Must all girls be Action Girl?

Guile Heroes and Magnificent Bastard Anti Heroes are definitely more interesting than the typical Action Hero. I don't think I've seen many exemplary female versions of both, either, which would be nice.

edited 12th Nov '11 10:45:58 PM by tropetown

Yeeargh, both of those are hard to write because really, the chances are they would be able to finish the story far too quickly. So they would need equally brilliant antagonists, but those take intelligence to write and not many authors can't be arsed, it seems.

Actually, I've decided to try my hand at doing exactly that. Continuity Reboot (for like, the 50th time) ftw!

The protagonist of one of my stories is a sociopath who sincerely believes that the way to cure people of Christianity and foreign influence is to stab them and rape them until they are dead. She, of course, only does this to young attractive males that are "perfectly Danish".

I would call her an anti-hero since she is so morally corrupt, but she doesn't do anything even remotely heroic for the entire story, thus making her not a hero. She believes herself to be a hero, though, and as she tells the story, glorifies herself and her actions.

Quite easily the most horrible protagonist I have ever written.

edited 12th Nov '11 11:15:35 PM by annebeeche

That actually sounds more like a straight up Villain Protagonist than an Anti-Hero.

True.

edited 13th Nov '11 2:41:04 AM by Rynnec

Well, it might be a Values Dissonance in play.

There is certainly an element of that. The fact that she is so xenophobic (saying that modern Danish culture is foreign to 9th century Danish culture) and supremacist does not help.

Although her behavior isn't very different from the thing that people would do in viking, she behaves like this also in peacetime, and does not care about anyone besides herself at all. Other people are objects.

So she is a horrible person in a viking age society too.

Thread Hop here.

Not all girls must be Action Girls, because then all you have is another stereotype that's being enforced (i.e. that all girls are actiony, and the shadow of the original stereotype looms over still). But realistically there will be some women that are Badass, and there will be some who are more traditionally "girly". Not because there's a weight on either side, but because some people (both men and women) are going to be actiony and others are going to be "girly", and half*

edited 13th Nov '11 3:27:39 AM by MangaManiac

This whole thing seems to imply that you cannot be "badass" and "girly" at the same time.

Daria was a cool character. Held up an entire show and even named a trope once upon a time.

Pretty sure I never saw her karate kick anyone in the face or anything. Or even break up a sweat, for that matter. Or get kidnapped.

Nope, she was just really, really funny.

By all means you can. Although, I was using "girly" in the terms of "plays with dolls while cooking and singing the Smurf song".

You can still be badass and play with dolls while cooking and singing the Smurf song at the same time.

Agree with this. So many people seem to think that you can't be "traditionally girly" (put inside quotes because I think most gender roles are culturally imposed) and be a competent fighter at the same time.

Since My God It's Full Of Stars complained about the portrayal of the Action Girls of Avatar The Last Airbender (apart from Katara), I want to point out that Suki is clearly an Action Girl and a soldier, and proud of her Amazon Brigade's war outfit that includes skirts and (kabuki-style) make-up (and a bladed fan as a weapon, no less). And that certainly never made her any less tough than any of the other fighters on the show, male or female.

I'm mostly confused by the O Ps definition of "girly" traits, because at least some of the characters he's mentioned (Amy from Futurama, as an example) are in no way action heros, and in Amy's case she does have a lot of stereotypical female characterisatics being boy-crazy, looks obsessed, kinda shallow and vain. They aren't necessarily good female stereotypes, but she's basically a cliche Valley Girl (who gets some character development).

As far as I can, with the comments about real people included, the OP seems to take issue with women who chose not to act how he wishes they would act.

Yes, but I would reinterpret that to say that all gender roles are culturally imposed.

No, not all women need to be Action Girl types. Because in Real Life, not every woman is an Action Girl.

A few important things to keep in mind I would say are:

• Write what you want. Not what is "politically correct" or what others want.
• Do not fall into Positive Discrimination and make every woman an Action Girl, because that often leads to fans crying Real Women Never Wear Dresses or creating some other form of discrimination. Also, don't make every man a badass Action Guy (it ticks me off that isn't a trope)...in Real Life, not every male can kick ass either.
• Don't make it seem like being an Action Girl is the only way to be cool. A Yamato Nadeshiko Non Action Girl could secretly turn out be The Chessmaster for example. There are more ways to make a character cool than, "I can kick your ass!" (Also, in Real Life, violence is usually not the answer to problems, just saying)
• If you are going to write an Action Girl, beware of any and all Double Standard stuff related to it. I suggest seeing the Action Girl analysis page, because depending on your audience and how stupid some people in it may be, you may hear complaints like "OMG! The Action Girl got punched in the face by a male! And she bled! The guy is the worst person in the world and we all know women never bleed!" or other stupid comments.
• If you write an Action Girl, make her that. Not a Faux Action Girl.
• If you write an Action Girl, don't make her super-competent in comparison to other characters unless she's supposed to be The Ace. Otherwise she may come off as a Mary Sue, and I also know that if a female character routinely is better than the male characters with no justification beyond Positive Discrimination and/or insults and hurts them all the time, such as Abuse Is Okay When It’s Female on Male, you will lose male audience members (unless you deconstruct it or something and even then it is risky).
• I suggest not using any Double Standard. But that is hard to do due to Moral Guardians.
• Above all else, you don't have to take my advice. Just write what you want and feel is right.

edited 13th Nov '11 7:30:18 AM by darkclaw

I remember writing something about an Action Girl and an Action Survivor guy teaming up and the Action Survivor feels very emasculated because he's been put out of the game by a crippling injury.

I wish I was still writing this. :/

My favourite Action Girl is still Eowyn from The Lord Of The Rings. Everything about her characterisation and skills simply adds up. While martially skilled women in medieval society weren't common, they weren't unheard of, either, and I'd expect a princess of a semi-Gothic semi-Teutonic society to know her way around a sword.

Plus, she avoids the general Action Girl pitfall of being a sort of designated fighty girl for political correctness or whatever. She exists as her own independent, relevant and developed character that just happens to be a woman, and just happens to be able to carve Orcs up pretty well.

She's also pretty unique; how often do you get blatantly depressed characters in Germanic society fantasy? And how often is it played straight, for drama and plot, rather than for laughs? She is a really, really great character, not least because of how she interacts with the themes of the book. A lot of The Lord Of The Rings is railing against despairing attitudes, but through her, it was like Tolkien was saying that despair does not make one evil. But her character is also a caution against such attitudes, because all Eowyn wanted once her arc got into swing was to throw her life away on the battlefield, in a death worthy of her ancestors.

Eowyn is certainly a woman of the time in ways, in that she's a princess and finds herself doing quite domestic things. I think the difference is that, while being subject to some of the limitations of women in ages past, she actively chooses to hold herself to the standards of her ancestors and rejects those limitations. She doesn't kick ass because she can; from her perspective, she must. She can't allow herself to waste away.

Hey Alex, want me to talk to you about Hrút, early 6th century princess of Denmark?

She's an important supporting character in my version of Beowulf, though she played only a background role in the original. In the original, her name was Freawaru before I restored it to Hrút as per Kemp Malone's observations.

edited 13th Nov '11 11:49:02 AM by annebeeche

I'm all ears.

@annebeeche:

:D That's an awesome post. And I love your signature, too.

But what measure ia non action girl? If can be girls that like dresses can be badass than what makes for a good heroine?

So apparently the OP is concerned about action girls because they set a bad example for real girls? That may be the least compelling possible defense of that position.

Also, it appears that the OP wants women to act "feminine" because that's how he likes them—ie, the above post sounds like he just wants to look at more skirts and blouses. But that's not an argument at all; people, both real and fictional, don't always look or act the way you'd like, and you shouldn't expect them to.

Alex: Okay, well, Hrút, first of all, is not what TVT would call an action girl. She knows how to stab things with the seax that every free man and woman owns and usually hangs off their belt, but because she hardly practices and she has never been in combat before she'd be pretty useless in practice. Thus, not action girl.

However, she is in fact a talented strategist. Hrút is a master of the old Germano-Celtic board game known as "tæfl", which can be thought of as being similar to chess, and she also treats her life as a puzzle of deception and gambitry.

The strategy game that she currently plays in her life are the steps she is taking to avoid an inevitable arranged marriage. When Grendel first arrived to the party of Heorot (at the time Hrút was seven, she is currently nineteen), which had guests from nations all around, including Froda, king of the Heaðobards. Froda was one of the people killed by Grendel, but either the Heaðobards didn't believe in him or refused to believe in him, as they accused the Danes of being responsible for his death.

Since Wealtheow (Hrút's mother) was formerly a part of a peaceweaving marriage (which luckily became a happy one), and the songs sang of them often, Hrút was aware of the peaceweaving marriage strategy. Nobody said a word of it, but Hrút was aware that she would be part of the wergild and be given in tribute to Ingeld in the future, it was simply how this kind of situation played out. She also knew that peaceweaving marriages had a poor chance of success, so even if she did agree to it, it likely would not even fulfill its intended purpose and that would be her life wasted.

Hrút delayed the possibility by making her father need her—she deliberately made him ill from time to time with poisons—not ill enough to be at risk of death or even in much pain, but just ill enough to require her aid. It pained her to do it, but it was a sacrifice she felt she had to make.

The arrival of Beowulf was a bastion of opportunity. The kid was her age, and while his tall tales were obviously a complete fabrication and his promises to slay Grendel (unarmed, no less!) would surely end in failure (though she still admired him for having balls), she could tell this was a kid innocent and passive enough to make a peaceful marriage without incident. Also, he was kinda cute—again, she figured she wouldn't regret this marriage.

So she decided to do this: She would help Beowulf slay Grendel, and once that was done and Hroðgar was enveloped in joy and celebration, she would pop the question to her dad. Being in an extremely joyful mood and impressed by Beowulf, he would surely and quickly accept, eliminating the possibility of a marriage to Ingeld.

By doing this, she would also have the benefit of helping her nation in a time of need, and for that to actually help her country.

Just an example of how she thinks.

edited 13th Nov '11 1:23:42 PM by annebeeche