Rename: Has Japanese Word in Title: Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere

I suspect that would change if we add Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere as an option... assuming that Fast Eddie does not promptly zap it on sight as being "unacceptable".

edited 30th Jul '11 8:01:44 AM by MarqFJA

Yup. TTT was the consensus name by a long shot. Eddie zapped it.

edited 30th Jul '11 8:05:11 AM by Ramidel

Same with Shana Clone which is the pre-existent fanterm for it.

I mean, I don't get the point. It's an anime only trope. The examples are exclusively anime. It's an eminently recognizable trope in anime, a specific subtrope of the Tsundere made incredibly popular by Shana. It's just as specific and recognizable as Char Clone.

The current name that Fast Eddie has imposed by fiat will only lead to Trope Decay with people shoehorning in non-anime examples that fit the name but not the trope description.

This doesn't even match what Fast Eddie himself said in the other thread about how it was okay to use anime fan terms to refer to anime-only tropes.

Fine, edited to remove rage post.

edited 30th Jul '11 8:34:36 AM by Sackett

Calm down. Anything that gets cutlisted gets autolocked now. You can use it as a redirect. You just need to ask on the locked pages thread to get it unlocked.

Wow. This is the first time that I seen all the options in the negative.

Is "Shana Clone" still acceptable?

Okay... calmed down a little.

Look, the key problem here to me is that Fast Eddie lays out some guidelines for how to handle anime named tropes.

Basically that we shouldn't have them, unless it's exclusive to anime.

Also that we should also try to make it so that if a trope is anime specific but there is a non-anime specific supertrope we should have the supertrope in English.

(At least that's what I'm getting out of it.)

Okay, this is change in policy, but I can get behind it. Lets rename Meganekko to Cute Glasses Girl, ect. Tsundere I think needs to be grandfathered considering it's one of the huge draws to the website, but there are some we can rename pretty easily.

Then we get to this trope. It's anime only. Not because we wanted to make it anime only, but because it's built around a specific expy of an anime character (Shana) that has become extremely popular in anime today, and so is easily recognizable (and sometimes misleads new anime fans into thinking that those are the only characters that quality as Tsundere). Having a trope page for that makes sense. According to the policy laid out by Fast Eddie this is acceptable to use an anime term in the trope title.

In fact it perfectly fits his guideline in the post I linked above.

Okay, there is the point that there is a more general supertrope that is behind the reason this Expy is so popular. We ought to have a non-anime specific trope about that too. (Consistent with Fast Eddie's guidelines). So we have Tiny Tyrannical Girl in YKTTW right now.

Yet then Fast Eddie comes and says "Not acceptable" to any anime fanterm. Despite it being completely inconsistent with the way we treat other similar tropes.

Do you understand why Head Desk is my reaction?

I feel like even when we try to follow the guidelines, and be consistent with other titles, that we are still getting hammered by Fast Eddie.

How can we hope to know when following the guidelines is acceptable or not?

edited 30th Jul '11 9:13:29 AM by Sackett

Seconded.

And please don't bring the matter of "we are currently seeking an English equivalent to Tsundere" as a counter-argument; that already has its own controversies that are hotly debated on Tsundere's current rename TRS thread, chief among is whether the western examples of Tsundere really fit the original anime/manga interpretation of the trope to justify making it non-specific to Japanese media.

edited 30th Jul '11 11:25:45 AM by MarqFJA

My question is is the trope anime only, or is it just written that way? A tiny tyrant girl shows up everywhere. Lucy from Peanuts, for example.

The fact that the pattern is used in anime in such a way that instances of it have a similarity to other instances of it in anime is sort of a side issue, not a defining element of the trope.

I am not familiar with this Lucy. Does she hit all the points that are essential to the trope?

PS: I'm glad that you're avatar returned to normal. It's been out of wack when I first posted here.

edited 30th Jul '11 11:44:28 AM by MarqFJA

Lucy is a small tyrannical girl, but she's not this trope, either visually or personality-wise. She's not any shorter than the rest of the cast and since they're all prepubescent children, she's not any flatter than anyone else either. She has longish hair, but not Rapunzel Hair by any stretch of the imagination and it's not unkempt or in Twin Tails. She has never worn any grade of Zettai Ryouiki. Lucy does not treat her love interest (Schroeder) as her property or even particularly bossily. Schroeder is the one person who gets her "dere" side.

Lucy could maybe fit into the Tiny Tyranical Girl supertrope currently in YTTW, but I would hesitate because she's not short compared to the rest of the cast. She's as tall as boys her own age and the cast is only made up of children.

So it is just about anime characters that are like another anime character? Down to the costume? I suppose calling it 'X clone' actually applies in this case.

Weird, though. I can think of many characters in western literature that fulfill a role identical to other characters in other works, but not one where all the other attributes are identical.

I'll unlock that clone title.

Thank you Eddie. I appreciate it.

Does this mean you'd be willing to accept Shana Clone as the main name if that's the consensus? Or just as a redirect?

I'd suspected that perhaps you didn't realize how narrow the trope is. (Below is an extended post on why this is happening and why it should probably be a trope despite being so narrow- feel free to skip it if you like).

I agree that it is a bit odd. The "Shana Clones" are actually a point of division in the anime fandom. There are quite a few fans who look at an anime and go "Oh no. Not another one!"

I think it has to do with the fact that there are significant financial pressures on anime studios right now, and there is a known solid market for that specific character type. She almost always manages to sell The Merch.

If it was just exact clones with the serial numbers filed off I wouldn't really consider it to be a trope, but it's started to take a life of it's own. There are lampshades and parodies of it appearing now. The trope is also accumulating new traits from some of the more prominent examples.

For example Shana has this specific scowl that she get on her face, and it tends to reappear on the clones with variations. Louise was the first big Shana clone (same voice actress)and added wielding a horse whip to her antics, and now the horse whip will often make an appearance with newer clones.

Yellow hair and twintails probably came from Nagi, which carries with it the connotation of the Bratty Rich girl variation.

It's all kind of interesting because it's a very fluid trope that is still developing. I tend to think of it as a fascinating example of how a trope gets created and refined.

But by this point it's become obvious that there is some kind of trope there. The lampshades and parodies suggest so at least.

Hmmm... maybe the trope should be rewritten to draw attention to the "big four" characters (Shana, Louise, Nagi, and Taiga) that have played a huge part in developing this trope. That might help make it more clear the narrow nature of the trope.

Eddie, part of the problem here I think is that since you don't watch anime (I assume, considering what I've seen of your posts), you aren't really aware of some of the details.

There is, most likely, a more general supertrope here, but we're not dealing with that. We're dealing with a very specific character type that has appeared enough times for it to be a clearly notable pattern.

Just off the top of my head:

• Shana
• Nagi
• Louise
• Taiga
• Aria
• Mio
• Victorique
• Dalian

I really think you need to consider that there are details of anime that you just aren't going to know, and you need to stop making blanket assumptions that those of us who do know a lot about anime aren't being too narrow. And you especially should not just do arbitrary things like cutting a name or closing a crowner when you clearly do not know the details.

I think Shana Clone is a fine redirect, but Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere is worlds more descriptive. I'm not sure how widespread the Shana Clone fanspeak is, but its pretty clear that if you linked Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere on an anime board, they'd know what character type you're talking about before even looking at the page.

I'm not convinced anime fans actually agree on what 'tsundere' means. Anyway, the trope here, as narrow as it is, seem to be about the character being a knock off of this Shana.

Oh, and yes, I do represent the part of our readership who has found that anime is not their cup of tea.

edited 30th Jul '11 1:50:05 PM by FastEddie

Which is fine, but you have never demonstrated that your claimed problems with anime terms are actual problems.

And yes, anime fans (and really almost anyone) knows what a Tsundere is, it just never had a name before.

As for being a "knockoff" of Shana, I don't think thats really the case, Shana, Louise and Nagi are very much of the same era, I'm really not sure which one was created first.

I can understand that there are concerns that anime fans are trying to take things over and anime-ify everything or think that all tropes that appear in anime are "unique" when they are not. In some cases that is going to be the case. But it's also true that anime and related Japanese media are so much of an interconnected subculture that between its many creators and fans and shout-outs and call-back to past media, it actually does create its some of its own tropes, or variants that are for the most part unique. It takes its own spin on things, almost because of the fact that both creators and viewers find it to be Serious Business. Honestly, something like the Shana Clone probably wouldn't have become a trope in the west, because we don't really have that pick-and-chose, call-back mentality, we immediately see copying instead of a trope, a lot of the time. That's how specific these types of "anime-only" tropes can be, but it's not copying, so much as referencing earlier characters and troping something much more narrowly than in the west we probably would. A lot of the time there is a more general western trope, but a much much more narrow, right down to appearance or catchphrase or specific visual things that is an anime equivalent. Sometimes it doesn't warrant more than some extra mention in the description of the general trope, but other times it occurs enough that it deserves its own page.

I'm not saying you should green light any random "anime-only" trope or "anime-named" trope without looking at it for problems with being confined to anime when it's actually not, (because chances are, you are right) but when most of us who are usually pretty reasonable start saying it is necessary I think you could give us the benefit of the doubt.

edited 30th Jul '11 2:20:54 PM by NoirGrimoir

He shouldn't have to be giving the green light. Under normal conditions, the hivemind is capable of working out for itself whether a trope title is a problem or not.

I meant "you" as a general "you all" not Eddie in particular. Perhaps I should have put "we".

Fast Eddie: There's general agreement about what a tsundere is and I don't think there's anyone that would say the Shana clones aren't all tsunderes. Really strong type A aggressive jerky ones, normally. Thus, as an anime exclusive trope based entirely on the tsundere trope plus a few added features making a new character type I don't think it's really fair to simply disqualify Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere as though it keeps out examples from other media. I personally rather dislike the title, but if there is general agreement that it is the best then it should probably be used.

Also, I think Nagi predates Shana, but Shana really popularized them.

edited 30th Jul '11 2:22:36 PM by Arha

If you go by anime dates then Shana came first (which is why they are called Shana Clones by the fandom) in Oct 2005. Then came Louise who was a clear and certain call back to Shana. (Not only was the voice actress the same, but the male lead had the same voice actor as well, and there were some deliberate callbacks to highlight that fact). In many ways Louise was a Flanderized version of Shana.

I think Nagi (April 2007) was next followed by Taiga (although I'm not certain about that). Both of who took a step back towards the less flanderized version.

Not sure if Nagi in manga form was published before Shana in light novel form. Not sure it matters either, since the personalities are often adjusted between different media adaptations.

As for the definition Tsundere, the main point of argument among anime fans is between those that want to keep it as a more broad trope that includes Type B characters like Madoka Ayukawa (one of the original characters this term was used for), and those that think Tsundere should be limited to refer only to Type A Tsundere (ie the type popularized by Shana).

edited 30th Jul '11 2:43:08 PM by Sackett

I'm pretty sure the Hayate manga came before the Shana anime which was what I was thinking of and thus Nagi wouldn't be based off of Shana. I've been assuming that Shana's personality was probably adjusted for anime and possibly reverse adjusted in the light novels to fit the anime character type. But I don't know for sure and I guess it doesn't really matter.

I actually came up with the name Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere but right now I'm almost favoring Shana Clone, seeing as how our other anime Expy pages (Char Clone, Rei Ayanami Expy) use the name of the originator in the title. Or if we could find another, more snappy/witty word for "clone" indicating they are similar characters.

^Shana was from a light novel originally though. we can't really know how much it was adjusted because we don't get translated light novels in the us *cries*.

edited 30th Jul '11 2:49:03 PM by NoirGrimoir

@Sackett: This. Beyond the three core elements, the examples tend to have additional traits to make each one more or less unique; Nagi, for example, is filthy-rich enough to buy entire highways with little impact on her finances and a manga otaku writer.

Yeah, Shana is pretty much the Trope Codifier, even if we don't know who exactly is the actual Trope Maker.

We are trying to emphasize descriptiveness in the trope name, though. A newcomer to anime fandom who never heard of Shakugan No Shana (yet, anyway) would have no idea what Shana Clone is, while Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere would at least clue him in on two of its central elements, if he hasn't already heard of the third one.

edited 30th Jul '11 2:54:11 PM by MarqFJA