Unclear Description: Humanoid Abomination

So, what, all abominations must think in Blue-and-Orange Morality terms in order for one to qualify?

edited 16th Feb '13 6:51:43 AM by Serocco

Not technically, since an alien with a mostly incomprehensible way of thinking may still follow something that approximates our morals.

edited 16th Feb '13 8:30:48 AM by AnotherDuck

Example: I'm mostly certain that Tomie is an Humanoid Abomination, despite that the only inhuman thing about her psychologically seems to be being inhumanly shallow. Nonetheless, she causes Spooky Photographs (and paintings); unconsciously provokes delusions, obsessions, and outbreaks of violence; is a source of Body Horror on her own and inducing it in those who somehow ingest or absorb portions of her body; and (to my knowledge) is never given any explanation or backstory, human or otherwise.

Tomie causes all the things that a Lovecraft horror would. The difference is that she looks completely human.

We have slightly more "brazen" example in the Slender Man, a faceless stalker in a business suit who causes paranoia (among other things).

Compared to that, I can see why Alucard might not count, 'cause he has motives and he doesn't cause everyone that sorta pain.

Yes.

Also, bump.

Also, I started a fledgeling YKTTW for Monstrous Humanoid.

Does every discussion thread have to become so convoluted and overblown that everyone involved loses sight of the original point? Humanoid Abomination is supposed to be an Eldritch Abomination in a (vaguely) human guise. The misuse comes from people thinking it means any powerful and unclearly defined being with a human form. Just like what is happening in this thread. Its a simple fix. Would the character qualify as an Eldritch Abomination? They count. They just have weird powers and look off? They dont count. There are probably several dozen different tropes that could accommodate them, but not this one. Trying to decide if X character fits the trope by constantly moving the goalposts until they do only adds to the confusion. Keep it simple people.

edited 22nd Feb '13 8:18:19 PM by OmegaKross

I agree.

That's a bad comparison because Eldritch Abomination is just as broken if not more so. Nonetheless, I agree; I'm just waiting for someone to signal it's all right for me to swap in the new description.

Go ahead with the description swap.

Done.

I also started clearing out the examples; I got through Anime and Manga and Comic Books. (There are a lot of examples I just commented-out, since I wasn't sure whether they qualified or not, and others I just deleted. I hope that's right.)

My personal policy is to ax anything that doesn't look correct.

I can do that too.

EDIT: Now through Live-Action TV.

edited 23rd Feb '13 2:04:31 PM by Noaqiyeum

Now through Tabletop Games.

OP here. I thought the discussion had ended? Oh well, I like the new description.

I saw what you did there, efay. :D Danke!

Aaaaaaaand done with the examples, I think. (Extraintrovert, Arcades Sabboth, and Master Ghandalf helped.) Do we need to clean wicks, too, or is that a clean-as-you-see-them job?

edited 1st Mar '13 3:09:00 PM by Noaqiyeum

Might as well do a wick cleaning. Here's the list.

...This Is Gonna Suck.

Starting on the As.

I don't quite understand the change in descriptions.

edited 2nd Mar '13 11:09:33 AM by Serocco

The wick clean-up is going to be too time-consuming for me to do on my own. I haven't even finished the A section yet. X(

Could you be more specific?

Why was the Tall Man from Phantasm taken out from that page? I mean, he is pretty much film's most prominent Humanoid Abomination, given that he's a horribly powerful other-dimensional thing that looks like Angus Scrimm in a suit.

edited 8th Mar '13 8:46:00 AM by tbok1992

It isn't removed; it's commented-out. I don't know who that is, and there wasn't enough context provided to determine whether or not he fits the new description. (Claiming he's the most pre-eminent example in film sounds a bit like Fandom Myopia.)

A glance at the Phantasm page doesn't really provide anything more suggestive, though. And there are a number of tropes for horribly-powerful humans or hominids from other dimensions that are not abominations. That said, as the more knowledgeable about the work you're welcome to elaborate on how he does fit the definition.

edited 9th Mar '13 12:22:08 AM by Noaqiyeum

I think that was supposed to be "the most preeminent example in the film", not "in film in general". But I could be wrong. It's been a while since I saw any of those movies, but I do seem to remember that there were some other critters that might be borderline examples.

"Edit: Nothing in Bleach is an Eldritch Abomination or Humanoid Abomination. They still think like humans and don't break your brain or anything."

I'd say Aizen came pretty close after fusing with the Hogyoku. He had a Blue-and-Orange Morality view, was so insanely powerful ordinary humans were vaporized by being close to him and regular Soul Reapers and humans with supernatural powers couldn't sense him unless he let them. In his final form - which was pretty abominable - he claimed to have transcended the line between human and divine, and Ichigo only beat him because he ascended to an even higher level and then put all that power into one attack. In the following arc, Ichigo also noted his friends were still traumatized by their encounter with Aizen.

Another Anime example I think should be added: the Evangelion Units from Neon Genesis Evangelion: they are humanoid, but cloned from extraterrestrial physics-defying monsters, and without the armour that limits their power can become very monstrous.

If we go through with the Monstrous Humanoid trope, then this should be trimmed back to Eldritch Abominations in human(oid) form and everything else should be relocated to Monstrous Humanoid.

Also, would Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII qualify, seeing how was infused with Jenova's cells as a fetus - making him a mix of Artificial Human and Half-Human Hybrid, by Advent Children has essentially become a mass of Jenova cells in human form; and he also sees the world in a Blue-and-Orange Morality fashion.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:30:37 AM by Arawn444

Sephiroth is too human in thought.

Septimus Heap's definition states an example of Humanoid Abomination "may have started out as a human" and "even if it was once a human, it isn't any longer", and the current definition drafted by Arha reads "In some cases, they actually were human until they went beyond the pale". A human who pulls a Grand Theft Me on an Eldritch Abomination while retaining human form - and conversely an Eldritch Abomination that pulls a Grand Theft Me on a human while retaining human form - should qualify as a type of Humanoid Abomination, and Sephiroth counts as both depending on whether you think Sephiroth or Jenova is the one in the driver's seat. Sephiroth's humanish method of thought can be explained because in the end he used to think of himself as a human before his Face–Heel Turn.

Furthermore, on Page 1 it reads thusly:

To qualify for this trope, a character must exhibit at least three of the following:

1. Is the character's humanoid form merely a disguise or covering for something more along the line of an Eldritch Abomination? Would seeing this true form drive a human mad? Is it too alien to comprehend?

Check. At the Northern Crater, Sephiroth outright states that his human form is A Form You Are Comfortable With that he intends to eventually discard, and after he completely assimilates Jenova he undergoes two transformations - Bizarro Sephiroth◊ and Safer Sephiroth◊ - far more in line with a traditional Eldritch Abomination. In Advent Children, Word of God stated he was even more powerful than he was in Final Fantasy VII, and in other material he has starred in he creeps people out. For example: Firion: "You make me shiver... what are you?!"

2. Do they have other madness-inducing properties?

Check. He broke Cloud pretty badly in both the original game and Advent Children, and he was capable of creating mass illusions and hallucinations as well as telepathically controlling people infected with Jenova cells.

3. Are the character's motives or behaviour incomprehensible by any conceivable moral code? Are they somehow Above Good and Evil? Or conversely, if they are evil, is it more incidental than deliberate? (Meaning, is their goal something so far beyond us that harm to humans is a negligible side effect?)

Kind of. Sephiroth's ultimate goal, as he described it in Advent Children, amounts to "Eat the planet and use what's left to find other planets to devour." Getting revenge on Cloud for stopping him the first time is the icing on the cake.

4. Origins: Did they originate in some sort of Eldritch Location, such as another dimension or a rip in reality? Are they the offspring of, or otherwise created by, an Eldritch Abomination? Or are their origins unknown (due to Time Abyss, their alien nature, etc.)?

Double Check. Jenova is a shapeshifting, parasitic extraterrestrial creature of unknown origin that basically exists to devour planets. Sephiroth starts off as a Half-Human Hybrid infused with Jenova cells as a fetus, but later pulls a Grand Theft Me on Jenova itself. Jenova's will may or may not be influencing him, as his ultimate goal is to follow in its footsteps.

5. Are they a subject of, or connected to, a Cult or Religion of Evil?

Kind of. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo give off a pretty cultish vibe in Advent Children, and they are imperfect manifestations of Sephiroth created to resurrect him.

6. Do they use a Lovecraftian Superpower rather than conventional magic or typical superhero powers?

Kind of. The "Sephiroth" encountered throughout VII had a habit of dropping pieces of himself to kill the party, but that was Jenova's main body being remotely controlled by Sephiroth. Sephiroth himself, when fighting in Advent Children, utilized the Masamune - which at that point had become an extension of his body, but it's more or less implied that as long as Jenova's cells exist Sephiroth will never truly die.

7. Do they defy the fundamental laws of nature or magic?

Check. He successfully resisted being assimilated by the Lifestream twice and his plan involved devouring said Lifestream, which resulted in the WEAPONS being awakened. Even after his second death his very presence in the Lifestream started corrupting it. Since magic in the VII universe is the result of crystallized Lifestream and Sephiroth can use most magics without Materia due to the sheer amount of Lifestream he absorbed, he kinda defies the laws of magic as well.

8. If they are a villain, is the tone of the work deeply pessimistic about the possibility of them being defeated completely?

Check. Having a supernatural asteroid dropped on the world is about as completely defeated as one can get.

9. Is the genre of the story Cosmic Horror?

Check. Compared to the other Final Fantasy games, VII is definitely in the vein of Cosmic Horror.

edited 14th Mar '13 2:41:39 PM by Arawn444