TropeDecay: Nintendo Hard

The trope Nintendo Hard keeps popping up for a variety of computer games where it really isn't appropriate. It's presently used in 2005 pages, which is way more than I expected. Looking at the listed games, at least those I'm familiar with, it strikes me that this trope is often misused.

In particular, I don't think that a game can qualify as NH if only its highest Difficulty Level is really that hard; or if it has a particular area that is very difficult, or if it has Game Breaking Bugs. A game with infinite lives and save points all over the place is unlikely to qualify either, and certainly not if you can pick it up for the first time and complete it in under an hour.

I think we have a serious case of Trope Decay on our hands, and this could use some cleaning up. The trope pages itself are not that bad, it's the links to NH that are problematic.

For example, Age Of Mythology (only NH on its highest difficulty level); Alien Vs Predator (has difficult levels for a particular character); Aquaria (X Just X); Cat Planet (a casual 15-minute game); Avernum (one particular area is hard); Within A Deep Forest (infinite lives and save points in every room); Commander Keen (some levels are hard); Dai Katana (game breaking bugs are a different trope); VVVVVV (again, only on the hardest difficulty); and Descent (again, some levels on higher difficulty mode).

Thoughts please?

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

A couple.

Game Breaking Bugs - Can be the cause of something being Nintendo Hard, I think, provided it's not Game Breaking to the point of Unwinnable by Mistake... Although I think there are some games that would be Nintendo Hard even if they weren't rendered Unwinnable by a Game Breaking Bug. I don't think we should be trying to judge the intent of the artist when analysing this sort of thing - One man's bug is another man's feature, afterall, and the game designers might have deliberately put in what looks to most people like a horrible bug.

Can be completed in under an hour - In many cases, old games deliberately ramped up the difficulty because the storage medium didn't allow for that much game length (...Though I'm pretty sure it was more commonly because the creators hadn't quite gotten used to not having to kill the player every couple of minutes to ensure a constant supply of quarters to keep the company they worked for afloat and as such themselves in a job). Length via killing the player lots rather than repetition, basically... But some do both. Now, if someone is skilled enough in general, they might beat one of those games in under an hour, although unlikely.

VVVVVV - ...There are difficulty modes? Or do you just mean the 'one life challenge' thing?

I agree with the rest of your comments I have opinions on at all, mind.

edited 30th Jul '11 6:41:09 PM by Gizensha

I'm starting to think Nintendo Hard is a Subjective Trope. One person's hard could be another person's easy.

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Well, that depends. On the one hand, there are games that are clearly and ubiquitously known for being extremely difficult, such as the aforementioned Nintendo games, and I Wanna Be The Guy.

And on the other hand, there are games that one particular troper has had some trouble with.

The latter is clearly subjective, and more to the point, is not a trope in the first place. The former is what this page purports to be.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

On the other hand, there are games marketed as being hard, which is objective no matter how you look at it, but I can't think of any examples offhand.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Yes, but aside from the whole Maso Core genre (which tends to be indie), I wouldn't necessarily believe marketing on this.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

First: of course it's subjective. "Hard" only has meaning in the context of a player playing a game, and therefore inherently refers to a player for whom the game is hard.

Second: The page has a list of features expected in Nintendo Hard games:

• Lots of enemies (or lots of bullets) that are hard to hit or dodge.
• Surprise attacks that can only be avoided by sheerest luck or memorizing their locations.
• Malevolent Architecture that poses a constant danger of death even when the player proceeds as cautiously as possible.
• A hero who can survive very few hits — often dying from even the slightest scratch.
• Lack of, or very few Check Points or Save Points.
• A limited number of lives and/or continues.
• No way to adjust the difficulty
• Losing all or most of your weapons/powerups when you die
• Stiff, clunky, and perhaps somewhat unresponsive controls (but only when applied to the original 8-bit, 16-bit, and (to a small extent) 32-bit generations: in more modern games, it ceases to be expected and veers right into Fake Difficulty.)
  • Inflexible Jump Physics render it impossible to accurately dodge attacks in midair, especially if your character's jump height is less than half that of Mario's.

Of these, I believe scarce save points and limited lives are almost essential — after all, it's not just hard, it's Nintendo Hard, and that means going back to the beginning time and time again.

At the very least, limited lives and lack of save points is an objective trope, and I agree it's a very common one to "nintendo hard" games.

Interestingly, by this logic, I Wanna Be The Guy doesn't qualify (since it has save points all over the place). Then again, IWBTG's difficulty is implemented in a rather different way than classic "nintendo hard" games.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

For Nintendo Hard the whole game, or at least the large majority of it has to be unforgivingly difficult? If you have to adjust the difficulty level very high to make that happen doesn't count?

Fine by me, just start deleting the examples that don't fit, and maybe modify the description a little. If people are missing a key element of it you could bold it, or maybe state it more than once as to remind them. "And again, it doesn't count if..."

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

There's nothing subjective about a game being so difficult, that it is played merely to see how far you can get, not to actually beat it.

If it's only Nintendo Hard on the highest difficulty, I say it should be allowed insofar as it is noted that only the highest difficulty qualifies. Also, Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne has save points everywhere and is cosidered Nintendo Hard. So while I agree that such games are unlikely to qualify, it should be noted that they can, in extreme cases.

I do agree about misuse being rampant, but we should be cautious about what we consider misuse, and labelling it subjective should be out of the question.

[...] and labelling it subjective should be out of the question.

Why?

Difficulty Levels is a different trope. Many games with difficulty levels have one, usually hidden, that is meant to be ridiculous and often cannot even be completed by the developer. Not that that stops a die-hard fan :)

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Nocturne has different things that make it hard and Save Points really arnt that common.

Its got We Can Not Go On With Out You, Percentage based Instant Death Game Over on random battles of all things, You can die on the tutorial level, Bosses that have no weaknesses but target every single one of yours, That One Boss for every damn boss, bosses that can full heal themselves if they chose to, bosses get 2-6 turns, Guide Dang It! across the board on Fusions and really everything, too much freedom with stats and skills, skills being lost forever if you ever chose to replace it or have an unintended level up and get a skill you didnt want at that moment but wanted later, high cost of healing MP, summons and such.... I could go on and on. And thats normal mode, Hard mode is.... well... "A level of difficulty suitable for one seeking the thrill of death"....

Many of these traits are shared with the rest of Atlus's games. There isnt a single Atlus game that is not Nintendo Hard (hell we could rename it Atlus Hard) Even their puzzle games are hard.... saw one reviewer just give up on Cathrine because it was too hard for him.

edited 7th Aug '11 3:01:01 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

It is not good to quote and reply to someone without reading the entirety of their post. He explained himself in his first sentence. And he's right, difficulty is not a subjective matter. The difference skill of a person does not make difficulty a subjective matter. It is as difficult as it is, regardless of whether it is played by a skilled person, or a noob.

We shouldn't settle all disputes, by labeling them subjective. The trope is about games that match up to the average NES game in terms of difficulty. There is nothing remotely subjective about that. I can't believe that even needs to be said.

Edit - I feel I needed to be slightly more diplomatic with this post.

edited 8th Aug '11 8:37:48 PM by OnagaIsComingToTown

In the end, nothing matters, or mattered. So endulge yourself now, your legacy means nothing when humans are extinct.

But difficult is subject to variations in individual player skill, and Your Skills May Vary.

On the other side of the fence, it's not entirely subjective (at least not in the Audience Reaction kind of way). Take Mega Man 9 for example: It's freakin' hard. One of the hardest things in it was having to make a lot of four-square leaps across Bottomless Pits. The designers had to know that Megaman's maximum jump distance is exactly four tiles, and anything less means you fall straight down. (It could also be because of being able to use the "Concrete Shot" to shorten the distance by a tile — no other MM game previous or since has so many four-square leaps)

edited 8th Aug '11 7:03:12 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Citing Mega Man 9 is to me a very good reason to call this a subjective trope. I found it only of moderate difficulty. I wouldn't say easy; it took me until the day after it was released to beat it. But the only part that I found hard was the magma gouts in Dr. Wily's Castle 1 (in large part on how I dealt with it - I figured out the proper use of the Rush Coil to get past it instead of the easier use of the Concrete Shot).

Yes, it helps that I'm Genre Savvy enough to be able to predict some of the stuff that they'll pull (like the extra-long pits, where some of the enemies would spawn, and figuring out Dr. Wily's weakness by noting that the Plug Ball would be the biggest pain to hit him with). But even still, just what would be the dividing line between "ridiculously hard" and "easy if you're familiar with the particular gameplay tropes involved"? When you get down to brass tacks, every game is going to be tricky until you get down what gameplay tropes are involved... it all becomes a question of how quickly one can get acclimated.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Its somewhat subjective I guess.... however there are some cases like all Atlus games where its not at all subjective these games are made hard and are hard and its exactly what their fans expect of the games.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

The criteria in that first sentence you alluded to — "being so difficult, that it is played merely to see how far you can get, not to actually beat it" — is a good one, and I would endorse it as a Laconic Wiki description for the trope ... but it doesn't solve the problem that what some people find impossible others find less difficult. That's almost the definition of subjective, in fact: what some people find x other people find not-x.

Regardless of what we think people should do with this trope, the practical fact is that people do use this frequently for games that (to me) clearly aren't all that difficult.

So people are treating it as subjective. I agree that simply dropping it in YMMV is a cop-out, but do we have a better suggestion? Is it possible to pick a name that makes it meaning more clear? Perhaps people compare it to contemporary Nintendo games, like Wario Ware. I don't think cutlisting is a good idea either, does anyone have a better idea?

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

A rename discussion would certainly be appropriate. Even if people are thinking of the correct Nintendo, Mega Man 2 was on the NES and it's a fair sight easier than 9, much less something like Zanac.

Nintendo Hard is subject to the same source of decay as That One Boss/Level - very few people consider themselves particularly bad at games, so any level/boss/game that gives them trouble must be exceptionally hard.

Truth.

We may need a video game-centric version of the old saw "80% of drivers believe they're above average" (in other words, Illusory Superiority).

I honestly don't think a rename would really change anything, regardless of the merits for such an action - I think that this is a YMMV trope because it goes into questions of play style, how quickly one adapts to a particular game's (or game series') tropes, how much quirks of the programming can make games easier or harder than anticipated, and other hair splitting. I think that an honest assessment the trope plainly reflects that it's a YMMV trope, and there's nothing wrong with that.

You can find plenty of people who would challenge anything. I still find that the original Metroid is easier than Super Mario Bros. Even when you reach a consensus, the fact that so many will not hit 100% is proof that it's a subjective trope.

edited 8th Aug '11 2:15:25 PM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

I'm not convinced a rename will help either. I do note that both That One Boss and That One Level are subjective tropes, and that they're probably less subjective than this one. Because That One Level can be fairly compared to other levels in the same game, whereas it's wildly unfeasible to compare "That One Game" to an entire genre.

So I do think that Nintendo Hard should be flagged as YMMV, but if someone has a better idea I'd be happy to hear it. I'm willing to support rename if someone can make a good suggestion for one.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Well, it is possible to break down certain individual elements of Nintendo Hard-ness as objective criteria....

Mega Man 9, for example, the aforementioned four-tile gaps requiring a Pixel Perfect Jump. Boss attacks that have little to no telegraphing, and you have very little time to react and dodge them properly before getting hit (MM 9 Wily Capsule, Blade Man), or just are difficult to dodge period (Solar Man). Enemy attacks inflicting significant damage to the point where the only reasonable way to survive a level is via No-Damage Run (Atlus is sure fond of this one; I'm looking at you, Odin Sphere).

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.