Is the otaku aspect really the most important?: Yaoi Fangirl

Okay, so the Yaoi Fangirl stereotype is true most of the time on the Internet, which is probably what inspired the creation of this page in the first place, but when it comes to fictional examples more than a few of these are not otaku or at least not acknowledged as such in-story. Now, granted there needs to be some kind of distinction to separate this from regular Guy on Guy Is Hot (though the Laconic page seems to disagree), which brigs us to my point.

If you look at the Yuri Fan page, I think it handles its distinction from Girl on Girl Is Hot much better by stating that it's about characters interested primarily in the romantic and emotional aspects, and includes both anime/manga otaku types as well as those who ship characters in their own universe thus making it a subtrope of Shipper on Deck. (I also like how it basically states that there are no real Yuri Fanboys since guys are only interested in lesbian porn ) Can we do something similar with Yaoi Fangirl page so that we don't have examples that are just Guy on Guy Is Hot applied to characters?

Also, as mentioned in the discussion Yaoi Fan probably needs to be the main title for consistency's sake between the Sister Tropes.

edited 13th Apr '11 1:03:45 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.

Fictional yuri fanboys, please. I know, it's nitpicking and it's probably what you meant anyway, but being a real-life Yuri Fan(boy), I can't help but take a bit offense on that.

Reading both pages, I have the strange feeling that Yaoi Fangirl is more... negative. Not only does the Yuri Fan page state a focus on emotional and romantic aspects, while the Yaoi Fangirl page pretty much depicts said fangirls as perverts, the Yaoi Fangirl page also mentions the darker aspects of the fandom (actualy fandoms, since it mentions yuri too) like Het Is Ew or Die for Our Ship, while the Yuri Fan page... well, doesn't (and I can assure you that yuri fans are no better in that regard...).

So yes, I think Yaoi Fangirl should be reworked a bit. And the note about Het Is Ew and all that stuff could be included in Yuri Fan (doesn't even need to be rewritten).

edited 13th Apr '11 2:52:34 PM by Nyarly

People aren't as awful as the internet makes them out to be.

I don't think there's any doubt the page was meant to portray RL Yaoi Fangirls negatively. Just look at the original discussion page.

Also that's one hell of an avatar collection you got there. Nearly crashed my browser when I opened your contributor page.

edited 13th Apr '11 3:21:38 PM by Killomatic

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.

I believe it is that way because the Yaoi Fangirl stereotype is negative. The way the 'fandom' is portraited in media, as well as perceived by other are as 'crazy perverted girls'. That is the trope. This is not about girls who like yaoi, but this specific subset of the group.

So, I would say the otaku aspect is important for the trope. Take this out and it becomes 'girl who find man on man hot', which is another thing. If some rework is need, it should be to make this distinction more clear.

So, Yuri Fan is someone who is interested in totally pure and innocent romance stories between girls, while a Yaoi Fangirl is a depraved pervert who keeps a Porn Stash and is repulsed by the mere thought that Those Two Guys from that anime might be straight? Doesn't is seem like we're perpetuating a Double Standard here?

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.

I would say it is the Yuri Fan trope that is broken, not the opposite. The Yuri Fanboy was created to be a Spear Counterpart of Yaoi Fangirl without really bothering to check if it is a trope or not. Which is why it got renamed (since there is actually not many actual Yuri Fanboy on media).

Besides, it is not our job to clear Double Standard issues or not. I believe we should make clear that Yaoi Fanboy trope is how this fandom is perceived and portrayed in media, but not necessarely how actual Yaoi fangirls are.

PS: I can see the Yuri Fan trope working with some work, though. The Yuri Fangirl steriotype I've seem in manga do make a distinction from 'pure love' from 'carnal love'. These will focus in subtle "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship aspect of Yuri, avoiding anything even remotely sexual. I believe this is old style Yuri manga. Not all Yuri Fangirl are like that, though. Hiyori, from Lucky Star is a more stereotypical Yaoi Fangirl, despite being also a Yuri fan. But then, it is not like all Yaoi fangirls are Yaoi Fangirls either, as I was saying.

edited 13th Apr '11 5:02:57 PM by Heatth

It would seem that Yaoi Fangirl is leaning more towards the media trope side of the spectrum (how it's portrayed in fiction) where as Yuri Fan leans far more towards being a fandom trope (how it is in real life). Mind you, the media portrayals I've seen of characters that are described or self-described as Yuri Fans fit FAR better into the current definition of Yuri Fan than under the Girl on Girl Is Hot trope description.

Also, under it's current definition a Yuri Fan is completely allowed to be perverted. However, it's still a prerequisite to have at least some interest in the romance aspect. Simply put, people who don't have some interest in that aspect are extremely likely to get bored by yuri.

and that's how Equestria was made!

Yaoi Fangirl is treated negatively, Yuri Fanboy and Yuri Fangirl are treated... not positively, but more neutrally.

The Double Standard exists. We don't create them, we just catalog them.

edited 13th Apr '11 10:05:15 PM by Sackett

I think its also that they are...subversions, I guess.

Basically, (major generalizations to follow), girls are generally considered to be interested in the romance, the emotional side of relationships. The Yaoi Fangirl however is in it purely for the smut. Story is nice and all, but she wants some hot man on man action!

On the other hand, guys are generally thought to be there purely for the porn, Girl on Girl Is Hot, who cares if they actually like each other? He just wants to see some grinding. The Yuri Fanboy however is there for the emotions, the relationship built between two girls. There may or may not be any sex, or even anything more than hand-holding, but thats not the point.

So yes, there are double standards here, but they apply both ways, and in opposite directions.

Both tropes could probably use some rework to reflect this however.

Agree with this. Also in Media Yaoi Fan Girls are treated two different ways.

1. They hide themselves and deny that they even remotely like this Ogiue from Genshiken, Mai from Nichijou (Which lead to an awesome chase scene to keep it a secret.)
2. Or flat out proud of it like Haruna from Negima.
3. consistently the butt of jokes and also might be called "fujoshi" which is a derogatory term for Yaoi Fangirls.

Yuri Fans though see romance and Shipper on Deck most of all. Most Yuri art in general is rather Squee romance vs just smut.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Okay, presuming that the current definitions are as they should be, which I'm still not entirely convinced of, what do we do with the examples under Yaoi Fangirl that are not otaku?

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.

Well, it depends of how you define the term. This can be defined as a form of otaku by itself. But I don't think it is really a requisite to be a fan of anime/manga, no. Mai from Nichijou doesn't seem the type, for example (though I an't be sure, just 2 episodes in).

I guess you are right on that regard. Some clarification may be in order.

Well, otaku just means fanatic, so you could apply it to almost anything, but we should probably stick with the definitions we use. And if non-otaku characters do go under Yaoi Fangirl as well, where does that leave Guy on Guy Is Hot? And please don't say one is a character trope and the other is not, because that in itself isn't a meaningful enough distinction.

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.

Yaoi Fangirl is still related to, you know, Yaoi. You don't need to be an fan of anime/manga as a whole to like this specific aspect. Although the distinction of 'Yaoi' from 'gay porn' is sorta blurry in anime (and similar). And I haven't found the stereotype anywhere else.

Anyway, the difference of Yaoi Fangirl from Guy on Guy Is Hot is the former talks about one specific stereotype frequently associated to female Otaku. While the latter the latter sounds more as 'some girls find gay porn attractive'.

PS:I never noticed we had a trope for Guy on Guy Is Hot! Anyway, the distinction I made is still valid. Yaoi Fangirl is about the stereotype, while the Guy on Guy Is Hot is about the phenomenon itself.

edited 15th Apr '11 8:41:38 AM by Heatth

I agree that the distinction between Yaoi Fangirl (as defined here) and Guy on Guy Is Hot is pretty thin.

It's also confusing where to draw the lines because yaoi fangirls in fandom tend to be the Distaff Counterpart to Yuri Fanboy (ie. romance is key to Yaoi as a genre, whereas fangirls just liking porn would probably choose Bara instead), but in media the dominant portrayal is the "rotten otaku perverts". So I think the otaku aspect is pretty important if this trope is about media portrayals, but maybe there should be something clarifying this or mentioning the Double Standard?

edited 27th May '11 12:35:49 PM by whereismytea

I don't think there's any double standard at all; if anything, the double standard is in the opposite direction, because a Yuri Fanboy may be accused of objectification of women and contributing to female oppression while there is no converse that a Yaoi Fangirl can be accused of. (Though that's more of a real life thing.)

However, one thing to keep in mind is that whether each trope is used negatively is very much associated with whether it's about fans. Fans of anything are more likely to be portrayed in a negative way. If you move all the examples that aren't about fans to Guy on Guy Is Hot and Girl on Girl Is Hot, you will also make the tropes more negative, and exactly how negative you make them will depend on how good a job you did of moving the examples.

And if you don't think examples that aren't about fans need to be moved, neither trope is very negative—as shown by looking at the examples on the actual pages, rather than by theorizing.

edited 27th May '11 1:57:57 PM by arromdee

No a Yaoi Fangirl is very pejorative when it comes to its use in anime slash and other works of that type and Yaoi Fanboys are rare to non-existent in media. They see subtext and jump make leaps and bounds with Boys' Love and with Keet, Uke and Seme dynamics. Yaoi Fangirl usually go to extremes to hide it. (Some can be are quite casual about it though.)

Yuri Fans however usually stick straight to the romance and subtext many of the most popular Yuri works don't actually have sex in them at all.

Now that's probably quite different outside of Japan though with Girl on Girl Is Hot.

edited 27th May '11 2:12:48 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

Many of the most popular Yuri manga don't have explicit romance in them. The most iconic (and imitated) Yuri manga Maria-sama Ga Miteru relies solely in subtext, as far I am aware. That is probably why Yuri and Yaoi are views so differently on media. Such difference is probably due to both 'mainstream' Yaoi and Yuri being targeted to women. So Yaoi, naturally, gets the Guy on Guy Is Hot reaction from many of them, while Yuri does not.

edited 27th May '11 2:18:58 PM by Heatth

Male yaoi fans are actually pretty rare in real life. Most homosexual/bisexual males far prefer Bara to yaoi.

Yuri can targeted towards men, women, or both. Yuri also varies quite a bit in terms of explicitness. For instance, Sono Hanabira Ni Kuchizuke Wo is currently the most popular yuri Visual Novel and it's pretty explicit.

edited 27th May '11 2:24:39 PM by CBanana

and that's how Equestria was made!

I can't think of a single in-media example of a Yuri Fanboy. Yuri Fangirls? Sure, they're fairly common even, but a male character interested in girl-girl relationships for reasons more than Girl on Girl Is Hot? Not a one.

The Yuri Fan page on this site is specifically restricted to people interested in the actual romance aspect, with examples of males simply being turned on by the prospect of f/f sex listed on the Girl on Girl Is Hot page instead. Actual Yuri Fanboys by this definition are vanishingly rare in fiction, as the example page indicates.

On a semi-OT note:

Urgh... I really need to stop being lazy and put a thread on that trope up in TRS. I'll be surprised if even 1/3 of the wicks use it properly.

There is one on the page right now.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

The last part of the line isn't really right. If it gets sexual, well, thats a nice bonus, but its not expected.

Of course the average Yuri fan will throw a party if we get a kiss, so priorities are kinda skewed.

Okay, I officially regret ever getting into the real life implications here. All I really wanted was to have some clear distinction between examples of Yaoi Fangirl and Guy on Guy Is Hot, which we're no closer to drawing then when this whole discussion started.

Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.

Yaoi Fangirl is a specific character type, and a subtrope of Fujoshi, Guy on Guy Is Hot is exactly what it says on the tin. A character can think that Guy on Guy Is Hot without being a Yaoi Fangirl, but a Yaoi Fangirl will always think Guy on Guy Is Hot

Same goes for Yuri Fanboy and Girl on Girl Is Hot

edited 27th May '11 4:31:30 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna