Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

I have to disagree on two points. The asari are not the only ones to have their planets totally invaded, you get to witness the same destruction happening to the turians and to Earth, and offscreen we have the full destruction of Dekunna. As for D&D, yes the drow are Always Chaotic Evil, but they also basically control the Underdark and are high-level antagonists, so they are clearly effective and powerful.

edited 5th Jun '14 5:55:16 PM by BlueNinja0

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

The Sororitas from 40k also generally got a fair deal in the fluff until the infamous "Khornate Knights" episode. 40k does actually have some quite strong female characters - although they rarely get models. The Sisters did get neglected in the crunch, but that's because they simply don't sell. Of course, one could argue that if GW promoted them and didn't make us buy an all-fucking-metal army then that might not be the case.

Mat Ward's writing of the setting really does have some issues around gender. I mean, when even frickin' /tg/ is calling you out for it...

edited 5th Jun '14 5:02:43 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

I'd say it's not a universal trope, but it's fairly common.

However, there's the other factor that societies that segregate roles by gender tend to be portrayed as losing because of their hidebound rules, rather than anything else. Many of those societies you list are being defeated by integrated armies, not male-only armies.

A brighter future for a darker age.

If I were you, I would hide that on spoilers, with the ME chat restriction. But opposite from what you said, the Turians specially plant a stalwart defense and the humans you get to rescue

Well my point is not that they are defeated by men. But rather that they are defeated with ease far too often. Heck some of the things they are defeated by do not even have a definite gender. Just see it rather often myself.

Question is if it is seen often enough in other works to even start considering it as some sort of minor trope, if such a thing even exists.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

I also suspect in at least some works, the culture with rigid gender roles is being used as an example of why said roles are bad, and to make it more obvious they flip some of those roles from what we're used to.

A brighter future for a darker age.

Honestly, looking through your examples it seems to more be 'powerful people who aren't the protagonist are defeated far to easily.' Which seems to be universal as a trope regardless of gender.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Part of why I differentiate from "They are the Elite Mooks, but Mooks at the end of the day" is when the author portrays them as their "strong female representation". By either speaking it in the game (The EDF forces all praise and say the Valkyries have always saved the day), or say it OO Cly (Via tweeter, or blogs). Kinda like Stephanie Meyer swearing that Bella is a strong female character.

But again, I suspect this might be just heavily biased, or something.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Anthropic Principle is a trope for a reason. Still, it still sucks to see anyone who isn't a protagonist get stomped quite thoroughly.

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"

The turians are still losing, and badly. From the mission, you can see an area roughly the size of Europe on fire. The destruction on Earth in the final mission is equal or greater than the destruction you see on Thessia, the only difference is that you're not there to rescue the asari because they're a pack of arrogant bitches. IMO, the asari aren't getting curbstomped any worse than any of the other races, but equal to it.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

I am not very comfortable discussing the ME 3 due to its restriction. Suffice it to say, there is enough cause to believe, or dispute, that Asari do not fare really well in an open war, compared to the other races.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Feminist Frequency has finally posted a new Tropes vs Women video on Women as Background Decoration. I would have posted this in the Femfreq thread, but well...it's locked. So I'll post it here.

I do agree with a lot she is saying, especially on how the media you consume does influence you even if just to solidify existing beliefs, but especially for the topic of this thread the responsibility of creators to shape their creations and what perceptions they give off:

Example: The very rape like overtones of the Tomb Raider reboot, probably unintentional, but still irresponsible.

The only thing I will disagree with her on is I don't think having overtly sexual background characters is in itself a bad thing.

1) Historical accuracy- mobsters gained their power in part by prostitution. Prostitution is joked as the world's oldest profession. Some historical settings would be amiss or just flat wrong without that representation even if just in part.

2) Sex is not a bad thing. If you want people to feel more comfortable with the nude body and to expand their comfort zone to be more honest and open about sexual dialoge, various styles of clothing, and various forms of expressing sexuality, covering up or eliminating chances of demonstrating this normalcy is a bad thing.

3) Immersive environments require different tools to create that. This is sorta tied to historical accuracy but I have a better idea of what kind of man Kratos is for example due to his interactions with women. I can tell the culture's sexual priorities and values by what kind of people and oppertunitities are in it.

Which leads to the most important part:

4) The ability to make commentary or help reshape an ideal by using these mechanics and tools.

This seems to be where most video games seem to drop the ball, but they have great potential to have these things in them while expressing some sort of judgment or appraisal about it.

Like the movie Taxi Driver. Yeah, Jodi Foster is playing an underaged hooker. But her presence is being used to convey a message and make the audience think.

A manga/anime example would be Shiguri because it covers all my points above including the depiction of violence. Shiguri is based on a real life crazy Japanese leader and faithfully shows some of the sexual and violent practices accepted by the culture of the time, and again makes the audience think about why these practices were discontinued and how we really don't want to go back to times like that.

The immersive quality of video games is ripe for this sort of building and questioning of cultural norms and expressions. But it has to be done well.

Spec Ops The Line was a successful game in this aspect to me.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

That's true, but in many of these games this is the only way women are portrayed. They are never given any depth. Never given any sympathy. At least in Assain's Creed the prostitues are treated as sympathetic characters that you protect and ally yourselves with. They have backstory beyond just a prop to fuck and kill.

The same can't be said for a lot of other games.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I still stand by my thoughts that, in general, females or anything showing any effeminate qualities tend to be portrayed in general, in a negative light.

Qualities like Elfeminate are seen as "feminizing" and are immediately regarded as a sign of weakness, in an ample amount of popular games. Fostered by the companies themselves, too.

edited 20th Jun '14 9:16:11 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

A pretty fair and balanced article yes. I guess she's been reading the pointers her critics have been tying to brick and throwing at her window.

She makes a lot of very valid points especially about how media can influence one's world view, even if the saying 'you're been influence if you don't think you can be influenced' has shades of a self-fulfilling ad hominem to it.

One thing I would of appreciated is some counterexamples of sexually depicted females she found non objectifying. There is an undertone of sex negativeness to her works that sexualisation of women in media is inherently regressive to women.

edited 23rd Jun '14 7:14:27 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

People keep saying she's sex negative and I have to wonder if we're even watching the same videos because I'm not coming out of any of her videos having got that impression at all. I mean seriously, you get sex negative from her saying having women there as mere sexual object isn't okay? I've heard it enough that I can't take that as a valid claim anymore.

Imma just gonna put this here...

This might be the best Trigger Warning ever of all time:

Also also Sally Strange wins the comment of the always award with this gem:

Also x3, if I have one major gripe with Anita Sarkeesian, it's that her claim of "tropes are lazy storytelling herpderp" is nonsense, and it completely ignores the storytelling reality that Tropes Are Not Bad. When you get right down to it, they're damn near impossible to avoid. If you try to dodge them at every move, you'll come out with an abstract, pretentious mess that masturbates to its own Scenery Porn, which will still be Chock Full a' Tropes!

edited 23rd Jun '14 9:28:15 PM by chi_mangetsu

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy

I don't think she's saying writers/developers need to avoid tropes, as that is literally impossible. She just wants more thought to be put into it because certain tropes happen a whole freaking lot. To the point that characters like Princess Peach getting kidnapped is basically an excuse plot and could be filled in by Bowser doing something less creepy like stealing a magic object or her crown instead and the story of the game would be unchanged.

I did see an idea on Tumblr once about the game plot being Bowser and Mario just setting up a game to keep Bowser's kids occupied for the day and Peach was basically a babysitter, which while still putting her in a traditionally feminine role had much less creepy implications. That and the idea also sounded more fun than yet another kidnapping 'rescue the princess' story. Everyone's friends and no one gets hurt.

I mean seriously, people on tumblr can come up with a different story from what we usually see, so really it shouldn't be that difficult for a game company's writers.

edited 23rd Jun '14 10:48:08 PM by aceofspades

Dis response, tho.

KiteTales: More Than a Damsel in a Dress: A Response

Kite Tales kind of knocks it out of the park there.

[Up] In fairness, that's less a different story and more of a theoretical analysis of an existing theory.

edited 23rd Jun '14 10:57:07 PM by chi_mangetsu

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy

Ace: I find her views leading towards sex negative feminism yes. That's not intended as a attack towards her just an observation.

I don't believe she views sex as something evil needing to be repressed or anything. Just that she seems to view activities and subject matter such as prostitution, pornography, erotic dancing, and fiction depicting female characters in a sexual light in general as inherently disempowering and harmful to women.

Of course this is just going via the video series tropes vs women which focuses mainly on the problems with the depiction of women in video games. Maybe she will get around to fleshing her views in greater detail.

edited 24th Jun '14 12:09:09 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid

I've seen that video response before and it's full of fanwank and ignores the Doylist way Sarkeesian analyzes video games. She does not "knock it out of the park."

Also, no, it wasn't a theoretical analysis. It was some folks discussing a plot they'd like to see rather than a repeat of the usual. They were just tossing around some ideas and that's how the whole "elaborate role play to keep the kids occupied" plot came up.

She analyzes the way they're commonly used in stories as negative and disempowering, you mean. That's a different thing than whether those are inherently disempowering in and of themselves.(which is a topic for another thread. Especially prostitution and pornography, which actually are in real life practice exploitative. And I think prostitution does have its own thread?)

edited 24th Jun '14 12:23:07 AM by aceofspades

Prostitution is no more inherently exploitative than any other job. This is a very sexist view, based on the assumption that no woman would choose to sell sex.

A remark from a middle-aged Twilight fan relative of mine tipped me off that the Damsel in Distress character isn't actually as disempowering as it seems at first. Coming from a rather messed up marriage, her attitude was that it's surely nice to fantasize of a genuine Knight in Shining Armor (or shining epidermis, for that matter) to love and protect her. This got me thinking that the usual gender division in fiction, particularly in action-adventure stories, actually plays to both the male and female empowerment fantasies - men get to be strong, so as to defeat the dragon and Always Save the Girl, while women get to be important, so as to actually have a guy willing to risk life and limb for them.

There's no story where the hero instead goes for the dragon's hoard and spends it on a bender in the local brothel, even though that would also be a male power fantasy. Because it offers nothing for the girl. Conversely, regardless of whether a damsel in distress patiently waits for the hero to make with the rescue, or actively works on her own way out, the fact is that there is a rescue, and that she's important and valued enough for people to risk their lives for her. In such a female fantasy, the damsel may tolerate, even revel in being "distressed", at least for a while; but if there's one thing you'll likely never see in an adventure story, it's her being ditched.

---

On another note, particularly about gaming, the vast majority of hidden object games star and involve quite proactive and powerful women, the Dark Parables series being a favorite of mine. Now, the fact that these are thoughtful puzzles rather than plain shooters may imply that women are wiser in the eyes of marketing, but I honestly have no problem playing them either way. Overall, when you add the variable gender protagonists of most RPG's, as well as the wide variety of straight up leading action girls, and it seems to me that the frequent complaints holding that women have little proactive agency in video games are focusing on a rather narrow piece of the market.

edited 24th Jun '14 3:04:56 AM by indiana404

Older twilight fan wanting to be saved...here is my take on this:

I completely understand why she would hold that view. But that doesn't make it healthy.

Hear me out a second:

Divorce is rampant. More and more women are finding themselves to be single parents either by abandonment or early divorce.

As a single mother myself, I know just how hard it is and not just economically. You're harassed or condescended to. Filling out legal forms may or may not turn into an ordeal. If the ex is still in the picture chances are they're more of a problem then a coparent.

When you are doing it all on your own, the idea of an Edward Cullen, a rich, handsome man from a very loving and supportive family who is unconditionally and eternally devoted to loving you and protecting you is damned appealing!

He is everything these women probably don't have or he is the most perfect combination of these things, even before you add the supernatural element.

I do not think being attracted to this sort of character is inherently bad. Edward Cullen is a poorly written creepo in my mind, but Prince Charming is a more saner example.

Anywho- point is the character in itself isn't the problem. The problem is the social problems we have that have forced some women into such conditions they feel this way and need a knight, fantastical or otherwise, to come and save them even if just in a book.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Quite. But that's valid for escapist fiction in general, no different than superheroes being viewed as outlets for pent up rage over social and criminal injustice. While addressing such problems in real life is indeed more important, I see nothing wrong with fiction pandering to audience fantasies. Some may feel that girls need role models, but I'm more interested in what girls want - and when a female character written by a female writer gets a zillion female fans, despite, or just as likely, because of the narrative tending to put her in distress for said creepo to save, I'll take that as a subtle hint of what most women would like to read about. Or write about, for that matter, given there's actually a wide variety of fiction written by women.

For instance, the urban fantasy and cozy mystery genres happen to have a mostly female writing base, with leading authors actually dominating the book market altogether, and being frequently adapted to screen as well. Ignoring such successes in order to blast the sexism in the latest Michael Bay boomfest makes no more sense to me, than does complaining about the lack of NRA-approved realistic firearms for Ken dolls, while conveniently forgetting about every other action figure franchise out there.

Simply put, fiction has a target audience. Even as simple a combination as "Girls with Guns" can be considered a genre in its own right, with fans and detractors galore. And it's perfectly fine if not everyone agrees with the trappings of the genre, be it for political or personal reasons. To each her own, I say.

edited 24th Jun '14 5:49:04 AM by indiana404