Another Gender Topic: Does a Heroine need a Villainess?

In The Millennium Trilogy we have an Anti-Villain protagonist who doesn't hesitate to fight men. She does not use Waif-Fu. Instead, she displays actual real kick-boxing. Which, the big screen really looks like crap. Additionally as the fight went on the fighters got worn down little by little, and it Shows Damage. And she generally gets the living crap beaten off her to the point she's almost like The Bride.

Also, Disney averted Wouldn't Hit a Girl in a few movies... by pulling a One-Winged Angel... so it really doesn't count. SEPHIUROTHahem.

There are plenty of cool, calm, Chessmaster female types in anime. Just a couple: Kanzaki Urumi from Great Teacher Onizuka, Cornelia from Code Geass (although she is also Hot-Blooded), Kanako and Ivrogne from Star Driver... basically your average Tall Dark And Bishoujou, whether they be Yamato Nadesico or not. It's almost a trope in itself.

edited 5th Feb '11 9:09:59 AM by Ardiente

"I think you could have a male villian called "Cat Burglar" who filled the same niche as Catwoman, but Batman would have to be female."

Or gay.

@Ettina: indeed.

Villains who have sexual tension with the hero[ine] certainly have their place. What does bug, for me (and others) is that traditionally villains have only been female when they could not be male. Catwoman displays one version of that: heterosexual male hero needs a villainess if you want to bring sexual tension into play. Poison Ivy displays another version: when the attributes of the villain are perceived as "too feminine" for a male.

It's just another version of the trope in which male is the default, and characters are only female if they "need to be female". (We probably have a named trope for this, but I'm too lazy this morning).

Spider Girl had an extremely flirty catsuit thief villain.

But all Spider Girls stuff I read susually sucked. Bad Writing at its finest, and the art was nothing to write home about.

edited 5th Feb '11 11:49:41 AM by Ardiente

The Smurfette Principle ?

Most Writers Are Male?

Girls Need Role Models?

@OP: No. Just... No. Also, subverting standard gender roles can make for an interesting story; for instance, in my book I've got a Beauty And Beast scenario involving a White Blue haired pretty boy falling in love with a Vash-Ri'il woman.

FYI, Vash-Ri'il are six and a half foot tall were-tiger-things that make rugby players look like waifs.

Shameless Self-Promotion brought to you by Trope Co.

edited 5th Feb '11 9:17:34 PM by Diamonnes

Using the villainess as a role model? How progressive of you.

Examples of Trope: Female Hero, No Female Villain:

Anime

• Appleseed
• Dirty Pair (most of the time)
• Ghost In The Shell (not counting the evil surgeon)

Comic Books

• Wonder Woman, at least a lot of the time

Film:

• Courage Under Fire

Live-Action TV

• Buffy The Vampire Slayer (more than half the episodes, anyway)
• Star Trek Voyager (at least a lot of the time)
• Xena Warrior Princess (almost all episodes)

Western Animation

• Mulan

And there's plenty more, I'm sure.

edited 5th Feb '11 11:38:32 PM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

That evil surgeon just came out of nowhere, hwat was the point?

Mulan is a good example of having a female hero with male villain without bringing gender into the confrontation between them. To Shan-Yu, it's not relevant that Mulan's a girl, only that she's "the soldier from the mountains."

You are using spoilers for a Disney movie?

You never know who might not have watched it yet. A little more than a year ago I hadn't seen it myself.

Heresy.

Wonder Woman, at least a lot of the time

Wonder Woman probably isn't the best example; most of the people she fights are female, IIRC.

Wonder Woman suffers from being the only really prominent female superhero. If The Flash or something was female, Wonder Woman wouldn't be defined by her gender so much and would be a more interesting character.

How about a woman joining Batman inc? Imagine a genderswept opening of the Batman the animated series: A Dark Tall And Bishoujou, graceful, frightening woman, who fights very practically, mostly by using angles. She's extremely intimidating: in her ominous silence you can feel how judgemental she is, how she looks down on you, and how she means business and nothing else. The figure would be similar to Bayonetta's except broader but not to the point of being "unwomanly", and with far less esxualization and fanservice. She completely eschews the sexy angle, and dresses very severely... which is what might make her the sexiest.

And in her Rich Idiot With No Day Job persona, she could be just like Bayonetta. In an adult, powerful but elegant and poised way, not in a childish Totally Spies way.

edited 6th Feb '11 1:25:43 PM by Ardiente

What.

I see you are not up to date on Bruce Wayne's latest enterprise since he returned from the past, hm? He made Batman a franchise, and is selecting people from around the globe. Paris has a Muslim Batman, for instance (at least nominally, I don't think he has much faith).

And I was imagining what a Distaff Counterpart to Bruce Wayne would be like. Tall. Dark. Elegant. Efficient. Grim. Silent. Ominous. Full of presence. And a man-eating idiotic rich hairess by night.

Batwoman is currently rather like that. Though she's not a ''man'' eater.

I thought the new bat-woman was that redhead who could barely speak? Anyway I don't want one of Bruce Wayne's underlings, I want an equal. Can't we find him a long-lost sister or something?

edited 7th Feb '11 8:22:30 AM by Ardiente

And Batwoman is a lot more fun. She just kicks ass. And is pretty seperate from Batman in the long term and no "underling".

@Topic: Female villains can be great but imo a lot of series witha female protagonist also give them a female Big Bad. This can end in implicating that women only can defeat women so I would at least cast a balanced spectrum of villains.

edited 7th Feb '11 8:23:33 AM by myrdschaem

Problem is, a male villain against a heroine will look like an absuer, especially if she loses some of the time. A female villain against a male hero will be either ugly or play on her... hey wait a minute... A female heroine against a flirty stud such as Xanatos might be awesome. But then again it mustn't look like him seducing her is him gaining power over her, it must be part of him being a sneaky bastard but having perhaps some genuine feelings...

Do we have any female examples of Dating Catwoman?

I am not sure if someone alreayd mentioned this but a of tropers on this forums seem to hate the Vasquez always dies trope. It started with Alien (could be wrong) when one genuinely awesome female character is the first to die, Why is this prevalent is some fiction? I am not sure but some tropers want to see this trope averted.

And we just can't have the Big Bad looking like an abuser.