Confusing. Should probably split.: Wronski Feint

Wronski Feint is an instance of Example as a Thesis gone horribly wrong. Five paragraphs of narrative, and it's not clear what the trope is. Scroll down to the examples, and we see what's so confusing. Apparently there are two, or perhaps three, different tropes being described:

1. Flying towards something and pulling away at the last second so the person following you crashes into it. (The actual "Wronski Feint".)
2. Doing the same with a missile so it destroys a target. (Probably a subtrope of the previous.)
3. Flying into a canyon so that a pursuer crashes trying to follow you.

I would recommend a split. Keep #1 and #2 as Wronski Feint, and move the canyon thing to another article.

And for Heaven's sake, rewrite to get rid of the Example as a Thesis.

edited 28th Jan '12 7:03:58 PM by Eric119

Canyon thing is definitely a different trope. Supporting a rewrite. It has a fair amount of inbounds, but less wicks than I would expect. May need a rename as well, but other options should also probably be explored.

edited 28th Jan '12 7:36:19 PM by Arha

I think they're all three basically the same thing. The trope is "move toward something at high speed, then dodge at the last second so your pursuer hits the obstacle". It doesn't make much difference whether the pursuer is an aircraft or a missile (though the latter would also fit under High-Speed Missile Dodge), and flying through a canyon or something is just an extended version of it where you do it with a whole bunch of things in a row, instead of one thing at a time.

The canyon thing tends to be a long involved chase scene. It's related, but it's not the same since it's not really supposed to be about dodging rather than the pursuers not being able to steer sharply enough.

The canyon thing isn't really a feint; the key to the Wronski move is that the pursuer isn't prepared for the pursued to break off suddenly, and crashes because he's taken by surprise. Meanwhile, the pilot pulling the feint knew what was coming all along - no surprise, no problem. In the canyon variant, both of them have to deal with an obstacle course, so it ends up being a display of how the hero is a better pilot than the guys chasing him, in a different way than the steering-away-from-a-wall example.

Try and Follow is a supertrope of the canyon trick.

^^ even when the pursued has flown the canyon before, and knows the layout, the scene is much more drawn-out. The "dodge faster than the guy behind me" version is usually climactic, white the canyon sub-trope tends to make up the whole Chase scene.

I read this as two tropes. The sudden dodge, and the canyon obstacle course.

Same here. I'd support a split.

edited 30th Jan '12 3:56:49 PM by troacctid

Yeah, examples of the canyon trick should be moved to Try and Follow and/or given their own Chase Scene trope. Although bear in mind that a lot of such scenes end with a Wronski Feint when the hero lures the pursuer into crashing into a jutting rockface or something.

Support a split. The Canyon one often ends with this, but it's improper to describe the entire chase that way.

When there's only one pursuer, yes. But when there's five or seven of them, the Wronski Feignt is used to dodge under bridges, around corners, and even into caves. Lots of little examples.

I'll explain logically; a Canyon chase usually has Wonski Fients, but not always. A Wonksi Fient has no requirement for Canyon Chases.

What are you explaining? That they aren't the same trope? I already said that.

Support making the canyon chase a separate trope, and good God yes that description needs trimming.

Also, while I'm here, would High-Speed Missile Dodge technically be a subtrope? If so, cleaning that up should probably also be on the agenda for this trope.

(Come to think of it, I believe that WF and HSMD is still mixed up on the Wing Commander page. Have to check that later.)

I support a split as noted above, and also a rename because I have no idea who this Wronski is. Somebody from Star Trek, I suppose?

^ Harry Potter, actually. Which just helps to illustrate why a name change might not be a bad idea.

Made a sandbox page for a new description. Feel free to improve.

I think if we need a whole paragraph explaining the Trope Namer, we should at least consider a rename. Not only is Harry Potter not quite that culturally omnipresent, but this term appears in one chapter of one book. It's not like Muggle that appears every few paragraphs.

Usage:

Used for Canyon and asteroid chase:

• Acrophobic Bird
• Asteroid Thicket
• Cutscene Power to the Max
• Ice Age
• Storm Hawks

Unclear:

• A Different Lesson
• Return Of The Jedi
• Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
• The Hunt For Red October
• The Stepbrother Sitch

Misused in General:

• Anime & Manga: Used for bait and switch tactics
• How To Train Your Dragon: Not actually used at all
• Number Two: Used for diving at the ground
• Project Gee Ke R: Misused for Try and Follow
• Transformers: Dark of the Moon: Misused for Try and Follow

Correct:

• Batman Beyond Return Of The Joker
• Blue Thunder
• Endless Conflict
• Explaining Your Power to the Enemy
• Freelancer
• Gargoyles
• High-Speed Missile Dodge
• Inertia Is a Cruel Mistress
• Low-Speed Chase
• New Jedi Order
• Pearl Harbor
• Terry and the Pirates
• The Long Road Home
• Too Fast to Stop
• Waterworld

Stretching the definition, not sure:

• Space Mines

Counting the canyon/asteroid chase (since they are technically correct as of this sampling), but not counting the unclear wicks:

Correct: 20 Incorrect: 5 (20% misuse)

64 wicks also seems a little low, but not to the point of major concern.

edited 7th Mar '12 7:51:34 AM by ccoa

Bump. Any opinions on the sandbox? Or on the level of misuse?

At least on the sandbox description, I find that one much more useful than the existing one on Main/.

I still think that the canyon dodge should be a separate trope entirely, if for no other reason than the current arrangement makes it too easy to put things in the wrong place (like was the case for Wing Commander, now fixed).

Well, it's not on the sandbox definition, so let's YKTTW that. I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: YKTTW draft for Canyon Chase.

EDIT EDIT: And hooked up a single prop crowner for the rename.

edited 31st Mar '12 7:15:35 AM by ccoa

Actually I believe it appears in at least three chapters of two books, off the top of my head. Possibly more.

Downvoted the rename crowner since I'm not quite sure how a rename would avoid the misuse shown in the linked wick check.

I didn't specificy how many chapters on the crowner, but I did say two books.

I'm neutral on the rename, I just feel it should be considered given that the explanation for the name is almost as long as the description of the trope.

There's been a holler to call this crowner, but I think it might be better to leave it open another day or so to make sure it's stabilized.