, something that not all chainsaw users are IE the chainsaw wielding Magical Girl in Is This A Zombie is not.

Making an effort to YKTTW the subtropes to all these are probably what needs to be focused on the most. But any choice of a weapon outside of the truly stereotypical weapons like a sword or gun, outside of specific settings, means something and consciously chosen by the creators.

It might be camera angles, lethality, fighting styles, how they look with the weapon, Rule of Cool, personality stereotype, Standard Fantasy Weapons Stereotypes etc and those are just as trope worthy as visual clothing tropes, specific large patterns to that that are large enough would be candidates for subtropes.

edited 13th Oct '14 7:03:42 AM by Memers

See, that's the thing. Just because an object has tropes associated with it doesn't mean that just using the thing is a trope. We have lots of tropes about chairs, but just because you sit in one doesn't mean that sitting in it is trope worthy.

Find the actual tropes that use the weapon instead of just listing every time someone picks one up.

The fact they picked one up isn't this though, just picking one up randomly or in the middle of a fight and yada is something completely different.

It is their Primary Weapon Of Choice, they chose it and trained with it, no matter how non-standard it might be. It is ingrained in their character, their character art and other things to where it is their signature weapon, with a bit of a Video Game subtype of signature weapon class.

I agree that explaining the stuff the weapon typically follow on the page is good but any very specific patterns, like Chainsaw Wielding Madman, are just subtropes

Swords, shields and guns in the appropriate setting are generic enough to be not notable, I admit, but almost everything else is well above chairs.

I might be a little too hard headed on this but a character's weapon is usually a very big deal from a character design perspective.

edited 13th Oct '14 10:43:48 AM by Memers

But that designation doesn't apply to 90% of the people who primarily weird shields in fiction. Or any weapon of choice really. Most of the time their shield could be a sword, or an axe, or a bowler hat and it wouldn't matter or change the character in the least. They just had to give them some weapon and happened to pick a shield.

Most of the time giving a character a different weapon than another character is because it's easier to distinguish who he is when fighting is happening than anything to do with their personality.

Character's weapons tend to be slapped on afterthoughts in most media. Hammers, axes, clubs and swords are swung exactly the same 90% of the time and seem to have the same effect. It's the equivalent of a hair cut. Sometimes it's a trope, but 90% of the time they just needed the character to have hair.

edited 13th Oct '14 11:03:32 AM by shimaspawn

Shields are actually relatively rare in fiction, because they don't look very heroic (unless you're going for extremely old school heroism). When's the last time you saw a swashbuckler with a buckler? While in real life shields were basic staple of pre-modern warfare, in fiction they're reserved entirely for people whose character revolves around having a shield, or faceless soldiers in the background. It's more notable than the difference between an axe and a mace because you generally don't hit things with shields, you block with them. This creates an entirely different behavioral dynamic.

Frankly all the write-up's focus on hitting people with shields and whatnot takes away from what makes shields interesting.

edited 13th Oct '14 1:44:32 PM by Clarste

Honestly, shields show up constantly in the media I tend to deal with. So much that they're as generic as having armour. They're everywhere. I've seen quite a few swashbucklers with actual bucklers, and recently at that. They're generic.

They really are not that common for non-mooks especially in certain genres. I think I can count the number of times I have seen a shield used in anime on my fingers. And video games, especially Japanese ones, they are just as rare or are just used as a Stat Stick and not visible on models, any blocking is typically done by parries.

edited 13th Oct '14 2:30:21 PM by Memers

Well, they're common as anything in western media, and even in Eastern media, when they show up, they generally don't add much of anything to the work. Probably why they don't show up too often in works that tend towards simplicity. And even if they aren't common, it still doesn't make them tropes. Being rare isn't the same as being a trope.

Well, if it's only a trope in anime or whatever then it's only a trope in anime. Doesn't mean it's not a trope. But seriously, not a single member of the Fellowship in Lord of the Rings used a shield. Standard fantasy simply doesn't like them very much.

Mooks are of course a different story, but if only mooks have shields that's a trope (a la Helmets Are Hardly Heroic). Or if only disciplined soldiers have shields that's a trope. You can't let your own myopia of happening to enjoy shield-friendly genres blind you to the fact that there is something in how they're used.

Shields are also more common in video games where leaving an arm empty goes against every min-maxer bone in a gamer's body.

edited 13th Oct '14 2:57:58 PM by Clarste

But it's not even a trope in anime. It's just rare in anime. That doesn't make it a trope. I watch a lot of anime. It treats shields the exact same chairsy way that western media does, they just show up less often.

Rarity is not the same as being a trope.

Yes, there are tropes about shields and you're pointing a few of them out, but just using a shield is not a trope.

edited 13th Oct '14 3:08:36 PM by shimaspawn