Big Three Super-Villains

I don't think identifiable is good enough to be the sole judgement, but if it were, that's wouldn't be a bad list, though Doom would be highly arguable.

That said, Superman is WAY more known than Batman, for the simple reason that if people think of a super-hero, the arch-type is Superman. Cape, tights, square jaw, bullet proof, flight, super strength. People know who Superman is even if they don't know his name. There's sod all characters in ANY medium who are that embedded in the collective mind of humanity.

I think that may have been true once, but nowadays I'd think, internationally, Batman is a lot more recognizable, and definitely more popular overall.

I think Superman has gone beyond just being popular or recognised; he's more than that. He's the very idea of Super-hero. Batman is a super-hero without powers. That he has no powers is only significant because the idea of superheroes is having powers BECAUSE it's based on Superman. He IS super-heroes.

More people may know who Batman is (though I'd have my doubts) but Superman is better known.

I mostly see what you're saying, Anteres, and, while I'm not 100% certain I agree, I'd say it's a valid point. That being said, thanks both to the Nolan movies (and the hype surrounding the unfortunate death of Heath Ledger) and the bewildering proliferation of Batman animated series (especially given the meteoric popularity of Batman: the Animated Series and Batsy's prominent role in Justice League), I'd say that Batman has far more exposure in modern media. And by extension, the Joker is vastly more prominent in peoples' minds than Lex is.

That being said, yeh, Superman is the superhero, and Lex is his greatest foe.

And just like Superman is THE superhero, I'd argue that Doom is THE supervillain. Awesomely menacing Kirby design, peerless intellect, iron will, towering arrogance, and amazing personal power that lets him throw down with entire teams of superheroes. Magneto definitely has his chops as a villain, but he suffers from wishy-washiness and, frankly, inconsistent writing, which is why I would put him below DOOM in the villain sweepstakes.

Doom is perhaps the pre-eminent supervillain - among comic book readers. But I don't think he has the popular recognition that Magneto has among the general public.

Yeah, in terms of public appeal, it probably goes like this:

The Joker
Magneto
Loki
Lex Luthor
General Zod

And Loki is easily gaining ground on Magneto.

edited 14th Mar '14 7:49:29 AM by KingZeal

I think the classic Batman villains are a lot more memorable than you give them credit for. And despite the film exposure Zod isn't that famous.

The only Superman villains anyone knows is Lex and Zod. And he's the Evil-Superman. I'm not saying he's Catwoman famous, but he's known.

The only Batman villains with any sort of mainstream clout are the ones that appeared in the Burtonmacherverse. And of them, I'd only argue that Joker, Bane, Catwoman and Two-Face have a good reputation.

edited 14th Mar '14 10:37:13 AM by KingZeal

Megatron is more recognizable that Doom or Magneto and Bluto is definitely up there. I just chose bomb queen because of relative success. I don't think Lucifer himself had an indomitable aura that large, in spite of his power level. As for Johnny, no he's not quite as well known but he is a pioneer in an art style and paved the way for other cult followings like Invader Zim.

It's that third wheel for DC I'm having trouble coming up with. I suppose it would be Luthor, Joker and Deathstroke, thanks to the Teen Titans cartoon, but its also the most boring trio listed. Normal rich guy, normal crazy guy, slightly abnormal guy. Time trapper should be up there, if DC would write its legion better and I think the less said about post Kirby Fourth World the better.

It would probably be better if we could agree to what the big three actually meant. Who are the big 3 superheroes here? I gave my supervillain response to each of the big 3 superheroes I know about.

That's why I listed three each for the "Big Two" universes, along with other criteria way back on Page 1.

Three for all of comics is rather silly.

edited 14th Mar '14 1:15:45 PM by KingZeal

DC has Lex Luthor and the Joker. Marvel has Magneto and Doctor Doom. That much is obvious. The only problem is the third. If I had to choose I'd say that Sinestro would be the third villain in a DC Villains Trinity. It shouldn't be another Superman or Batman villain and Wonder Woman's Rogues Gallery has never been very strong. On the Marvel side of things I'd say that at this point it's Loki. He's a major antagonist for the flagship Team book of the Marvel Universe and the archenemy of one of their major superheroes.

DC: Lex Luthor, Joker and Sinestro. Marvel: Magneto, Doctor Doom and Loki.

Hrm. Kind of curious as to why Magneto would be considered to have more mainstream appeal than Doom; aside from X-Men: First Class (which is in an odd little zone thanks to prequel-ness- Magneto wasn't exactly a villain in it, and wasn't even readily identifiable as Magneto to those who were unfamiliar with X-Lore until late in the movie, at least as far as my admittedly faulty memory goes), he hasn't even had a cameo (at least to the best of my knowledge) since 2006.

Doc Doom, on the other hand, has had four spotlight episodes in the Avengers Assemble! cartoon (and one season premiere spotlight episode in the notably better Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes), which, while not exactly a starring movie role, at least keeps him pretty firmly in the public eye. Combine that with being a flagship villain for the whole of Marvel for many, many years, and I'd rank him higher than Magneto.

-*shrug* No idea, really, but that's my reasoning, at least. And I'll readily acknowledge the Hiddleston effect as skyrocketing Loki's popularity, although I'm not sure he's made it to the top spot just yet.

Bear in mind that the general public hasn't read a single comic since they were twelve, if even that. Doom was in two rubbish films that nobody cared about, while Magneto was the central antagonist of one of the most successful pre-MCU superhero franchises. Anything else is almost irrelevant.

edited 16th Mar '14 11:05:16 AM by imadinosaur

Do people watch Avengers Assemble? From what I've heard it's not very popular. Magneto's also had exposure in almost every X-Men adaptation.

edited 16th Mar '14 6:23:38 PM by 940131

The previous X Men movies are still fairly popular, and way more popular than the Avengers cartoons. I still see jokes about Magneto on shows like Conan and such. I don't think Doom is completely unknown to the general non-comic book reading public, but it'll still mostly be the geekier types who recognize him.

edited 16th Mar '14 5:32:54 PM by supergod

And the current gatekeepers of pop-culture (persons in their 30s - 40s) likely grew up with the 90s X-Men Animated Series.

Okay, I'm in an odd spot where I follow more adaptations and read about comics more than I actually read comics, so it's possible my perceptions will vary somewhat from both comics fans and the rest of the planet at large without actually quite being exactly in the transitional area between them, but here's my take.

Focusing on iconic villains rather than just recognisable villains, it seems to make sense to look at what the reversals of the archetypes of the big three heroes are.

• The Anti-Cape: Doctor Doom. Superman is the archetypal superhero because he has the name, the appearance, the personality, the power set... he fits the role in every way. Doom has a blatant villain name, dresses the part, acts like an egotistical megalomaniac, and is a scientist sorcerer who already runs his own country. Luther is maybe halfway there overall, at best. Osborn/Goblin is somewhere in between the two.
• The Anti-Cowl: Loki. A solidly villainous character, but a sympathetic one, with a tendency to do things that are at least in passing nebulously heroic on account of his psychologically-complex personal motivations. Compare to Batman, who is solidly heroic and clearly sympathetic with a tendency to do things that are superficially villainous, again on account of his psychologically-complex personal motivations. Magneto could probably compete for the role, but I feel like he's divided his time between it and being an Anti-Cape, he doesn't seem a conceptually-unified (in his personality, motives, and powers), and for whatever reason he clearly doesn't have the same level or quantity of passionate fandom. Also I haven't found any stories he's in that entice me to read them. :P For what it's worth, though, that's also true of Doom, which should say something about how compelling/recognisable Doom is.
• The Anti-Everyman: Joker. My momentum for vociferousness is running low, so I'll just say that the obvious opposite of the Everyman is From Nobody to Nightmare, both have to deal with an apparent lack of resources compared to their opponents, have relatively few but very personal guiding principles behind their actions, and, interestingly, use abundant wit as a psychological weapon and defence mechanism.

edited 13th Apr '14 2:02:40 PM by Noaqiyeum

That's a very interesting and well-thought out categorization, although I could also see the characters being reversed in those first two groupings.

Loki is superpowered and comes from aliens/a mythological pantheon/aliens who inspired a mythological pantheon, and often wants to conquer Earth. This makes him seem like an Anti-Cape in the sense that he's the evil opposite of characters like Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and of course his own brother, Thor, who are outsiders who protect the Earth. As you say, Loki does Pet the Dog and is a complex character, which contrasts with how The Cape is usually a comparably morally spotless character.

And conversely, Doom is Crazy-Prepared and gets the drop on opponents through a combination of superior intelligence and technological wizardry. This is the method that The Cowl uses, generally being a Badass Normal practicing Crimefighting with Cash (note, I know Doom does use magic on occasion). Also, Doom seems to match the personality of The Cowl in being an arrogant loner as well as a public celebrity (Doom is the ruler of a country rather than a Rich Idiot With No Day Job).

I'd also see Magneto as more of an Anti-Cape, since he's superpowered (to an almost Physical God level) and is motivated by a desire to protect the innocent- albeit in a twisted, Moral Myopia kind of way.

Spider-Man is probably the Quintessential everyman, and other characters I'd see fitting are Daredevil, Hawkeye, and Green Arrow. These characters are street level with a not-particularly famous civilian identity. Some have powers, others don't, but all tend to make use of gadgetry they've invented themselves.

Joker is a good example of an Anti-Everyman. Spidey has a huge number of opponents (i.e. Shocker and Trapster) who rely on homemade gadgets. Daredevil enemy Bullseye is also a good Anti-Everyman and appropriately masqueraded as Hawkeye. There's also a similar contrast in the less evil Spidey foe Boomerang.

I'd also cite Deadpool and his fenemy Taskmaster (note that Deadpool is presented as a counterpart to Spider-Man and is also frenemies with Bullseye).

edited 13th Apr '14 5:11:13 PM by Hodor

Thank you. :)

I think you're right about the arguability between Anti-Cape and Anti-Cowl. I think that's a consequence of the fact that the Cape and Cowl are themselves in many ways diametrically opposed; my thought had been that the Cowl is much like an Anti-Cape who is nevertheless an hero, and that the opposite of the antiheroic Cowl will be an anti-villain with certain commonalities with the Cape. So it's going to be a bit of argument over which traits link corresponding hero-types and villain-types.

I guess my thoughts have been along the lines that Capes and Anti-Capes are... overt, forceful, grandiose, and unambiguous, while Cowls and Anti-Cowls are covert, sneaky, practical, and underhanded. In that sense, I suppose Magneto is more like Doom, just with more sympathetic motivations.

Interestingly, for the most part I think archenemies don't tend to be in the same 'type'; Batman (Cowl) versus Joker (Anti-Everyman), Spider-man (Everyman) versus Osborn (Anti-Cape?), Thor (Cape) versus Loki (Anti-Cowl)... Doom and Superman being exceptions (though I think Luther may drift into Anti-Cowl territory on occasion).

I agree with your list of Everymen (though I'm not very familiar with Bullseye). :) If we were going to think of the Big Three morally-neutral characters I would definitely list Deadpool as the Neutral-Everyman, considering the number of commonalities he has with both Spider-man and Joker.