Metroid

Metroid Prime convinced people Metroid could be a franchise. That's why I elaborated on it. The series had historical value, for being an open ended platform game with a female protagonist, and Nintendo obviously had fondness for it, but the best game had still been a slow seller. Super Metroid hardly even got noticed until it had been out for awhile. "Prime" was the first game people took to right away.

I'm not claiming to know why "Prime", a game on an unpopular console that followed an unpopular console caught on quicker and made more money that "Super", a game on a popular console following a popular console, or "Prime 3" for that matter, which again was on a popular console, but what I do know was that "Prime" wasn't riffing on any other first person shooter of its day. Aside from the Galaxy Quest gag, it wasn't trying to look like contemporary science fiction either, nor was it plastering itself in any contemporary technology trends. At best, you could say the spirits of a departed civilization raging against criminal land grabbers who were after an ecosystem destroying fuel source really speaks to Retro's US origins, but that's stuff that's been spoken of in some form or another for as long as the USA has been the USA, not anything specific to the 2000s.

Aesthetically the power suit was slimmed down a little from "Super", a choice I didn't particularly care for, but it was still clearly a heavy piece of machinery that thudded around, just like in "Super". Even the stripped down "Fusion" suit had more weight to it than the supposedly full version seen in MOM. I'm not suggesting every Metroid game going forward from "Prime" has to be made using the same design philosophy as "Prime", clearly "Echoes" was a little too similar to the previous game judging by the critical and financial reception, what I am stressing is that there are lessons to be learned from "Prime".

"Metroid" didn't become a game of historical significance to the industry because it looked a little like Alien, but because it did a couple things new for the industry. "Prime" didn't become an unexpected run away success because it met people's expectations or did what everyone else was doing, but by being different from everything other first person shooter on the market. Now "Samus Returns" is still pretty fresh, it might change the whole conversation regarding what works for this series called Metroid, but until then, imitating the Clover/Platinum game play hasn't worked for Metroid, or any other Nintendo game, for that matter.

There could be any number reasons for that, particularly concerning the non Metroid games, which aside from Star Fox Zero were apparently pretty good, but what we can see in the years Metroid was playing follow the leader other companies were further developing things established in the "Prime" series, injecting them into their own shooters, and earning lots of critical praise, and money. Nintendo has yet to figure out how to turn this Metroid thing into a bonafide franchise, "Prime" or otherwise, but the fact others are finding success building on things "Prime" started suggests there is some potential in Nintendo building on those things itself, rather than chasing others. What really boggles my mind is that studios were offering to make a Metroid movie after "Prime" and Nintendo turned them down to instead release an overly cinematic flop of a game. Hindsight is twenty-twenty and all but...

...I digress. Star Wars Episode II was out when "Prime" was an was a proven box office draw. Retro could have easily decided to go for a prequel trilogy aesthetic but then the game wouldn't just look dated graphically but temporarily too. Halo was there to copy too, there was a year in between the release to rework the aesthetics, just like how they were changed with Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze, but the model design of DK wasn't changed for the sake of imitating anything else and Retro stuck to more glowing version of Super Metroid it had already settled on.

But hell, let's emphasize Halo, the first person shooter that was successfully spun into an authentic franchise. It was released right around the same time as the i pod and didn't feel the need to plaster its sequels with such an aesthetic any more than Metroid did. Because Halo has it's own distinctive look. People follow Halo more than Halo follows anything else.(but you know what Halo has aped? Metroid Prime!) That's not to say the i pod aesthetic can never work. It actually hasn't in too many shooters, but Mass Effect and Portal prove it can succeed. But there is little reason for Metroid to go down such a route at the cost of its own established aesthetics. If Nintendo wants to jump on that trend, and I seriously wonder why they would after the failure of P.N.03, then I'm for it. Just not in Metroid, not to the overhaul MOM tried anyway. More limited stuff like ''Echoes" I would be okay with.

edited 5th Oct '17 3:09:26 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

I had stated that I know why Prime was appealing for many. I just felt the ramblings about why Prime is important is a bit unnecessary for me. What drew me into Metroid was not Prime (no matter how many attempts my friend tried to explain its story to me), but rather the prologue of Super Metroid and later the 2D main games. I can respect Prime for bring Metroid into public spotlight, but I am not that interested into FPS in general (which is why I found Splatoon to be a match made in heaven for me).

We all know that Video Game Movies Suck, and Nintendo has not forgotten the disaster that was the Super Mario Bros Movie. I doubt anyone could have made a good Metroid movie. Especially since people still gave a thrashing for Warcraft even though it was competently made. As for the franchise building, I think Nintendo is attempting to build the Metroid universe with the latest installments (to varying degrees of success, of course). Parts of me wonder if they had regretted killing Mother Brain and Zebes in Super Metroid, since it deprived them of their classical villain and Space Pirate Leader. I know that I would like to see Mother Brain plotting more schemes than stealing Metroids. But maybe for a reboot. However, I do like the idea of evil Chozo faction.

The only reason why the prequel aesthetics would look dated is the age of CGI. I don't see anything wrong with the Prequel Trilogy designs other than it used early CGI technology so of course it wouldn't hold up as well. Design-wise, they are still timeless as far as Lucasfilm is concerned. But really, while the basic designs may look the same, there are differences for me to notice. Like Donkey Kong having realistic hair (complete with each individual strand rendered) on Wii U compared to his appearance on the Wii. Likewise, Mario getting finer details on his clothing and realistic hair for Oddessy. Designs have been changing for many of these characters. And as such, Samus's having a redesign of her armor does not bother me. It's why I stated that designs are an extremely minor thing for me to complain in Other M.

Halo came out in 2001 and as far as I can tell, there is no evidence that the developers had taken anything from Metroid Prime. And it started in 3D with a defined idea of an art style without experimentation like they did with Metroid originally. Regardless, art aesthetics has always been a secondary concern for Nintendo. Why else would they go for a Chibi aesthetics for Federation Force? Because it was easier to see the characters in that art-style. No more, no less. Art designs to me are tools. If an art style or aesthetic looks great in 2D but not in 3D, it has to be modified to look better in the format its in rather than try in vain make look like the 2D sprite. That's why Super Metroid Ridley looks great to me in 2D, but horrible in 3D. That's why Phantoon is much impressive and interesting looking in Other M than its official artwork in Super Metroid (though I do like its sprite even though I thought the mouth was a regular eyelid). I understand the dislike of an overhaul, but I felt that Other M didn't deviate that far from the Super Metroid template as others proclaimed. As someone who likes art design, I always look forward for new changes or tweaks.

In any case, I hope that interview from Game Rant I posted should assure fans that Sakamoto knows his limits and learns from his mistakes. I also liked how he discovered Mercury Steam in the first place. By playing their Castlevania game on the 3DS.

Though I have to admit, I feel tempted to envision a Metroid Netflix series. Mainly because I really want to see Ridley as the Complete Monster he is the manga (it's about time the audience gets to know why Ridley is Samus's Arch-Enemy).

edited 5th Oct '17 4:44:07 AM by Shadao

I just cleared out Area 6, and got the Power Bomb. Now my Metroid count is down to 4 left. And yes, I played the original Game Boy game, so I'm expecting that to jump back up soon.

The last part makes me wonder. Ignoring Slowbeef, which voice actor would be perfect for Ridley?

Danny Devito.

I have thought about this so much you guys it isn't even funny. Scott McNeil. Specifically Scott's Dinobot voice. See here. First, Scott has this growl that makes it very clear he is voicing a dinosaur, and it doesn't detract from the performance. Ridley is brutal and sadistic, but I also like to think he's a warrior poet. Contemplative, thoughtful, earns the respect of his men. Then there's the side of him that's a brutal savage who executes people in front of their own family members for shits and giggles. He should be someone both with a keen military mind and the ability to kill just about anything with his bare hands. I think Scott can pull off both the sophistication and the sadism and make a well-rounded character.

The first Halo was re-released with a scanning feature right out of Metroid Prime so players could "further brush up on the lore of the 'Halo Universe'". Some fans took that as an insult, and maybe it was, but if I'm a developer and you seriously think taking something from my game isn't going to harm yours, then I'm taking it as a backhanded compliment at worst. Clearly I'm doing something right.

And while I admit, aesthetics are a lot more minor than say, arbitrarily flipping the missile-beam balance from the last eight games, or worse, flipping it to facilitate a control scheme you know doesn't live up to the last game(Hanlon's Razor), much easier to correct than watching the great commanding officer we read about for the better part of half the series revival launch turn out to be anything but, it doesn't mean I have to like them.

This isn't like adding more fabric lines to Mario's overalls, it's more akin to putting chain mail under Link's tunic or removing Mario's sleeves. But those changes still don't annoy me, because one is trying to make the hero look tougher, the other attuned to a change in environment. Neither is trying to cater to a trend at the expense of a look that works. Want to change the pattern of the juts, the sharp points, the Tron Lines, the tubes, the interlocking plates, etc? That's fine with me. Slimming it down? That takes away from the awesome feel a walking tank leaping twelve feet in the air, compressing into a meter tall ball or busting through cave walls. Smoothing out the surface? She's not going in anyone's pocket! Giant shoulders, a little rough around the edges, a green lense that may be a visor or some robotic optic...let the shrouded in myth "cyborg" bounty hunter look a little intimidating. But also, slimming it down doesn't make sense in universe. This is supposed to be equipment that sinks straight to the bottom of lava, a non Newtonian fluid, without gravity suit and space jump to keep it at the surface anyway.

The chibi stuff from "Federation Force", well, I haven't played it. From what could tell though, Samus still has comparatively large shoulders and several jut points on her suit. It's gone for the big head small body art style but the general aesthetic, the nature of the armor, doesn't seem to have changed too much beyond that. I don't think I'd be thrilled if all Metroid games afterwards looked like "Federation Force" but from what I've seen, I'd rather look at it than MOM. If I knew four people who cared enough to do a solo campaign I might have even bought it.

Just completed Samus Returns. My clear time was 19:54:19, but I was going for 100PercentCompletion, which I achieved. The Chozo Memories I unlocked as a reward were quite ... insightful.

You refer to the Halo rerelease back in 2011? After three games plus a gaiden game have passed along with the Prime Trilogy released? Given that the rivalry was still around even before then, I would say that claiming Halo is a ripoff of Prime is still reaching. Just because they take place in space and have faceless helmets with FPS doesn't mean that Halo is a ripoff of Metroid Prime. And really, if we go to that route, Breath of the Wild would be considered a rip-off of Skyrim. Or heck, the scanning in Metroid Prime is a ripoff of Navi in Ocarina of Time.

You can dislike designs even if others like it. I know there are some fans who still hate the Wind Waker style. Or Twilight Princess for being too gloomy. Or Skyward Sword for giving Link ugly lips. But that depends on opinions and really, it's still a minor thing and not something worth a major complaint about for me, especially for video games. Design-wise, Samus is still Samus. She may not look as "tough" as others wanted, but she does give me the impression of speed and agility, something that appeals to me as I felt Samus should be above the usual FPS armor unit (slow and not agile enough). Though I will say that the Gravity Suit in Samus Returns has become my favorite Power Suit design. It's unique, colorful and gives the impression of both agility and tank without compromising both. Really, that's what I want out of Samus and Ridley to a lesser extent. A nice combination of both agility and brute strength. I don't want their appearances too be either too bulky or too frail. I want them to be the examples of a Lightning Bruiser.

Now that I think about it, I would not be as defensive about changes in Metroid's design aesthetics if it weren't for the fact that I've recently been part of clean up crew for the Metroid image franchise and character pages (it was a total mess full of fan-art and overcompensation). Speaking of which, I have yet to find a suitable artwork featuring Samus outside of her Power Suit for Samus Returns (to be up to date with the latest design of Varia Suit Samus). That's really last image needed for the cleanup.

Any tips for fighting the Queen?

riposte her at the end of each round, grapple her and power bomb her belly. Make copious use of spiderball to stay out of range of her attacks.

In general, learn her attacks and find a reliable way to dodge them and only attack when you have a clear shot. It's not really a damage race.

Spider Ball is god in that fight.

I never once stated Halo was a ripoff of Metroid Prime. Quite the contrary, brought up the well known fact that Halo came before Metroid Prime. What I did say was that Halo ripped from Metroid Prime, which it did. But there is a gulf of difference between "of" and "from", and to misplace the two borders more in mischaracterizing my posts than disagreeing with my opinion. Lots of games ripped from Metroid Prime, almost as much as they did from Halo. You'll be hard pressed to find a first person shooter released after those two games that doesn't have some element of them in it or is the result of some trend they set.

The significance in bringing it up, was that while Nintendo failed to turn Metroid Prime, or Metroid anything into a franchise, Bungie succeeded with Halo. So when looking over what likely made Metroid Prime a good seller, I also looked over what Halo did to have good follow ups, specifically to point out things Metroid doesn't need to do, because Halo did not.

Now the character page? I supposed it'd be inappropriate to just type "wah, wah, wha" and click send, but in all honesty, as weird as it was to change the pictures from one 3D model to another, from a 3D model to concept art, from concept art to another concept art, from official art to fan art, etc, there wasn't anything wrong with most of the images, before or after the sudden shift, or before or after cleanup. Changing images that are perfectly fine on this wiki is the deeper issue, that isn't really being solved. IE phazon. A zoomed out profile of Phaaze is no better or worse than a pile of crystals. There was no reason to swap that, besides spoilers for a ten year old game, I guess. I'd even be fine with that reason if I myself have not been shot down repeatedly, on this wiki, for trying to hide spoilers on "old" material. Yeah, Samus's image was "fan art" but it was also accurate to how she usually looks. There were some problematic pictures, the Infant/Super/Baby Metroid, the Chozo(what the hell was that thing?), but I'm fundamentally against changing images just for the sake of "updating" them. Until the Fusion small shoulders look becomes standard, any image of the varia suit/gravity suit as appears between "Metroid II" and the games own remake works.

I'm not arguing against the ipod look or the waterfowl dragon because of the character page. I've provided images for that(now those) page(s) already and they're pretty much all gone. I put one back (KI Hunters), because it was such an arbitrary, pointless switch only to quickly see it switched out for something even more superfluous. If I wanted to keep MOM off the wiki pages I'd be there doing it. "Trendy" aesthetics bug me, even when they are trends I like, because the zipperiffic fad looks laughable today. We have a whole page for that kind of thing. I can excuse a series born in the time period deliberately setting itself up to become an Unintentional Period Piece, Batman will forever be the baby of "Pulp" and the 1930s US attitudes towards urban crime, but Metroid had already shed the eighties image for it's own thing by "II", ironically the remake of which being a sort of return to form, on the aesthetic front. The game play still looked like the poor Clover/Platinum imitation of MOM but until I play it I'll have to give that the benefit of the doubt and I'm told the cut scene ratio is much lower, with a much better scan mechanic.

I can tell you as someone who just beat the game that cutscenes are rare and dialogue is non-existent. There are some vaguely MO Mish elements (like the Melee counter system) but overall this is a pre MOM experience.

So I watched the Samus Returns part of the Nintendo Championships. It was the Diggernaut chase sequence with a time limit of six minutes.

Man, I am glad to see that I am not the only one who screwed up hard on that part.

edited 7th Oct '17 4:53:42 PM by Eldrake

Oh man, the diggernaut chase.

First time that really catches you off guard, and even the consecutive tries it can be stupidly close unless you got some good reaction times.

edited 11th Oct '17 7:46:59 PM by Geist-Fox

Did Fusion mode, because why not. So much pain. Dying in two hits to the first enemies is not cool. Metroids take off so much damage, though they aren't the biggest threat. No, that's the standard enemies that swarm you all the time. Bosses hit so hard, but are easy to predict. Got 3:51, which is extra sweet. Looks like I can consistently hit sub-4 hours.

Samus suit's health is recorded via energy tanks. It seems to imply that it comes with a defensive system that, as long as it has power, is able to strengthen the material the suit is constructed out of. F-Zero machines work the same way. They have an energy bar that goes down when it takes damage, and the machine is fine, until the energy bar is gone, then it's toast. What exactly is going on here? Is there another sci-fi work where armor works that same way?

edited 21st Oct '17 4:38:03 PM by WillKeaton

The armor is covered with a thin layer of energy shielding that is weakened by hits and can be strengthened with upgrades.

Also, videogame logic. Critical Existence Failure and all

Samus is not afraid of looking silly.

So. Samus Returns.

I admittedly haven't finished it yet - I'm in the fourth or fifth area; the one that unlocks after the one where you get the Grapple Beam - and I'm feeling like the game is a pretty solid return to form.

My one complaint is that it's a little too solid of a return to form. I feel like an opportunity has been missed to explore the relationship between the Chozo, the Metroids, and Samus here. The complete lack of so much as a sapient lifeform for miles around is a great setup for Samus to reflect in the calm moments.

I know, I know, Other M, but y'know, there was a narrative in Zero Mission and Fusion too and those were great. Despite its defenders' contention, Other M did not invent the concept of Samus having a personality and interacting with the audience.

At the very least, internal monologues overlaid over the elevator loading sequences reflecting on Samus's time with the Chozo and asking questions about the Chozo connection to the Metroids would have helped to break up the narrative dearth. As it is, Samus Returns feels a bit like an overreaction to Other M; Sakamoto can't fathom why people were upset at the plot and has consequentially concluded that they were mad that a plot existed at all.

Eh... I think the lack of narrative was based more on the fact that the original game also lacked a narrative rather than an aversion towards reminding people of Other M. Plus it helps emphasize the psuedo-horror atmosphere.

That said I agree with you.

Also, I just bought the game (waiting for it to install atm). I was kind of waiting for a sale, but realized that since this is a first-party title, it probably wouldn't get one anytime soon. Plus watching my brother play some of it made me more interested in getting it sooner rather than later.

Here's hoping I actually finish this one.

I think the Chozo Memories are a good compromise, considering the lack of a narrative in the original and all.

Though I would've liked more Chozo Memories, a bigger backstory-esque thing.

But hey, that final one might mean we can finally push into Metroid 5.

The original Metroid also lacked a narrative but Zero Mission did some pretty cool things with it.

Metroid 5 would be nice, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Super Metroid remake before that happens. I feel like that's what Zero Mission and Returns are leading up to, and I'm sure that Sakamoto would love a chance to revisit the Infant Metroid's sacrifice given that Other M was basically twelve straight hours of "WASN'T THAT SCENE SO COOL?! SO. COOL."

edited 25th Oct '17 11:30:13 AM by TobiasDrake