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This has always bugged me immensely... In Injustice For All, when the assortment of villians capture Batman, why don't they take off his mask? Seriously, it makes no sense whatsover that Lex Luthor and the Joker (and a bunch of other supervillians) wouldn't want to know his identity. (Granted, the Joker wouldn't, but he enters the story much later then when they capture Batman, so there is plenty of time for them to do it before the Joker intrudes.) This goes as far as the Cheetah making out with him. Wouldn't she want to know who exactly she is kissing? I haven't watched it in a while, but did I miss some kind of explanation for this?
She knows exactly who she's kissing: Batman. Seriously, though, one of the first things Luthor tries to do is open up his Utility Belt, and you saw the defenses it has on that. He probably thinks the mask is similar. That said, for the record the Joker didn't come after they captured Bats. In fact, he's the one who helps them capture him.
I stand corrected on the Joker part. The Cheetah part is a moot point. But still, the cowl is shown no properties of defense. And, why wasn't that the first thing they tried instead of bothering with the belt? As soon as he crashed down on the table, any one of them would have tried to unmask him, using Grundy as bait.
I saw recently in some episode that it does have some sort of defense, spraying someone with a gas when he tried to unmask the Bat. I mean, this is Batman we're talking about.
So why didn't he even try it? And sure, the gas would knock out the guy pulling off the mask, but they could just try again, with gas masks. This is Lex Luthor and the Ultra-Humanite we're talking about, I'm sure if that if they didn't have a gas mask they could build one fairly quickly. Even if they couldn't obtain gas masks, they could still try again, as the cowl doesn't have an unlimited supply of it.
You make it sound like the whole thing was done to unmask Batman, they had a plan and were plenty busy enough with it. Besides, everyone knows what happens when his identity is leaked, brain wipes for everyone!
When has the JLA ever brainwashed people who know their identities? Also, while it may not have done just to get Batman, did none of them think, "Well, gee, know would be a great time to learn an extremely valuable secret about one of our greatest foes, a secret that could very well be used against him magnificently in the future?"
What you are actually saying is that you have no memory of any time that a group of people who have access to highly advanced technology, mental powers, and magic and have demonstrated a willingness to go beyond legal constraints have chosen to mess with someone's memory. If you think about it, I'm sure you will see the potential problem with your reasoning.
In that case, it bugs me that they also destroyed the episode footage containing those incidents. Especially since there was that one Superman episode where the guy figured out at the literal last second who Clark Kent was, and that episode went unscathed.
They did it in the comics. Not that it's relevant here.
The answer is simple, none of the villains care who he is. They're there to kill the League, not blackmail them or pursue an ongoing vendetta, aside from Joker who top priority is killing him. Batman was to die right after the Watchtower blew up, if anyone cared they could look once he was dead.
Not unmasking the hero when you've got him captured is one of the big red polka dots on the Villain Ball.
The best answer to your question can be found in ANOTHER JL EPISODE. Luthor swaps bodies with the Flash, and immediately rushes to the mirror to pull off his mask and learn Flash's secret identity! He triumphantly, silently stares at the reflection of Wally West for a minute ... and then says, "I have no idea who this guy is."
Except that happens afterwards, so Luthor couldn't use that as an excuse, and Bruce Wayne is a world famous person, that Luthor has met and dealt with personally for an extended period of time in the past.
"The Great Brain Robbery" happening later actually makes it a better excuse; Luthor realized after the fact that he had missed an opportunity (what with the whole "Busy trying to kill Superman" and "Busy trying to kludge a way to keep my cancer from killing me" business distracting him), and resolved not to pass up a similar chance when he got it in the future. The point that Luthor would have recognized Bruce Wayne is irrelevant; he wasn't expecting Bruce Wayne to be Batman. None of the Injustice Gang had any reason to suspect they would recognize the guy behind the mask, or even care who Batman really was except Joker, who chose not to care. And finally, Batman is known as the DCU's resident Determinator and all around frightening bastard. Would they expect to be able to blackmail him, or would they expect the crazed loner with the privately owned stealth fighter might do something extreme to silence anyone who knows his secret?
As said, primary plan: Destroy league. Remove cowl and you lose at least one ally. Let's say that defense mechanism has multiple uses, or your villain group begins arguing over who is #2 if it does have a second defense mechanism. Let's say there isn't, and while #1 is knocked out for who knows how long the League comes. You are down one person. All the villains present could be said to fall into three groups: Those who are prioritizing the primary mission over discovering who Batman really is (secondary goal that would be pointless if first goal works), those who see Batman as a person who hides by taking off the mask (prefer not to know), and those who are just apathetic.
Secret Origins, Offscreen Get-togethers
After Hawkgirl's very first appearance ("Secret Origins, Part II"), Batman remarks, "Hawkgirl? What's she doing here?" Did those two meet at some prior point in the DCAU, or are we to assume that Batman just knows about all the world's superheroes as part of his crazy preparedness?
He's Batman. He can breathe in space. And while he was breathing in space he met her.
They met before in a very unremarkable incident.
Superheroes tend to be high profile in their exploits. Did you think Batman never picked up a paper once in awhile?
Superman and Green Lantern are on a first-name basis too (Superman calls him "John") even though the episode of Superman: The Animated Series with Green Lantern had Kyle Rayner instead. So, yeah, the assumption is it happened sometime offscreen.
Also, she has wings. And an unsubtle demeanor. I'd say the better questions were: why didn't they all know who she was, and how was she such a competent spy?
Forget Hawkgirl — what about Wonder Woman? "Who's the rookie with the tiara?" is GL's reaction to her — not that anybody ever answers him. J'onn says that he telepathically summoned every hero he could find — but Diana didn't exist as a hero yet — she hadn't "stolen her armor" (Hippolyta's words) until this time, it seemed. Was her origin ever explained in any fashion at all?
The timeline isn't exactly clear. She started getting suited up not long after the invasion. In any case, J'onn, who is in no way familiar with the planet, probably just scanned for a specific thought pattern (the wavelength for "do-gooder", as it were) and told everyone like that to come to their location.
Although it isn't specifically the case with this example, some of the DCAU comics "count" for continuity and some don't. So, for example, witness Batman knowing and working with Jason Blood before in TNBA - which had only happened in a Batman Adventures annual (co-plotted by series creators Bruce Timm and Glenn Murikami) at that point. Of course, Batman also first met * Superman* in a comic... but this was the mid-90s mullet-sporting Superman, complete with red-headed Lex Luthor II as an adversary. Best not to think too much about this type of stuff.
You are ignoring a little thing called "World's Finest". Bats and Supes first met on a cruise ship pursuing a diamond thief. They tangled over Lois, and there was some bad reasoning to get Bats to do anything of importance. Forgettable, but the first meeting, none-the-less.
Eh? The "World's Finest" episode I remember - from Superman: The Animated Series - was a rather excellent first meeting between Bats and Supes centred on the Joker offering to kill Superman for a tidy sum from Lex Luthor.
The reference is to the comic book, "World's Finest," which was the Superman/Batman of the day. The story about the cruise ship was from Superman #76 titled "The Mightiest Team in the World." A different version of this story was done in Superman/Batman Annual #1.
Would that count? He said DCAU comics...
Why in the name of every world in the Multiverse would you assume that Batman wouldn't either know or know of nearly every single superhero on the planet Earth?
In Universe, it's still an incredibly random, and small, assortment of heroes that answered the call. Especially when someone others (such as Vigilante) claimed to be active offscreen during the Thanagarian invasion, at least.
Its probably assumed that all the heroes that could actually travel fast enough to heed the call were occupied in some way. Because even if Vigilante was active, unless he was within 100 miles of the military base, he wouldn't have made it in time on that motocycle.
Still, Supergirl was already established as active in the DCAU via the Superman series. Even if she had been "occupied" during the initial invasion/conquest bit, you'd think she'd have cleared her schedule a bit when her "cousin"/big-brother figure Superman was captured. Not to mention you'd have to be a REALLY busy hero to not drop what you were doing and intervene there...you'd think an alien attempt to destroy the planet would be one of those events that even most VILLAINS would be opposed to(like they were to Darkseid's attempt at the same during the finale). Also, Superman and Supergirl are both faster than Wonder Woman. Considering she managed to get to the battle site clear from Themyscera, I doubt getting there in time would have been an issue for Supergirl either.
Exactly, there was an invasion going on at the moment and don't you think that trying to evacuate civilians or fight off the 'War of the Worlds' style walkers might of occupied their time?
Forget the in-universe stuff for a sec. Okay, Batman and Superman had their own shows, and everyone in the Western hemisphere basically knew the basic idea behind each of them anyway. The Flash was introduced in Superman's series, though no origin or secret identity was ever given. A version of Green Lantern was also introduced, but a very different version, and no explanation for this GL is ever provided either. Either way, they're both well-known superheroes, but not as well known as Superman, Batman or many Marvel characters. We're given insight into Martian Manhunter's origin, fair enough, but Hawkgirl? I'm not sure how many people were aware of Hawk MAN, let alone his wife, and neither are ever seen in Superman or Batman's series' (although a Hawkmanesque character is seen in Batman Beyond)!!! BUT!!! the episode gives us Wonder Woman's origin inasmuch as it explains why she choses to help the heroes. Now, Wonder Woman's origin isn't as storied as Superman or Batman's, but still! Most people AT-LEAST knew who she was, inasmuch asa the name and costume would be familiar!
And yes, I'm aware that during Legends (comics) she was reintroduced as if she was a wholly new character, but still!
You don't need to reveal the origin of a character right away, in Silver-Age style, at least not for all the characters in the cast. You can have a character jump to the action, and keep the audience wondering about his background for some time. The origin of Wolverine took DECADES to be revealed, Hawkgirl's origin in the animated series took just two seasons.
Flash's magic punch
How exactly did Flash punching the Brainiac out of Luthor work? I guess you have to assume that, rather than "truly becoming one", all that happened was Luthor was wearing Brainiac like a suit...except that would mean that Brainiac used the Dark Heart to pull himself out of Luthor's innards and restore them to exactly the way they were prior to "becoming one", which is rather the opposite of what "becoming one" means, I would think. I still really can't think of any reason besides Rule of Cool—which must suffice at times—that just running around the planet and punching a dude would be enough to separate them, given how completely. There are a lot of things that bug me about that particular revelation, but that's the biggest one; the other thing is, how far are we supposed to take Brainiac's "subtly manipulating events until we arrived at this point"? I'm assuming that he was just overstating things, and all he did was suggest "Hey, wouldn't it be neat to find some way to transfer yourself into a nigh-invulnerable body?" Really, I can't think of anything that Luthor did that needed the explanation that Brainiac was pulling his strings.
Everyone knows that in DCU going in circles really quickly lets you break physics. No, really.
Watch the scene again. The Flash's World Punch (patent pending) just causes massive damage and incapacitates Luthor/Brainiac. Brainiac was actually removed through some vibrating fist type of thing. This troper always assumed that he somehow vibrated Brainiac out of Luthor's cells. Slightly less implausible.
Only slightly. That Flash is able to control his ability to the effect that only parts of Brainiac were destroyed, leaving Lex unharmed then that suggests he should have great deal of control over his ability. The Great Brain Robbery has confirmed that Flash's vibrations create "an unstable resonance" - which is why Flash doesn't actually use that trick a great deal. That suggests that he knows he doesn't have too much control over his vibration. Unless of course, he just chooses not to use it?
All the running really fast previous to where he jammed his vibrating hands into Luthor (Wow, that sounds dirty.) let him tap into the Speed Force and he was suddenly, briefly, really good at control. Hand Wave and so forth.
Well, that and the fact that being hyper-accelerated probably gave him an increased awareness of what his abilities were doing to Luthor. He might have been moving so fast that, from his perspective, any damage he caused to Luthor's body was so slow to develop that he could fix it the very femtosecond after he caused it.
Exactly. remember that right after this incident, Flash nearly vanished into the Speed Force altogether. This Troper just assumed that he tapped into so much of the Speed Force that he had nearly perfect control of what he was doing.
I always assumed that Flash was sifting the Brainiac-particles out of the Luthor-particles to separate the two of them, and just didn't bother to preserve Brainiac's structure and/or neglected to do so in favor of making sure Lex didn't die horribly from the experience.
The only other I could think of would be to have Flash (or someone else) beat BrainiLex to death. On Cartoon Network. You think that's going to happen?
Isn't the real problem here that the Flash ran all the way around the world to punch Luthor rather than just double back?
He was expecting a punch from the front. He thinks Flash is running away like a coward and goes back to building the doomsday weapon. Remember?
Maybe it is when you consider how many people might have died when their streets inexplicably went from paved to pothole in a second. In terms of what he was trying to do, however, it makes sense. He builds up more energy by circling the globe, and thus hits that much harder by the time he gets back. A second or two wasted is well worth the extra power.
As for Braniac's 'subtly manipulating Luthor' thing, this troper thinks there's some sense in there. Brainiac was actually INSIDE Luthor for quite a while in nanotech form, waiting for him make something Brainiac could use as a body. Lex supposedly got Kryptonite-cancer from his little stash of Kryptonite, but that potentially marks the point where Brainiac decides waiting isn't productive and starts to reconfigure Lex into a working body. (After all, he's acting like a cancer and he's from Krypton, so Brainiac could probably fake it.) Brainiac probably was hoping for Cadmus to whip up something suitable for him to download into; going for the Dark Heart seems to have been an emergency backup plan. Otherwise, the whole Cadmus thing ends up being nothing more than an overly-complicated and very petty revenge plot on the heroes by Luthor.
I realize Cartoon Physics are in effect here, but Flash, other than his speed, is an ordinary man (if a very strong one). Wouldn't punching Luthor (or anything, really) at that speed shatter his arm into a million bloody pieces?
At that point he had tapped into the full power of the Speed Force. In the comics, the Speed Force actually protects Flash from things like that...not too far fetched, relatively speaking, to assume it was doing the same here.
To go along with the above, this Troper considers the Flash's powers to be largely "getting things done in less time" from Flash's perspective rather than "moving really fast". If so, no matter HOW fast Flash was going, it would be no more painful for Flash than punching someone while running past them at full speed. Meanwhile Braniac/Luthor would feel the full wrath of normal physics after getting hit by an object going that fast.
With regard to the larger question of how Flash rips Braniac and Luthor apart, I think this is a case of Heroic Resolve and/or Eleventh Hour Superpower. Flash has been shown able to move fast enough that he and those he brings along can pass through solid objects. What's to say he can't rip out all the "Brainiac" and leave Luthor's internals otherwise intact? In "It's only a Dream" and "Flash and Substance" we see that Flash is pretty much never getting close to the limits of his power. His Rogue's gallery is nowhere near his power level and he's also afraid to go all out as well. Given that in "Divided We Fall" he's LITERALLY the last man standing and thus the only one who can stop Braniac/Lex from destroying the UNIVERSE... If there ever was a time to go for the limit, this is it. Luthor was just lucky he was vain enough to compel the Braniac/Luthor gestalt to rebuild his human body.
"Comfort and Joy"
Martha Kent's Homemade Sweater From Hell bugs me, primarily because it was too big. For J'onn freaking J'onzz. I could understand this if the sweater was intended for superchested Clark Kent, but Martha clearly states that the sweater was an extra from a community service knitting group effort. Is there anybody else on the planet besides her adoptive son that could have worn that thing comfortably? Good thing J'onn's a shapeshifter.
I hate to say it, but you really underestimate America.
Also due to the nature of the art style Superman and Martian Manhunter share very similar builds anyway. Even the Flash is stacked like a bodybuilder.
Also, it's an extra from a knitting group. It's possible, maybe even likely, that it's an "extra" because the person who knitted it screwed up, and made it too big.
How do you think "superchested Clark Kent" managed to blend in with the rest of Smallville in the first place?
Either that, or whoever made the sweater used the wrong needle size when they made their sweater. Depending on her pattern, they could have easily grabbed the wrong type of needles (too big) and accidentally created a larger sweater. Given this hypothesis, it's probable that they are one of two things: A n00b (possibly a grandchild of one of Mrs. Kent's friends), or someone who has a hard time reading small print, and grabs the wrong size needles.
Let's not forget that this is a somewhat rural farming community too. Big chested men would not seem out of place.
This is just a small thing, but am I the only one who finds it a little weird that Superman apparantly still believes in Santa Claus?
I think it's mainly been contained to joke issues and one-shots stories, but hasn't it been confirmed that Santa Claus (Or at least one version of him) does exist in the DCU (I recall reading somewhere on this site that he once gave Darkseid a lump of coal)? I wouldn't be surprised if Superman has actually met Santa.
Not just once. He does it every year.
Who says he really believes in Santa Claus? Until the day he died my dad insisted that every Christmas gift I was ever given was "from Santa" not from my parents. Even long after I had stopped believing in Santa he still kept it up. I guess he thought it was funny or cute or something. Maybe Clark is doing the same thing?
Superman isn't shown as believing in Santa Claus. It's pretty clear in the episode when he "corrects" Pa Kent that he didn't do it cause he didn't KNOW, but that he did it as part of "being in the spirit of the season". Sure, he knows Santa isn't real, but since for him, Santa is a part of Christmas, you play along like he is.
Hawkgirl the two-timer?
This just strikes me as so odd, and nobody seems to be remarking on it. So Hawkgirl was engaged to Hro Talak, explicitly said she was in love with him, went on a mission to earth and just kinda... forgot about him and started a new relationship with John, only to kinda temporarily toss him aside when Hro comes back until they have their falling out at which point she decides she's in love with John more? That is... an unspeakably dickish move, and frankly that's grounds for never getting back together even ignoring the whole betraying the entire human race thing. And yet the second Hro's beaten, he's just never brought up again, forgotten like the villain of the week he was, leaving only the discomfort of her betraying the human race to stand in the way of her relationship with John? Seriously? Is there something I'm missing? why is she given a free pass in this area?
She doesn't "decide" who to fall in love with. That's not how love works. What happened was Hawkgirl was under deep cover — she was there with a cover story, and acted in line with that cover story, which included being free to pursue relationships. Getting into someone's bed is a classic spy move. But, like the cliche goes, Hawkgirl found herself Becoming the Mask. She didn't plan to fall in love with John, it just happened. And then, one of the men she loved was planning to commit genocide, and the other wasn't. She made a choice then — not choosing to love John more, but choosing the guy who was not planning to end an innocent world.
My point is why did she agree to go out with John in the first place if she genuinely cared about him? It she meant what she had said when she told John that she "never lied about [being in love with him]", then that means that at no point was she "getting into someone's bed as a spy move". She simply loved him. It doesn't change the fact that she pretty much tossed him aside without much guilt the second her fiancee came back, which she had to have known would happen eventually. Also, nothing about her cover story mandated that she couldn't tell John that she had a significant other back home, so she didn't have to pretend to be single as part of that cover story. So she has no excuse for leading John on like that.
A couple things here — 1. Hawkgirl didn't jump into bed with him (she is the most reluctant of the two to start anything, and takes considerable convincing), and 2. you don't necessarily love someone or even say that you love them when you first start dating. Her cover story was that she had no idea where she was in the galaxy and had no way of getting home, so even if her cover story included a significant other, it's been years since she saw him and for all she knew it was impossible to get back to him — i.e., she's effectively single. Hell, even if she was reluctant to do it, that might have been her instructions — to pretend to be single and available to get in with people. Chances are, Hawkgirl had some feelings for John, but gave the excuses and put off his advances because she was engaged and didn't feel comfortable with using him like that. Then it came to a point where continuing to put him off would start looking suspicious (i.e., after he nearly dies saving her life), so she started going out with him, rationalizing it as doing her job as a spy. Then those feelings turned into love, which she hadn't planned for. Then when her fiance shows up, she sides with him because that's her job, and she thinks that it's the best thing for her to do.
Video from another dimension
How did the US government in this dimension get the video about Justice Lord Superman killing President Luthor in the other dimension?
This one is addressed in an earlier episode. The Justice League had to do the US government several favours in order to get Lex Luthor a pardon. One of those "favours" was to give them information on the world of the Justice Lords. So presumably the Justice League gave them a tape they had found in the world of the Justice Lords.
It wasn't a video tape. It was a computer simulation based on the information the League gave them.
My assumption (and I think there's Word of God to this effect) is that Huntress only assumed that video was one of the computer simulations, when it was in fact the actual recording. Which is why it bothered Superman so much when she brought it up.
From the angle of the shot it was a security camera, but... Why was that camera fitted with a microphone?
He wouldn't be the first President to record everything that happened in his office. And he wouldn't be the first President to have it come back to bite him.
I have two: where did Luthor get the video of alternate universe Superman killing the alternate universe Luthor, and why did the Question think they were in a time loop and that there would be a superhuman arms race when in the alternate universe, the original Justice League just became tyrants? Granted, he is a crazy conspiracy theorist... maybe I'm just overthinking things...
He didn't have the video, Cadmus did, the League gave it to them. Waller explains that they had to give the government all the info they had from the alternate reality to secure Luthor's pardon, and they probably brought a copy back with them.
What he says is why Luthor knew of his death in another world. And i was under the assumption that Luthor was in bed with Cadmus, literally. So it's no surpise he could get his hands on this piece of info. And no Q is crazy conspiracy theorist, but c'mon Luthor is smart (aside from Forty pies that are cakes) and it would be logical to assume that he would use that information to his advantage. New host body (Amazo model), control over media, recent Justice Lords event (not so recent but still), the whole Orbital laser thing. Faking his death, while claiming that Superman did it out of hatred - and well...
This Troper considers "Question's Time Loop" a bit of Fridge Horror that requires a bit of wider look at the DC continuity as a whole. Looking at every "Alternate Universe", "Alternate Future", and "Crisis Event" across all media, you tend to see the same pattern: In any post-apocalyptic universe, either Superman or Lex Luthor is dead. Usually the other is the killer. In any Universe where its not a post-apocalypse both men are alive and well and enjoying a spirited rivalry. Look at DC Universe on-line as an example. Mere seconds after Lex kills Superman, Braniac invades earth. In universes without Lex, Superman usually turns into a tyrant akin to Darksied a la the Justice Lords or "Crisis on Two Earths". The same thing seems to exist between Flash and Dr. Zoom following the recent "Flashpoint" event that just rebooted the comic universe. Its not a time-loop for the DCAU, its DC's Ragnarok cycle.
How the hell did Joker waltz into a (presumably) highly-guarded government center and march off with five metahumans? And I was just about to praise the DCAU for not making its characters constantly jobbing to the Joker, too...
What? He killed them. All of them. With his Joker Venom. That was implied. Remember the first appearances of Joker in Batman: The Animated Series, his venom was non-lethal, then by Mask of the Phantasm, he could kill people with it.
Allow me to elaborate: the metahuman-containment center was implied to belong to Cadmus, y'know, that ridiculously large and well-funded government center? At the very least, this troper would expect stuff like fingerprint-scanning pads, retina scanners, Mooks posted at every door... In addition, the place was holding five highly-dangerous metahumans, which meant that it should have at least double the security that most government centers should have. I can swallow the Joker regularly giving guys like Batman (who have trained all their life) trouble; I can swallow him getting sent to Arkham time and time again instead of getting the chair. What I cannot swallow is him screwing around with the entire US government as if they were five-year olds.
I think you vastly underestimate the US government's (or any government's) potential for rank incompetence.
Not to mention: if he can give (two varieties of) Batman a decent fight, how hard are some government mooks and some security systems?
I interpreted that he organized a jailbreak with the Royal Flush Gang helping from the inside. Ace's God Mode powers must've helped immeasurably. Also, we know that Joker had insiders at Cadmus based on "Epilogue" and "Return of the Joker."
If you prefer a very simple solution, remember that the entire flashback is a story told by somebody who is both insane and a habitual liar who lives to Mind Screw. In a later episode, Waller admits that Cadmus had some link to the creation of the Royal Flush; everything else is hearsay.
"Civil war on Apokolips? Good."
What bugs me is the fact that the Justice League was evidently content to not only allow but actively perpetuate a civil war on Apokolips. Did they have a plan to deal with it eventually, or were they just going to let everyone fight until they were all dead? And if it's the latter, wouldn't a more humane course be to just blow up the planet or something?
The JL's focus is on protecting Earth. If the civil war had threatened Earth, they would have acted, but until that time it served their goals - namely, tying up Apokolips for a while and letting them deal with more immediate threats like the Thanagarian invasion.
That and blowing up Apokolips would be quite the undertaking. It's not like the League keeps planet-cracking bombs on hand, and assuming they had a hero who could pull off the job, they'd have to do it quickly and quietly. So much as a soul notices and you have a planet of pissed-off people with superpowers and advanced alien technology with no obligation to follow the treaty Darkseid had with Highfather. As proved in "Destroyer", the League would probably have won, but that's not a gamble you want to make. It's a lot easier to let these people waste their resources killing one-another then dealing with whatever fool came out on top.
Exactly. To use a Real Life diplomatic term, the Justice League was essentially practicing realpolitik in regards to the civil war on Apokolips. Every second that the Apokoliptian warlords like Granny or Vundabar are tied up fighting over the scraps of Darkseid's empire is one less second that they're plotting to take over Earth. It drains Apokolips's resources, keeps them too busy to bother Earth or any other planet, and thus is beneficial not only to Earth but to every planet that Darkseid's regime had had in its crosshairs. It's not hard to imagine Batman actively encouraging the League to let Darkseid's former underlings beat the crap out of each other, knowing the strategic benefit that this provides for Earth and the rest of the Universe.
Martian Manhunter explicitly mentions this in "The Ties That Bind" when Big Barda and Mr. Miracle seek the League's help in rescuing Oberon, who has been taken hostage by Granny Goodness to blackmail Mr. Miracle into getting Kalibak out of the X-Pit (as Miracle was the only one to ever escape). They ask specifically for Superman's help and get this response:
Martian Manhunter: Superman's on a mission in deep space, but even if he weren't, it makes no sense for the League to help another dictator come to power on Apocalypse. A dictator who could eventually threaten Earth, just as Darkseid did. Better to let them fight among themselves than attack the rest of the universe.
I suppose it was meant that her comment to Flash being like "the entire track team at once" was a reference to multiple-partner sex.
When Flash is facing the Mirror Master's hologram in the abandoned disco, he uses a disc from a blown-up machine to sever the wires holding up the disco ball that's firing lasers at him. There are other lights that have been activated in the disco, but Flash didn't sever any of them - yet, as he's walking out of the disco afterwards, one of those lights (not the disco ball, which has already fallen and been smashed) drops to the ground. So...why exactly did the light fall, since Flash didn't tamper with it and there was no damage done to any of the lights?
Sometimes a structural failure is just a structural failure.
Yeah, the place is clearly old and abandoned. It's no surprise things start falling down once a superhero fight starts up inside.
"The Once and Future Thing"
The whole defeat of Chronos. Passing by the whole "sympathetic Anti-Villain one episode irredeemably psychotic monster the next" thing, which has always bugged me about Chronos, Bats reversed Chronos' changed by trapping him in a time loop with his wife. So... wait. How? Is his wife is stuck in there with him? How does time keep going on if part of it is replaying every few seconds; shouldn't everyone still be replaying everything in the next few seconds? Or is it only effecting Chronos... which raises more questions. Is the anomaly restricted only to his home? Does the fact that time is still going on mean that he eventually gets out? As a final point, that seems extraordinarily cruel, especially for Batman, who, despite appearances, isn't generally that heartless. It's a fate much, much worse than death, after all. I've always disliked the whole "superhero opting not to kill the villain but instead intentionally doing something worse" type of ending, and that coming from Batman (who is a strong believer in not taking punishment into one's own hands) of all people is kind of annoying.
That whole "sympathetic in one episode, not so much in the next" thing strikes me as the consequence of a lot of Offscreen Villainy. For us, viewing things from the heroes' perspectives, it hasn't been that long since we last saw him, but for Chronos, considering all the wealth and power and architecture he's gathered by the time we meet him again, it looks like he's been carrying on his activities for at least a decade or two. A few years of basically getting anything you want whenever you want it might turn anyone into a monster.
What happened to Chronos is as follows: Batman set his belt to loop him back to a few seconds before the moment he came to the Watchtower. Implicitly, he has trapped Chronos in a self-rewinding (remember, the belt has shown the power to fastforward or rewind time in a localized area when Chronos melted the safe) time loop of those few moments. From Chronos' perspective, he's just doing what he did at the start, and has no memory of anything he was originally going to do, or of having looped back to this moment. From an observer's perspective, he's just plain gone, and never coming back. When he hits that button, he ceases to exist from then on for all practical purposes. As for the What the Hell, Hero? on Batman's part, what else could you expect him to do? Chronos had royally scrambled his time-line, and the only way to stop it was to undo the triggering event. Chronos' fate, while bad, really can't be said to be excessive when he destroyed time.
Perhaps, depending on what you think on the metaphysics of it all, the nature of Free Will is still up in the air in the DCAU, so that perhaps what Batman reprogrammed the belt so that "Chronos" would never exist. Perhaps until David Clinton can reassert himself in front of his wife and tell her why his inventions are good and thus allow for him to grow into a better person.
Batman knew that, if he just disabled the belt, Chronos could just fix it or build a new one. He also had no way of knowing who Cronos actually was, but he did know what his home time period was, because he'd been there. So, he set the belt to loop everything within a few feet of it when it's activated (you'll notice that the wife's voice was audible outside their home, but there was no time flash, so the rest of the universe isn't looping). Eventually someone would discover them, who would bring in the police, which would eventually bring in the future Justice League. They, in turn, would have instructions from present Batman about how to end the loop, how to permanently disable the belt, how to use the belt to fix someone who was halfway in the area of effect (before disabling it), what to do if the belt turns out to have been stolen from aliens who want their tech back, etc.
Another thing from "The Once and Future Thing". Batman and Lantern are the only two that remember what happens. Let me repeat...Batman KNOWS that he is going to have a successor. Yeah I know he never saw Terry without the mask, and Old!Bruce didn't call him by name in front of the others...but I guess, personally it bugs me, because I'd like to think Batman knew he could trust Terry with his legacy because of what Terry said to Bruce in Rebirth Pt. 2, as well as Terry proving he can handle it. Instead, from that moment I bet Batman deduced that when Terry stole his Beyond Suit, that THAT was the same person he met in the future. I dunno, someone got an explanation that still doesn't take away from Bruce putting his faith in Terry-even with the before-hand knowledge?
On the other hand, Batman didn't know what would happen in between those times, such as the Joker kidnapping Robin (Tim Drake) and making him a Joker Jr. in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. Or when Batman was forced to pull out a gun on a thug in the pilot episode of Batman Beyond. To paraphrase Terry: something happened, and it's not just that Batman got old.
Batman knew that someday someone would be the new Batman... but not who would it be, nor in which circumstances would they met. So, when the day came, he must have asked himself: is this Terry the guy destined to become the new Batman? Or just a Leeroy Jenkins who stole a Batman suit? What to do? The best action to take: just be true to himself, and react to the robbery as he would have reacted anyway if there was no such time-travel scenario.
I have to second the above. First he certainly puts Terry in some rough spots that first night for someone that he "knew" was going to be the next Batman (though I guess you can play as rough as you like with someone you KNOW will survive)but it's fairly heavily implied in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker that Nightwing is still active. Though given the age of Barbara in the series I suspect that the mantle of Nightwing had to have been passed down to someone new and even amongst trusted friends it's probably bad form to give out secret identities.
Let's note that while Batman did indeed see a future, it was a badly corrupted time-line in which all kinds of things were wrong and some things (Green Lantern's identity, Wonder Woman's very existence) were changing right before their eyes. Also, those were Joker's Jokerz the League were fighting, indicating that the events of Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker either hadn't happened yet or were never going to in this time-line due to Chronos being in charge. In other words, everything that Batman and Green Lantern remember from this time-line is only a possible future, and some of it only possible due to lots of temporal meddling. (Those Jokerz certainly never had so many deadly upgrades in the actual Batman Beyond future.) Batman not only had no way of knowing Terry would be his successor, but no way of being certain he would even decide to have one. After seeing how badly that future ended, he might well have strongly reconsidered whether it was right to endanger another youngster with his legacy.
Why was everyone so terrified of Tobias Manning's literal-six-gun? I mean, I get that it'd be unnerving, but... you can still shoot him. He could have a thousand different guns on the thing and it still wouldn't stop a bullet. Heck, Bat Lash had him at gunpoint when he revealed the thing, and he just put his gun down as if he'd been trumped. Why couldn't he be like "Nice gun!" *BANG*. And don't say "Well, he could have a force field or something" because it was specifically the gun that everyone was frightened of.
Since the six barrels are on those arms it would make sense to presume it can target multiple people at once. It is also a laser weapon and these are people from over a hundred years ago, they are most likely freaked out by how alien it seems as well as afraid of him after he used it to kill who knows how many in fights.
Not really something that gets on my nerves a great deal, but...how come the allergen affects J'onn? I mean, I know it's targeted at males, but he's an alien. For that matter, so's Superman. Though since it was never really explained how it works, it could work on even alien males, and I'm probably mildly confused for nothing. Ah, well.
Given that Aresia made it using Earth-based germ warfare knowledge, it should just be targeting the Y chromosome. Since both Kryptonians and Martians are two-gender species, it stands to reason they might have similar genetic structures, at least where Hollywood Science is concerned.
Of course most two-gendered species on planet Earth don't have X-Y chromosome distinction, either...A Wizard Did It.
Also, the fact that one of the ingredients is apparently gemstone dust suggests there may be a magical element involved.
If you're crazy enough to try and kill every man on the planet, yes, identify-as-male-females need to go too.
You guys are all over-thinking this. The scientific definition of a male refers to organisms with the physiological sex which produces sperm. The scientific definition of a female refers to the physiological sex of an organism, or a part of an organism, which produces non-mobile ova (egg cells). We know that Kryptonians and Martians reproduce in a similar way to humans - its a very simple definition a magical virus would be able to make.
Your "scientific definition of male" only applies to Earth organisms. There is no reason to assume an alien species would work the same way, even if their biology seems superficially similar. And for the record, we don't actually know if Kryptonians and Martians reproduce in a similar way to humans. Did we ever see a Kryptonian or a Martian couple conceive an offspring and give birth? For all we know, Kryptonians could reproduce through airborne spores and Martians could reproduce by budding.
Airborne spores? So, Superman could accidentally knock up Supergirl just by sneezing at her?
You're over simplifying, you could compare fish reproduction to a cloud of genetic material but no one says they just accidentally shoot off the stuff at random.
There is no reason to assume they wouldn't work the same way either.
Did Star Sapphire and Tsukuri temporarily take leave of their senses? At least Aresia had suffered a great deal, didn't realize just how interconnected the world is and had been apparently brought up on a strong anti-male message, those two had no excuse. Did they not notice the large numbers of planes, cars, trucks and trains crashing in the first few minutes of the plan? Did they not stop to realize that they could reasonably expect a total collapse of society, especially in regions with far fewer women trained in business, politics, engineering, farming, criminal justice and medicine? That's not even getting into the blatantly obvious problem of how exactly humanity was supposed to survive another generation.
You got me. Maybe Aresia promised to teach them how to make babies in a more literal fashion the way Hippolyta made Wonder Woman. Assuming Aresia did the research on human interconnectedness, but since Wonder Woman implicitly didn't know exactly what made the continued existence of men so important, she probably didn't either, so if then, SS and Tsuruki have no excuse.
Perhaps the "allergen" she released didn't affect frozen sperm, so she was figuring that society could be rebuilt after a generation, with men treated as chattel? Yes, there would surely be incredible suffering even among their own gender, but Aresia is a Knight Templar, and the other two are most likely sociopaths.
Not sure about Tsukuri, but isn't Star Sapphire an alien? Doesn't she have pretty much the same powers as GL? Presumably if she wants to be around men again she could just go to another planet.
According to promo materials and Word of God, the Star Sapphire in the series is Carol Ferris, so she's about as much an alien as Kyle Rayner, John Stewart, and Hal Jordan: In other words, her powers came from aliens, but she herself isn't not one.
Maybe they just hate men too and don't care what happens to society as long as men are completely wiped out? Or maybe they are just happy to commit GendercideFor the Evulz.
What I want to know is, if Sapphire really wanted to go along with a plan that would wipe out Hal Jordan, then just what is her gem's power being fueled by?
Just been thinking about this and wondered if anyone had a different opinion: Suppose Aresia actually did succeed in wiping out all male life on the planet. Then what? Does she suppose she'll educate all women in her skewed version of Amazon culture? Does she think Hera will bless all females with eternal life, eliminating the need to give birth ever again?
Given that she was willing to literally murder half the human race, she's obviously very unhinged. It's entirely possible that she had absolutely no plan for what would happen after all the men were wiped out.
It's the DC Universe, they have magic at their disposal. Sure, Dr. Fate must have been a victim too, but they still have Inza and Zatanna. They can surely find a magical way to produce new babies. Solved that problem, the only-women society can work, all areas of human society have female presence, so after the transition everything should go back to normal. Yes, all areas of human society can work without men if needed... except one. Some centuries pass, Earth becomes the Amazon world, with men being just an old myth... and the crew of a delivery business and a pompous general crash into the planet, and the voice soon spreads out that they can be used for "snu snu".
And there was a completely different outcome of the invasion of Thanagar here. It would be more or less like...
Hro Talak: Listen, peoples of Earth! We are the Thanagarians! You will now help us to build a giant cannon to destroy our mortal enemies, the Gordanians!
Super Girl: Yes, yes, whatever. I heard that Hawkmen can be used for Snu-Snu!
To the person who said the all woman society could work, this troper disagrees. The DCAU universe isn't as well off as the main comic continuity. Not to mention, it would have only been a mater of time before the women who aren't complete feminazis took Aresia out. Wonder Woman, Shayera, Zatanna, Vixen, Barda, etc. All extremely powerful females who wouldn't take too kindly to Aresia's views, she wouldn't even be living long in such a world. Also, I wouldn't put it past a female magic user to go back in time and stop it from ever even happening, by just the barest moment.
Not to mention that "work" is a highly subjective term. Could the human race survive if all the men died out and the women of Earth used magic and comic book superscience to reproduce artificially? Maybe. But it wouldn't be pretty. While the above troper is technically correct that all areas of society have a female presence, the ratio of men-to-women in certain professions is still very one-sided. The United States is among the most progressive countries in the world in terms of gender roles, yet there are still many vital professions that are very male-dominated. Farming, engineering, medicine, and so on are all heavily male-dominated professions. If all those male farmers, engineers, and doctors died out overnight the world would be plunged into chaos as the few women who work in those fields today struggle to pick up the slack. It would take many years for enough women to be trained to replace those dead men, and in the mean time the world would suffer an extreme shortage of farmers, engineers, doctors, and other vital skilled professionals we rely on to maintain a functioning society. Millions upon millions of innocent women would die of cold and hunger alone in the aftermath of Aresia's gendercide.
Insanity aside, her only knowledge of men comes from a childhood in a war-torn country and a brief encounter with some pirates, plus whatever misandrist propaganda Hippolyta fed her. She lives in a society of immortals in a pop-culture version of ancient Greek culture who forbid outsiders or even knowledge of the outside world. It's a safe bet she has no idea how the outside world works, and probably just assumed that once she killed all males things would immediately improve and the women of the world would thank her.
Star Sapphire and Tsukuri may simply have not thought it through. Sapphire has a magic gem that makes whatever she wants and has still resorted to petty crime. Tsukuri...maybe she's good at killing things but not too smart or insightful otherwise? No, they're both aliens who will leave Earth after getting whatever Aresia's paying them, that's it.
"A Better World"
The Concept depends on Superman and the Justice League being willing to jump straight over to the Dark side just because Flash was murdered; I get that there was a nuclear war on the brink as well but it seems farfetched. And how did they take over the world? They were seven of them and the whole military.
It wasn't just that Flash was murdered and there was a nuclear war on the brink—it's also that Lex Luthor murdered Flash and was elected president, so he got away with it. Those things, particularly the American people electing Luthor, were enough to show the Justice League that "Hey, these people just can't handle democracy and their freedoms."
As for how? They have Superman, who's invulnerable, and fast enough to dodge anything that can hurt him, especially when he's not holding back. The Martian Manhunter, who's all that and psychic and can become intangible. Wonder Woman, who's just a step below that. Green Lantern, who wields what's acknowledged, in universe, as the most powerful weapon in the universe. And Batman, who has near limitless resources and who, through Wayne Tech, probably has a considerable amount of pull with the US government.
When they take the gloves off, there isn't a damn thing the US military could've done to stop them.
Presumably they convinced a few regional powers to work with them, maybe through popular revolutions (they could gain a lot of sympathy by reminding everyone Luthor is still a murderous super villain who very nearly took control of the richest most powerful nation on Earth). Their powers combined with conventional military might do the trick, though presumably someone would have held out somewhere.
The episode ends with all the Justice Lords except Batman depowered by Luthor's ray, then sent back to their own world. With six of their greatest heroes powerless, does this mean that their Earth is completely screwed as soon as the Thanagarian invasion arrives? Or is Lord Hawkgirl's alternate costume (her helmet is identical to the one that League-Hawkgirl wore in the Thanagarian military) a signal that the invasion already happened or won't happen at all?
Judging by the series' tone, I'm guessing that the Justice Lords offered the Thanagarians a dual ultimatutm and offer of alliance: their enemies' heads on a plate, or their own.
They still had Batman. The Thanagarians wouldn't have stood a chance.
Their timeline seemed to be set several years later, so they probably went through the invasion already. Now on the other hand, when the next planet-threatening crisis happens, that Earth is fairly screwed.
I thought the Justice Lords were imprisoned on this earth after being stripped of their powers. I may have to rewatch the end to make sure though.
Remember that Justice Lords Earth apparently has no war anymore (its probably best not to think about how that happened) but they still have plenty of police and tanks on hand to deal with disturbances in Arkham Asylum... plus mass-produced Superman robots. Lord Batman could easily whip up robot duplicates of his allies to keep things under control while uniting the worlds military and police enough to combat any other invasion that comes in. Plus... mass-produced Superman robots.
Those Superman robots were worthless. They had decent physical strength but their endurance was pathetic; the Justice League were ripping the things apart with an absurd amount of minimal effort. They weren't bright either; demonstrating no strategy and even showing one of them thanking the League for a beating as it's disembodied head flew through the air. The Thanagarians would have literally laughed their asses off when confronted by these things.
Something else about "A Better World": The power-stripping gun Lex Luthor built and used on the Justice Lords. If it worked so well, why was it never used on any of the other supervillains the Justice League faced in the rest of the series? Why didn't Lex ever build another one? Given his photographic memory, it's not as if he couldn't remember how! Why didn't the superhero-paranoid government ask him to build them one?
Word of God on the issue is that since Lex turned the gun over to the League, they'd be ready with a countermeasure next time. Which is kind of a handwave, but hey. As for why they never used it again...the only thing I can think of is that it'd be too similar to lobotomizing all their enemies (since more Word of God states that it works by generating some sort of neurological interference, which is the only reason it works on so many different powers—particularly the reason it was able to affect GL).
Why not just have Luthor try to build a better gun? We the viewers know in-story that they went the Frankenstein route so that their creations (Doomsday, the Ultimen, Galatea) could turn on them and prove the league was right all along but mechanical countermeasures can't think for themselves and escape your control unlike biological ones.
There's always the possibility that Lex is perfectly willing to lie and cheat, but when he makes an actual DEAL with someone, he upholds it. When he didn't use the gun on the real League at the end of the episode he does mention "A deal's a deal" and hands the gun over rather than taking the opportunity to defeat the real League once and for all. I know I'm stretching, but I have seen a character in some game or something I once played who would lie, double cross, etc, but if he actually swore an oath to do(or not do) something, he would uphold it no matter how much he disliked the idea.
Also, organic beings have greater ingenuity and initaitve than machines and can adapt; they can be hacked as well.
I thought Project Cadmus was the "better gun," and Luthor's presidential pardon was just a way of getting his scientific knowledge under government control. Like Werner von Braun. (Although I admit even one of those 'inhibitor guns' would have been awfully handy when Cadmus was trying to destroy the League.)
What the hell happened to the Guardians in the alternate universe? Didn't Sinestro try to do almost the exact same thing on his homeworld as John Stewart was participating in with the Justice Lords?
Remember it's a parallel universe and not a divergent one (they've always called themselves the Justice LORDS for example, something one can infer from Batman showing his teammates the viewer and going 'but they call themselves the Justice LEAGUE) therefor the personalities of the Guardians in that universe don't have to be identical to the one from the 'main' Earth. So Justice Lords GL might actually have Sinestro as the Role Model of GL behavior rather than a reviled traitor. One has more reason to consider the general acceptance by everyone else to Superman killing Luthor (of whom plenty of non-lethal methods were available, heck with the way Lex was taunting him wasting time Superman could have easily heat vision vaporized the control button and/or Lex's hand and arm to stop him), clearly everyone was darker and less heroic in that universe. Ironically enough you have Hawkgirl being the one showing concern for their methods and John, a black man who in theory shouldn't be behind such oppression instead supporting it wholeheartedly and missing the fact that people still live in terror only now it's of him and his teammates.
Divergent universes are a type of parallel universes, so making that distinction is the same as saying, "That's an animal, not a dog." That being said, the Justice Lords universe could very well be a divergent universe where the timeline diverges, with Luthor taking office, before the League was even formed. The evidence for this is that only Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were there during the attack on the White House.
Let's not forget Thanagar. Shayera's still their inside man and they'd still have to build that hyperspace bypass.
One thing that bugs me: this episode is before Justice League Unlimited. What happened to the other heroes? Where are Vixen, Black Canary, Red Tornado, and the others? Why aren't they trying to stop the Justice Lords? Were they killed for their defiance?
J'onn mentions that martians not only don't, but CAN'T read each other's minds, most likely put there as a Hand Wave as to why J'onn didn't read the alternate's mind, discover the Lords' plan, and the League thus refuse to go to the alternate dimension. However this makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. This is simply because martians would have had no reason to ever evolve the ability to read minds if they can't read each other's minds, and even if they did because of some evolutionary fluke, they'd have no reason to practice reading minds and thus maintain the ability to use it.
Almost none of any fictional species' abilities and traits make no sense under scrutiny of how they would have evolved. Its not really something a creator should have to worry about if they can tell a unique story and have creative powers.
There has to be some sort of binding logic behind everything in fiction or the suspension of disbelief would fail. There has to be a reason why the ability that a fictional species has exists, or ithe medium starts to devolve into nonsense.
Not really. And if you have a problem with J'onn's ability, then you certainly must think Superman's is nonsense, because his species evolved the ability to gain power from a type of radiation that doesn't even exist in their star system. And yet he's the classic, definitive superhero.
Actually I find Superman's abilities less crazy than J'onn's. It really doesn't make sense why Martians developed telepathy when it serves no practical use to them. Though perhaps in the distant past it served some use, perhaps it was too dangerous to speak. Kryptonians however just happen to react extremely well to different kind of radiation. It's entirely random making no less sense than any of the other dozens of heroes who gained super powers via radiation, toxic goo or DNA scrambled animals.
Perhaps the bit that Martians can't read other Martian's mind was not meant to be absolute: they may not do it with just any random martian, but only with martians with whom they have some special link... like, for example, husband and wife. It may even be a mating feature, available only between male and female (male and female martians, that is; humans and other non-martians are something else, easier to read). Remember the context as well. If he began to say something like "I can't read his mind because he's a male, and wouldn't do it even if I could because in our race the unwilling reading of minds is taboo", it would go too much off-topic, with the alternate universe Martian telling about the grave danger and what not. So, to tell Batman "Both" is akin to say "I will not read his mind, period, now get lost".
One possible explanation: Once the first glimmerings of telepathic ability developed, an evolutionary Lensman Arms Race started between ability to probe others' minds and ability to detect and/or resist probing. The end result would be Martians who could read other species' minds fairly easily (since they didn't develop such telepathic defenses), but have difficulties reading each other without consent (even setting aside cultural/ethical qualms about doing so). Even with those limitations, the power would still be useful within Martian civilization (for communicating with a consenting partner on a deeper level than speech), so it wouldn't become a useless vestige and die out.
It is the consideration of some that telepathic communication is a different thing from reading minds. This means that reading Justice Lord's J'onn without his knowledge and consent would be both something he can't and won't do, while normal speaking to each others' minds is a perfectly normal and acceptable thing. Considering the fact that Batman is trying to verify the story, it implies that he is asking J'onn to "invade" the other martian's mind. J'onn, being telepathic, knows what Batman means. Telepathy is still a practical, quick, and effective means of communication, but not of invading someones' privacy or similar things. It also implies that martians can't mindwipe other martians and so forth.
Explain functions of the power draining gun. I can understand it depowering Flash and Lantern. But Supes, Wondy, Hawkgirl (her flight) and Jones technically aren't superpowered. Their abilities are apart of their species' natural attributes
Superman's powers aren't natural. Kryptonians all seem to have the same reaction to being exposed to yellow sun radiation instead of developing random powers like seems to happen most of the time when comic book characters are exposed to radiation but that doesn't make it natural. Beyond that it doesn't make a terrible amount of sense unless the gun doesn't actually drain powers instead of "giving" them powers identical to a regular human being and overwriting their own individual physiology. It's also the best answer for why it works on five different characters who are in order mutated by a freak accident, powered by solar radiation, created by a literal goddess, and two breeds of aliens with natural abilities. No single fix should affect such a broad group of individuals.
From a Doylist perspective it's easy: the gun takes away any powers that "normal" people don't have in our reality. In-universe it's harder to justify; taking a detour through Wild Mass Guessing territory, the best explanation I could come up with would be that it actually slaps the target with a specialized but powerful mind control effect — hammering the "realization" that they've lost their powers after that hit straight into their subconscious. Which then of course everybody who actually knows how the gun works is very, very careful to not let accidentally slip since it means that the "power drain" is actually largely a bluff and any victim who realizes that might find a way to regain access to them by breaking through that enforced conditioning.
"The Savage Time"
Something that has bugged me about "The Savage Time" is this: All Earth, post-WWII, has been completely changed, so it makes sense that Batman is radically changed and the Flash doesn't exist. Perhaps Wonder Woman never left Themiscyra. But what about other heroes who span worlds? Perhaps J'onn was never revived by astronauts, so maybe the Imperium never invaded, but what about Hawkgirl, who would have been sent to Earth anyway (Earthly politics aside, the Gordanians would still be fighting the Thanagarians), Superman (since Krypton would still have been destroyed), and Green Lantern (it might not be Jon Stewart, but Earth would still fall under the Guardian's protection - they would have sent a Green Lantern of some sort in). Also, what about the villains? Grundy should still have existed in this timeline, as his origin took place before WWII, and Etrigan and Morgan Le Fay should still have been fighting it out. Brainiac should have still come to Earth in search of assimilating all knowledge and then destroying it, and Aquaman should have still been in his palace in Atlantis. Gorilla City should have been encountered in its hiding place in Africa, and Icthulthu should have tried to overrun the Earth with its monsters. Basically, I really like the episode "The Savage Time", but this has always bugged me.
Earth really wasn't too aware of the Green Lantern Corps until Hal Jordan became a "public" GL; in the DCAU/this timeline, it's possible GL simply never went public on Earth. With no League, Hawkgirl could simply never have become a superhero and just played the role of a spy. The last place Jor-El would want to send baby Kal is Savage's Earth, and the villains...well, they don't appear in every episode, so it could be as simple as "the ones who exist just failed to make an appearance in this episode."
Two more possibilities for Hawk Girl. 1. Since Savage (ha ha ha) Earth appears to have a higher standard tech level than Earth, it may of been possible the Thangarians called it off as soon as they learned Earth wouldn't be as easy pickings. By the present, [[Darksied]] had tried to take over Earth only was stopped by Superman. If the people of Earth could hold back a God, the Thangarians may never of made the plan to begin with. 2. Hawkgirl was found and... well... if you know what the Nazi's did to the Jews, just think what would of happened if they got there hands on an ALIEN.
Touché. That does make sense, and considering how powerful Savage's tech was (being able to give the League a run for their money in WWII, and undoubtedly advancing since then) it seems at least plausible that he could have fought off the various alien invasions.
Fridge Logic: Doesn't that actually make Savage's Earth a better place than the mainstream DCAU, at least in some ways? In the show-as-is the world basically has to rely on a handful of more or less well-adjusted supermen narrowly averting the regularly attacking supervillains and hostile alien empires; here, the government apparently has the resources to deal with the threats of the week themselves. And given the sci-fi technology, it's a pretty sure bet the general standard of living is also higher. Of course, a quasi-fascist government (even a bowdlerized one) probably isn't a very nice one to have, but still ...
Regarding the villians (or at least the ones from Earth), it's simply possible that they didn't show up because they weren't alive in this universe. The only reason they lived in the normal timeline was because the Justice League simply threw them back in jail every time. Considering how compassionate the Nazi system of justice was, it's likely that any criminal that caused any public disturbance would be killed on the spot (feasible since what's in this universe 60 year old technology could contend with the Justice League) and anyone associated or even close to them would be quickly and thoroughly vaporized.
A much simpler question: how in the flying blue hell did they get forward in time?
You meant back? For if we're to believe Planetary on that one, you can go back in time ONLY till the point of turning on the Time-machine. Which however doesn't explain how that guy managed to move through time at will with no problem =/
Another one from the same episode: if Savage thought the best way to dominate the world was rising to power during WWII, why did he choose the side that lost the war? I mean, a coup in the USSR seems just as feasible as one in Nazi Germany, and even without altering history they already controlles half of europe by the end of the war. And even if it had to be the Nazis, why did it have to be at the worst possible moment in the war? Is time travel so expensive that sending a laptop to 1940 was so harder than sending one to 1944?
Because he needed to be on a side that was trying for world domination, and that he could successfully take over. The leadership of the US and England at that time was more or less beyond reproach, so he couldn't have just had himself elected, while Hitler was the subject of several assassination and coup attempts. Also, even if he had gotten control of the US or England, he probably wasn't going to be able to convince either country to go ahead with the world domination thing. As to it popping out in 1944, maybe that's as far back as Savage could go with the time machine at that point.
Again, why not the USSR? They won the war too, after all. And it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a coup against Stalin succeeding right after the first German victories.
One, the Nazi ideology is much more in line with Savage's inclinations than the Communist. Two, Stalin was more paranoid than Hitler, and less easy to manipulate.
Three, Savage knows the USSR was destined to eventually collapse due to the inherent economic fallacies of Marxist Communism. Taking over the USSR would mean dramatically reforming their economic model to prevent that from happening, and presumably Savage wasn't interested in that.
Also, Savage needed to pick the side that was losing the war so they'd accept the help from "the man from the future" and not just laugh/lock him in an asylum.
The USSR was not destroyed by "the inherent economic fallacies of Marxist Communism" had it been that the USSR would have collapsed long before when it did, it was brought down through a mixture of political upheaval in the eastern bloc not helped by Gorbachev's botched reforms to allow more open political expression and economic turmoil caused by their massive investment of manpower and resources into arming themselves and their invasion of Afghanistan going tits up and costing massive amounts of money. All of these seem like things Savage could have prevented since they where mostly caused by poor leadership.
Yes, poor leadership caused by the inherent fallacies of Marxist Communism. The political upheavals in the eastern bloc were caused in large part by extremely poor economic conditions resulting from the application of Marxist Communism, and their invasion of Afghanistan plus the nuclear arms race made things even worse. Savage could have taken over the USSR, but turning it into the world-dominating superpower he wanted it to be would have required a massive overhaul of their entire economic and political system. Nazism was much more suited to Savage's goal of world domination since it placed much stronger emphasis on the citizen's devotion to the State.
My guess is that Savage was on the side of the Nazi's already, most likely control over the Nazi's technology development, but wasn't in the position to take over power (he is immortal, and he may of been smart, but he just didn't have the tech to work with). That was, until his future self sent him the laptop containing all the tech, all the future knowledge of invasions/military movements, and where the enemy would be the weakest), that is the bargaining chip he needed to take power.
The mainstream Savage was a founding member of the Nazi Party, he picked their side because he openly supported it.
Another question from that episode: Savage's time machine can't take you back to a time when you already existed. Martian Manhunter is almost a thousand years old, according to Secret Origins. How did he go back in time with the others?
And Diana! Even if her origin has her in Themyscira until the 90's or whenever, she was still around back then.
Perhaps they meant that you can't travel to a place where you were at that point in the past. For example, he couldn't have traveled back in time to Mars but since he wasn't on earth during WWII it wouldn't cause problems.
Maybe I missed it but when was that rule actually stated in the episode?
It was stated in "Hereafter Pt. 2" with the future Savage explaining why he can't go back in time with Superman. Since the machine was built After the End, it might not have been as advanced as the one he used in "Savage Time".
What kind of escape vehicle is a subway train? All they should have to do it follow the tracks to find Bat's hideout.
Subway tracks do merge in places. Bats would only have to go through a few forks in the road and have his own hidden private track to make that escape work.
I don't know how this hasn't been mentioned yet: All that future technology. Germany still has factories producing the stuff, and while the ending handwaved an explanation for why they'd still lose the war in spite of it, history has been irrevocably changed in a major way. The Americans and Soviets aren't going to turn a blind eye to all that advanced technology...we certainly didn't in 1945. (think Oppenheimer and the space race) You would think the 1950s and early 1960s would be around the time they caught up with the early 2000s, and the early 2000s would have flying cars and other technology from Batman Beyond. Don't tell me that our heroes destroyed all the factories producing that stuff either. There would be notebooks, recordings, the minds of scientists all capable of rebuilding what they destroyed after they're gone.
That was explained in JLU, the Blackhawks helped clean up all the "weird sci-fi type weapons" and stashed all of it on an island.
Where did Savage get all the resources to built war machines? Even if he had the specifications - building all of that should require large investments and that's not taking into account training of engineers and similar things.
Dude's been around for 10,000 years. He's been a conqueror and general high-roller in society since such things existed. He's got plenty of cash, and don't underestimate the wonders of compound interest.
Cadmus: Department of Endangerment and Torture
Why was so much of Cadmus' efforts centred around creating more metahumans to counter the Justice League? Why create more superpowered beings that you might not be able to control? What if, say, Galatea went rogue? And we all know what happened with Doomsday. Surely it should have concentrated on upgrading conventional weaponry to give normal human militaries and police forces an edge against metahuman threats? Granted, there were some things like the Kryptonite-tipped nuclear missile that had the capability to kill both Superman and Doomsday, it didn't seem enough compared to the disproportionate resources allocated to creating more metahumans. It's all the more galling given how damn near everything is Immune to Bullets.
It's a matter of effectiveness. Take Kryptonite bullets. This would down heavy-hitters like Superman and Supergirl (and they did make them in small quantities), but not other heavy-hitters like the Martian Manhunter. They'd have to make weapons for each and every hero, or something universally effective. Other metahumans in their employ is good for that purpose. Lex's insta-depowered ray would also be good, but too easy from a story-telling point of view.
IncindenaryKryptonite bullets in yellowed painted shells there I just came up with a weapon good for taking out three League Members. As for the others it's just a matter of figuring out how to hit them with normal bullets.
Assuming you mean, in order, the Manhunter, Superman, and the Green Lantern, that would work in the comics. In this show, Jonn is never explicitly shown to have any sort of fire phobia, nor are the Green Lanterns explicitly shown to be weak against yellow. While yellow things have gotten past their barriers on a few occasions, Sinestro's yellow attacks are never shown to be immune. Thus, three just became one again. Back to the point, assuming all three worked, you made a triple-effective weapon when you're facing an organization which, in a rough estimate, has a good fifty super-heroes of various flavors in its ranks. It's nearly impossible to have meta-human kill teams roaming around with a feasible way of killing any metahuman imaginable.
In fact, this Manhunter has specifically been shown to not be weak to fire. In The Savage Time, he removed a jet's engine while the afterburner was blasting him in the face.
Out-of-Universe it's because it's just plain cooler to build meta humans who then become characters in their own right. In-Universe it's damn hard to bring enough dakka to the fight to effect the higher ups in the Justice League but Lex has proven that they do make lasers in the "hurt Superman Size". Lex's power suit has been shown to be roughly on par with Superman. Steel isn't too far off that mark either so creating something that can fight the Justice League, have an army trained to use and could be handed to the next guy in a pinch is clearly not impossible. That all presupposes that building something roughly on par with Amazo is impossible not really difficult.
Judging from that metahuman team that Cadmus made sure were known publically as heroes, the idea wasn't just to eliminate the Justice League, it was to eliminate and replace. A natural concern of getting rid of superheroes is that all the stuff they're fighting against will run wild with nothing to stop them, so Cadmus was attempting to provide controllable alternatives to keeping around a group of vigilantes. Sending their metahumans after the Justice League would've been a way to prove their superiority and/or highlight design flaws to be eliminated in the next generation model.
The whole idea of an "arms race" is two sides struggling to meet or exceed the other side's weapons capacity. Cadmus was only a few years old in this continuity. First you've got to study metahumans, then you've got to build and test prototypes of your weapons. Cadmus just wasn't far enough along to start mass-producing "anti-meta" field weapons. They were still too busy cloning test subjects FOR those weapons. Galatea and the Ulitmen were just promising early breakthroughs.
In Flashpoint, just after Question Authority, Superman and J'onn have this argument about whether they can now bring down Cadmus, but they can't because they have no solid evidence. What? Cadmus held Question without due process, they tortured him, and the Justice League is not going to say anything? If nothing else, they could take the story to the media, and the public's outrage at a secret branch of the government torturing a US citizen would be more than enough to bring down Cadmus.
Yeah, the same way that, in real life, all those high-ranking U.S. military and CIA officials were taken down after it became public that they were indefinitely detaining and torturing people without trial in connection the War on Terror. Oh, wait... and the JL had a LOT less evidence to prove that the Question was tortured, mostly just eyewitness accounts that boiled down to the JL's word vs. Cadmus'.
But that might not work once Cadmus let out evidence that The Question is, basically, a really good spy, and they are goverment-based (correct me if I'm wrong) so they would, legally, be able to deal with him. Torture him? Probably not, considering this 'verse isn't a Crapsack one, but how many people are going to worry about a guy who's in the Justice League, who are alternatively hated with a mob-like passion and (some of them) shown to come back from the dead? Either they'll say 'oh, they were just doing their job' or 'he's fine, he's one of those powered folks, couldn't have hurt one of them too much'.
Also, any legal proceedings would likely require the use of Question's real name. Which I don't think he would be forthcoming with.
They may know all these things, but how many of them can they prove in a court of law?
Did anybody at Cadmus ever start to consider that they could become more a menace than the Justice League? Hell, considering that they already violate more laws than they enforced (and nearly nuked a populated area), even though they're supposed to protect the world from the Justice League in case it goes rogue, it seem more like the world needs protection from Cadmus. It's particularly jarring we don't see anything stopping them from doing the things they feared the Justice League doing.
They are more of a menace than the Justice League. That's the whole point. They never considered it because they're a giant pile of hypocrites.
After the end Amanda Waller had clearly figured it out. Paraphrased she says the League weren't the devils they were painted as and Cadmus weren't the angels they pretended to be.
In "A Better World," Doomsday states that his skin can withstand a nuclear explosion. Yet in "The Doomsday Sanction," General Eiling attempts to kill him with a nuclear missile. The missile did have a kryptonite warhead, and since Doomsday is an altered clone of Superman, he could be vulnerable to it... but in that case, why didn't Cadmus use kryptonite to kill Doomsday in the first place, instead of attempting to send him into space? Why wasn't kryptonite being used to contain him when he was captive?
There are many contradictions between Doomsday as he appears in "A Better World" and his origin as described in "The Doomsday Sanction." It's pretty clear to me that they did a re-write to bring him into the Cadmus arc, so it I just chalk that and the other errors up to trying to force two disparate concepts into a single story.
They obviously changed their minds about what they wanted to do with Doomsday between the two episodes, but the nuclear weapon thing sticks out to me because it's an explicit contradiction, instead of just fudging something that was only implied (like the fact that Doomday was probably supposed to be an alien in the original and didn't have any beef with Superman in particular). And Doomsday's toughness is probably not something that they would want to retcon. But even going off of "The Doomsday Sanction" alone... if it takes a missile with a kryptonite-lined warhead to kill Superman, and Doomsday is both tougher than Superman and immune to kryptonite, it seems like Doomsday should have been fine.
On balance, General Eiling never struck me as the sort of man who cared if a countermeasure would work properly so long as it was the one he new about. Hence his fixation on the Justice League having a space cannon, using a kryptonite nuke that probably wouldn't work, and ultimately injecting himself with a sixty year old unstable Nazi mutagen before trying to pick a fight with Superman.
What was Cadmus thinking when they created Doomsday?! I know it was supposed to be a fail safe in case Superman went rogue, but the way they did it makes it seem less like a reasonable countermeasure and more like an an utterly self-inflicted Godzilla Threshold. At no point was it shown they could control Doomsday well enough that they could release it and expect it to take down its intended target without causing collateral damage and massive casualties. At least Ace was a bit more tractable before going rogue, especially when she had her power dampener on, but Doomsday's conditioned desire to eliminate Superman is so great that it will do anything to take the Superhero down, consequences be damned. The only other person with a hatred as deep and obsessive as Doomsday is Lex Luthor. However, while Luther prefers bringing Superman down through manipulation, cunning, and sublety, Doomsday does it with his fists. Yet even then Doomsday isn't just a mindlessly destructive killing machine. He has shown plenty of instances of intelligence and awareness of his situation. If at some point he figures that killing off Superman isn't enough to absolve his rage, he will go out and make sure Superman suffers in absolute anguish by killing off those close to him, including the people he has sworn himself to protect, Metropolis itself!
No shit it didn't work. That's why Cadmus first launched it into space, and then had it locked up and unable to move. The end product of Doomsday wasn't what was originally planned. They tried to make a countermeasure to Superman, it didn't work, and they tried to get rid of it. When that didn't work, they locked it up. Don't confuse the failure of an end-product with the original intent.
Note that their second attempt, Galatea, worked exactly as programmed. They were improving; that's worrying.
Its worth noting that a rampaging Doomsday would likely be easier to deal with than a rampaging Superman. Justice Lord Superman downs Doomsday with a OHKO (that he evolved to be immune to later) but between the Justice Lords, Crime Syndicate and Injustice for all just to name a few seem to suggest that the only way you get rid of an evil Superman is to go to the universe next door and borrow theirs. With that in mind I can easily justify keeping Doomsday around unless he's in 'exterminate all life' mode he's essentially the Incredible Hulk or Godzilla. A huge problem yeah but nothing on the scale of Superman who's conquered the Universe at least once.
I'm gonna have to disagree on that assessment. Doomsday proved in both conflicts to be quite a bit stronger than Superman himself. In fact, if Lord!Supes hadn't lobotomized him, he could have taken down the entire Justice Lords. The only thing that could make him potentially less dangerous than Supes is that he can't fly or run as fast, but that just bides them time. That being said, i think the creation of Doomsday is justified by Cadmus just being Cadmus.
I was less than clear with my Assessment. Doomsday in terms of sheer power is more powerful than Superman. He simply seems to lack the sort of drive and focus that Superman possesses. Doomsday tends to be a force of nature, incredible power but (if you're not Superman) no more malice than a hurricane. Superman every single time he's gone dark he's become a dictator imposing his will on the people of the Earth or in the case of Injustice for All the universe. The question of whether you'd rather have a Super Dictator or a randomly rampaging Person of Mass Destruction is of course a matter of opinion. But often times the question of living under Dark Superman is the question between freedom and security.
In "Flashpoint," Captain Atom's Just Following Orders makes no sense in light of the fact that his "legal and proper" orders are to prevent the rescue of a torture victim that was being held without due process. Atom's military oaths require him to refuse to obey such blatantly illegal orders. There shouldn't be any conflicting duties for him in this situation. The legal and moral thing for him to do would have been to simply stand down and let them leave.
Similarly, Superman not even trying to debate Captain Atom on the legality or morality of his orders, even though Captain Atom clearly wanted to resolve the situation without violence.
This was an attempt by the writers (a poor one but the entire arc is handled poorly on this front) to show the legitimacy of the government. Captain Atom is a member of the United States Military and was given an order, one that he apparently agreed with. In REAL LIFE it was effectively argued with GITMO that it's not illegal if the President orders it. It's easy to forget that the Justice League has an orbital Death Cannon, the Justice Lords provide proof that the only thing stopping the Justice League from world domination is their own good will. The government, the military in particular has an obligation to do anything and everything in their power to have an answer to the Justice League should they go rogue. At this point in the story Superman was effectively a hostile government breaking into a secret facility and taking away a political prisoner. Try the argument again only replace Justice League and The Question with Taliban and Al Zawari and see if you have the same objections.
If we're going to be arguing it like that, let's make it as close as possible. Replace the League and The Question with "peaceful group with power" and "member of said group" and see how the argument plays out. You can't just say "because they MIGHT be a threat if we murder one of them in cold blood" and expect it all to work out fine. Which is what caused the Justice Lords. Comparing the League to the Taliban because they wouldn't take one of their own being murdered and snapped in response in an alternate universe is just...completely and utterly inaccurate.
By this point in the story Lex Luthor had fired the Justice League's orbital death cannon on a city and we can only imagine how many casualties were caused by that. This was AFTER the government had found out about it and complained that they didn't like the Justice League having a death cannon pointed at the earth. What caused the Justice Lords is irrelevant, but fact that the Justice Lords (Minus one member) took over the world and imposed their own will on the planet. They were a legit threat that the government had absolutely no answer to. You could compare them to any foreign power you want and the scenario would be the same. In all fairness comparing the League snapping over the death of the Flash, which as far as we can tell along with President Luthor are the only differences between the main line and the Justice Lords, to the Taliban is being extremely generous. I think it's more than safe to say they over-reacted A LOT. And again the government has an obligation to protect its citizens. What they did to the Question was wrong, as was stated earlier the arc was (and is always) handled poorly. Because in super hero stories the moral is always the government is corrupt, trust the super heroes whom you have no way of controlling.
Cadmus started out with that intention, which is as you say a valid point. They rapidly Jumped Off The Slippery Slope. Very rapidly. Galatea was killing innocent American citizens (and at least one retired soldier) to keep her presence secret. Lord was authorizing the creation of superhuman clones knowing that they would inevitably become unstable. Eiling could hardly wait to test his kryptonite-coated hydrogen bomb. The government isn't "always corrupt" in the superhero genre, and it seems odd to say that you need a "way to control" superheroes. Super-prison seems to work well enough for the Parasite, Grodd and so many others...
This is just a little thing, but... Does anyone actually know how old Wally West's Flash is in this?
This troper always assumed he was at least twenty years old, as that would explain why he was so childish compared to the other League members and why he's also less disillusioned with being a superhero.
He can't possibly be twenty. He's at least twenty-five. He's a forensic scientist for the police department. That takes a degree and stuff, and he's shown to be really good at his job, so he probably has some experience. And anyway, since when is 'twenty-five' a reason to be any more mature than he acts? Twenty-five is really young.
Or he's at least twenty-five by JLU when he's shown to have a job as a forensic scientist at the police department. Before that could've been a college graduate, in grad school or still looking for a good job. We don't know how much time passed between JL and JLU but it would be reasonable to say he started off in his early twenties and was in his mid-twenties by the end of the series. Then again it's just as reasonable to assume he was in his mid-twenties in the beginning. Honestly the only thing we can say for sure is he's the youngest member of the team and under thirty.
Considering how Wally experiences life at an accelerated pace it wouldn't shock me in the least to find out that he was one of those kids who was graduating from college at sixteen because he tested out of every age. And that's ignoring that fictional characters always manage to advance in life very quickly compared to what's possible/likely in real life.
Hawkgirl does her research
Okay, so at the end of "Divided We Fall", when Shayera is pulling The Flash out of the Speed Force, how does she know his name? Yes, the JL admitted who they were at the end of "Starcrossed", but Shayera wasn't there, so... How does she know that the Flash is "Wally"?
She knew who Batman was without him ever reveaing it to her, you think Flash would have been hard to figure out? Basically heroes have secret identities from each other because they just don't bother looking into each other.
Besides, she's been back on the team for fourteen episodes by then, and the show made a point of how well they got along. Who's to say he didn't just tell her?
At the end of part three of "Starcrossed," Shayera is having tea in Wayne Manor. Clearly, the secret identities thing was already dealt with.
As is mentioned above, she found out Batman's identity without him knowing. Batman! She outplayedBatman. She was a spy specifically sent in to find and undermine the heroes. Finding out their identities would've been a natural part of that.
Also, her once and future man (GL) just so happens to be one of the Flash's best friends.
Plot threads left hanging
Something that really bugs me about the series as a whole is how many plot threads were Left Hanging at the end: The fate of the Justice Lords, of Galatea, of the original Ultimen, of the hulked-out General Eiling. The nature of J'onn's relationship with that woman. The Green Lantern/Vixen/Hawkman/Hawkgirl Love Dodecahedron. It's really irritating. I want to know what happened next!
The Justice Lords were depowered and imprisoned. Galatea was killed. The original Ultimen degenerated and died. All three of those were either explicitly said or heavily implied. I'll give you Eiling, though; I sorta wanted to see him show up in the finale.
I was wondering more about why Captain Marvel didn't show up at the finale to notice...
None of those are ever actually shown, though. And Galatea is still twitching at the end, and it seems like it would take more than a jolt of electricity to kill a Kryptonian.
The Justice Lords are shown being depowered by Luthor's device, and the last you see is them being led away in handcuffs; Galatea wasn't hit with 'a jolt of electricity' so much as she had all of the Watchtower's power jammed into her chest. Massive amounts of electricity have been shown to harm even Superman in the past; also, dead bodies twitch sometimes. As for the Ultimen, what did you want them to do, show them melting into puddles? Their episode was over, and we were told explicitly they didn't have long. Sure, there's the whole Show, Don't Tell thing, but you really don't need to be explicitly shown every little detail.
They forgot about Amazo! (Everyone forgot about Amazo)
Well, the producers did consider putting in a brief shot of him in "Destroyer" sitting on an asteroid wondering if it's safe to return. They just didn't get a chance to.
Actually, it's not that they didn't get a chance to, it's that, uh, they forgot too.
Yeah, the fate of Eiling bugs me too, as does whatever happened to Circe. When you think about it, neither of them actually got beaten; they just chose to stop winning. Two massively powerful villains, each with a grudge against one of the big seven, and they're never heard from after their first appearances?
Eiling was forced to face that he had become the very threat he was fighting against and would be viewed that way by the public at large. On a basic level he did genuinely wish to help the people and if the whole public was arrayed against him than there wasn't a point. He had a Villainous BSOD only without the angst.
It is possible that Eiling was fighting "off screen". Hell, as far as Cadmus people go I imagine Amanda Waller and that Colonel who lead Task Force X woulda been out there shooting too. But they only had 22 minutes, so even with their efforts, we didn't see EVERYONE who would likely be fighting. I mean we didn't acually SEE all the League members fighting. Gypsy, Sandman, Crimson Avenger, the mentioned as being in the League but never once shown on screen Plastic Man...we didn't see them doing anything either, so I assume they were just fighting offscreen as well. Or Aquaman and his Atlantean army for that matter, unless I missed it. I mean, I imagine the military and police(and armed citizens) of all nations would be out fighting in that kinda situation, and we didn't really see that either. Sure, woulda been cool if they coulda shown Eiling(and any other villains who were established in universe that weren't on Luthor's spaceship when it went into space, Deadshot or Captain Boomerang for example) in the fight as well but their time was limited.
"Only A Dream"
Why was Wonder Woman the only one not present? I know that, in the majority of the episodes, one or two members of the league are missing from action, but Dr. Destiny held a grudge against all of the League members because he was captured by them when they were investigating one of Luthor's schemes and was arrested for harboring weapons. He even stated to Batman that he had a problem with the others because their powers gave them such a huge advantage over those without them and that they ruin the lives of normal people without realizing it, so you'd think he'd definitely target her as well. Hell, when Batman was attempting to contact the others at the end of the first part, he made no attempt to contact Wonder Woman... So... Was she just not there when Dr. Destiny got caught and therefore he didn't think of her or what? Did he simply forget about her? Was she protected by the gods? I'm not all to familiar with Wonder Woman's story outside the JL/JLU, so, correct me if I'm wrong, but she has no reason to leave Earth or enter a different dimension, does she?
Maybe he tried to attack her but failed becaue she has no primal fear like the rest of them. Or maybe she was immune to his power because it was a lie and she had latent truth powers?
Or maybe, since her lasso/braclets/etc give her her powers, and this has been shown in-verse, he just didn't think to grab her, because she's relatively non-powered with her stuff?
Yes, WW can fly and possesses super strength at a level just a bit below Superman, lasso and bracelets or not.
Her endurance (in this continuity) is nowhere near his though. I do remember an early episode of JLU where Superman is trapped in the Fortress of Solitude in a catatonic state thanks to some kind of parasitic plant sent by Mongul. His only hope to defend him from the advancing Mongul were Batman and Wonder Woman - and she gets possibly one of her worst beatings of the series; she couldn't even stand up under her own strength. Superman, once freed by Batman, had a ridiculously better fight than she did.
Batman's completely non-powered without his stuff, and Destiny went after him. Maybe it's just that her magical nature granted her resistance to the technologically-granted dream-invasion powers. Or Amazon training includes psychic defense techniques.
On multiple occasions Superman and GL were literally in another solar system. Maybe Wonder Woman was just "out of range" and Supes already knew about it.
Another thing that bugs me about "Only A Dream" is that Dr. Destiny was able to locate the league members rather easily while J'onn experienced some serious problems in the two part episode just before. Did Dr. Destiny just develop much better psychic abilities than J'onn?
Wasn't that the point? Dr. Destiny explicitly said "You're good...but I'm better!"
Think of it more as Physic Rock, Paper, Scissors. Destiny trumps J'onn, who trumps everyone else.
That is true, but while does seem that Dr. Destiny is more powerful than J'onn, the fact is that J'onn is a lot more experienced. Someone like Morgan Le Fey trumping him is fair enough, as she not only has vast magical abilities, but centuries of experience (and even then, he was able to overcome it), but some rube who's just got his hands on his powers? Unlikely!
Destiny's powers are not the same as J'onn's. J'onn has traditional telepathy. Destiny's specific power is to invade people's dreams while they sleep. So really it's impossible to say which of the two is the more powerful psychic because their powers are fundamentally different.
Also recall that Destiny wasn't trying to find out where they were, physically. He didn't need to. Furthermore, remember that the ESP machine gave him some degree of remote perception or something the first time on-screen that he was under it. It's not implausible that he had that ability as well.
Green Lantern outright questions why anyone would have an ESP-granting machine in a prison and the warden's only reply is 'where else would you get volunteers?' Did he ever consider anywhere else on Earth? There are still ESP experiments being performed today in real life long after mainstream science has given up on the idea, these people live in a world where telepaths are real and publicly known. The doctor could have set up shop anywhere and he probably would have had at least a dozen volunteers in a week. That's not even getting into how stupid it is to give a criminal psychic powers. Even if the powers are supposed to be temporary and even if the prisoner is a model of rehabilitation you generally don't want to give someone ideas about reading minds while surrounded by other criminals. Seems like they would just be surrounded by bad influences.
The ESP experiments that are performed today are, "See if people actually have it." The machine in the prison was, "Mess around with your brain and try and give you ESP." People tend to get a little touchy about things that rearrange their brains.
If that was the stumbling point then why would the inmates agree to be part of the experiment? There's no mention of them being paid or the time spent in the program helping them at parole hearings. Just because they're in prison doesn't mean they're going to randomly sign up for an experiment that no one outside would consider. Heck, they could have just done it under military or intelligence auspices.
The comment 2 above has it, the ESP machine is a potentially dangerous technology that could possibly scramble a person's brain, no sane person would take the risk. The prisoners on the other hand have little to lose and I wouldn't doubt they're given incentives to participate.
Well, assuming that first response was correct they have nothing to lose except their minds and possibly lives. Also we are never told of anything that would an incentive, nor (assuming that these tests might be harmful to the human body) what ethics board would permit them. You can't just assume something exists.
Upwards of 70% of prisoners in real-world jails have nothing to do all day except three plates of food and an hour or two of work-out time. Things like books to read and paper for letter-writing are privileges that can be lost for bad behavior. Compared to that, prisoners participating in "ESP Research" would get probably get private cells, better food, something to fill the time, and a slim chance at superpowers. Many would do it just to relieve the boredom.
"In Blackest Night"
The whole, "if a lawyer will lose the case, he will share his client's fate” thing. Why? Why somebody has to suffer or be killed for trying to make sure that innocent person will not be punished for somebody's else crime? I just don't get it, I don't see any reason for this law to exist.
I think it was a dark joke about how lawyers are viewed as corrupt and willing to represent anyone for the right price. It's been awhile since I've seen it but don't the judges say they fixed their lawyer problem? Getting killed with your client would prevent most lawyers from trying to profit since the risk would be so high.
I guess the logic is that no one would ever choose to defend a guilty person because they wouldn't want to risk sharing their client's fate. Ideally this means that guilty people are more likely to get convicted because they won't have a lawyer to help them exploit legal loopholes and technicalities. To the judges' minds this equals a fair justice system. To anyone else, not so much. In real-life this would mean that anyone who wasn't able to get legal representation would be instantly perceived as guilty and anyone who could get representation would be instantly perceived as innocent. You could be innocent as a newborn babe but get shafted because you couldn't afford a lawyer, or be guilty as sin and get off scott free because you were blind stinking rich and you offered enough money to tempt even the most craven attorney into defending you.
It wasn't just a joke on the cynicism of lawyers in general but also lawyers who represent clients charged with high-profile crimes like terrorism or mass-murder: the idea being that most defendants charged with such crimes are guilty, therefore any attorney who takes their case must be especially amoral and rely on underhanded tactics and dirty tricks to get their client off.
"In Blackest Night" had a much, much bigger problem than Adjuris 5's legal system. The villains trick everyone into thinking that Green Lantern accidentally destroyed Adjuris 4 by projecting a holographic illusion of a rubble field over the planet's location. We are told that three billion sentient beings were on Adjuris 4 when it was "destroyed." Did no one think to search for survivors? Did no one try to call one of these three billion sentient beings on the radio, to see if they survived? Did none of the these three billion sentient beings try to call anybody on Adjuris 5 to ask "Hey, what's this big hologram doing in our sky?" Even if the inhabitants of Adjuris 4 were blissfully unaware of the ruse being perpetrated upon them, did none of them have friends or family or business associates on Adjuris 5 that they called on a regular basis, or have an off-planet vacation trip scheduled?
Another problem is the fact that the first two people who noticed that there is something wrong with the whole scenario due to the fact that the moon of Adjuris 4 continued to revolve in its current orbit is Superman and Martian Manhunter. While it does made both of them look smart it raises an important question. Are there no physicist in space or did the people have no concept of gravity despite being a space-faring civilization that no one noticed anything wrong with that prior to the Justice League investigating it?
A real problem was the Green Lanterns, John included. First they act as though he's Sinestro due to an accident that occurs during his duties. Then they, with the exception of Kilowog, bad mouth him for doing his job! And here's where John comes in, when he's found innocent he's angry with them for not supporting him when he himself thought he was guilty! Not a lot loyalty in the ranks.
I think the idea there was that John realized how much the League went through to prove that he was innocent; it kind of woke him up and helped him see who his real friends were and who didn't have his back. So accordingly, he was angry with the Green Lanterns for abandoning him; whereas even while he was down on himself, the League never stopped trusting in him.
That doesn't seem like a great condemnation of the Green Lanterns. Admittedly their investigation was so pathetic that in the U.S. a lawyer could probably rip the case apart based purely on that, but any law enforcement agency should not be operating under an assumption that a member couldn't have committed a crime. That attitude encourages them to see anyone making accusations as the enemy.
Here's another one. Planets exist several light-minutes apart. Even a signal between the Earth and the Moon takes a few seconds. There's no time-lag when Hawkgirl smashes the illusion generator. Though it would have been funny watching the bailiffs trying to 'remove' Superman and J'onn during that time lag.
Okay, we all remember Superman's World Of Card Board Speech, and yes it was awesome. But there, he claims to be going all out against Darkseid for the first time. Then why didn't he mop the floor with Darkseid in "Twilight"? It was obvious he was going to kill Darkseid if Batman hadn't interfered, so why didn't he use his true power there?
Because he didn't think he needed it. Darkseid in the final episode was, as he mentioned, more powerful than he had been before, and previous to Twilight, Superman had already beaten him in a one-on-one fight (See his own series finale), so it stands to reason Supes would've believed he could still beat him at 'normal' in Twilight. So the progression goes: Legacy [Superman fighting at normal to beat Darkseid]—> Twilight [Superman fighting at normal, perhaps a bit above, to kill Darkseid]—> Destroyer [Superman going all out]
Actually, the yellow sunlight thing makes sense. In the episode with Dr. Destiny, in his nightmare Superman remarks about how he started out with no power and how he keeps getting more and more. This would seem to imply that the longer he stays under a yellow sun the more powerful he becomes. So there could indeed be a significant power differential in Superman's levels between the two fights.
The fact that Superman gets more and more powerful is indeed pretty much confirmed in-universe : for instance, in the first STAS episode, he struggles really hard to catch a falling plane, letting it cause much destruction before stopping it ; by contrast, in the JLU episode where he fights Captain Marvel, he catches a (bigger-looking) falling plane without breaking a sweat, even having no problem chatting with the Martian Manhunter at the same time.
There's also something to be said for Superman's fighting style (or lack thereof). In basically every fight Superman starts out holding back and only uses "real" force only after taking a serious beating. After two rounds with Darksied already, Superman just decided to come out of the gate swinging rather than wait until he's bloody and disoriented. Hence the awesome speech.
Thing is he let himself get pounded up to that point even though he already knew he'd need all his strength. The idea supes holds back explains most of his smack downs but not all. The battle against Doomsday for example.
There's a huge war against the forces of Darkseid. Where are Mr. Miracle, Big Barda, and Orion? They've appeared previously on JLU, why not here?
I would assume they were off-planet at the time and didn't know about Darkseid's invasion of Earth. The battle seemed to take place over a short enough time that the New Gods may not have found out about it until it was already over.
Orion is present, much to the chagrin of the producers. At the end of Alive, when Luthor arrives and mentions that they have a problem Orion is standing right behind Superman in plain view...and then he disappears from the exact same shot and scene inDestroyer. DVD commentary clears it up: The writers knew that if Orion had been present it would have had to come down to a fight between him and Darkseid. Their conflict has been one of the driving forces of the New Gods story going back to S:TAS, if he had been here there would have been no excuse to not have him be at least the warm-up fight, and the writers didn't want that. Their goal was for this episode, and particular those scenes, to be about the primary League members and, especially, Superman vs Darkseid. They made this realization after making Alive (Where Orion appeared) so they just had him vanish from the scene in Destroyer. As for the absence of Big Barda and Mr. Miracle, technically they were never in the League at all. Flimsy, I know, especially since we got a scene of Hawkman and he was also never in the League, but for that I don't know of any Word of God.
Point of fact, Hawkman may not have been a full member, but he was an auxilliary member, as mentioned in one of his spotlight episodes.
Actually, no he wasn't. He was an independent hero who sometimes crossed paths with the League. This was made fairly clear in the second episode he appears in, he shows up pursuing Gentleman Ghost who Lantern was also pursuing(and fighting him alone, initially), then aids Lantern(who was not expecting his aid), then departs separately once the fight is over while telling GL to "Tell Shayera I said hello". GL then complains to Shayera on the Watchtower that "I ran into your boyfriend again". Then if you notice in Destroyer, every JL member who was shown on earth is shown suiting up, then being teleported to the battle sites, including flyers like Fire, Stargirl and Stripe. Yet when it shows Hawkman, it shows him ing up then flying off under his own power(with no battle visible outside the window he left from), and never being picked up via teleporter. I assume he was shown either because one of the creative team was a Hawkman fan and wanted to get him into the episode, or because it was a deliberate effort on their part to show that even NON-League heroes(Hawkman and Huntress being 2 we see in universe) were fighting as well.
When Darkseid was holding Superman by the neck during their battle, they were looking each other in the eyes. Why didn't Superman just use his heat visionto melt out Darkseid's eyes? I'd love to see the Tiger-Force of the universe try to vaporize anyone when he can't even see.
Aside from being far too gory, even pissed off "will absolutely murder you" Superman is a far cry from the unhinged Lord Superman. Mongul, who Superman was willing to attack in such a fashion, got a burn somewhere it wouldn't be immediately fatal. Darkseid is a step up on the list, but Superman is still going to wince about frying the dude's eyeballs.
Real Superman tried it against Doomsday in 'The Doomsday Sanction'. So clearly he's not entirely above it. Though Doomsday was beating him like a ragdoll while Doomsday was still mostly gloating and Superman clearly had far more left in the tank here. But Darkseid is ultimately a much bigger threat to the world and universe than Doomsday. Darkseid has armies and will conquer worlds (plural) and will actively hunt and enslave people. Doomsday has no way to leave Earth and doesn't seem smart or patient enough to force someone to build him a ship. His only purpose is to kill Superman so even if he went on killing after finishing off Superman instead of wandering out into the desert with no purpose at all he's still more like a hurricane that may strike your town at any time and kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people than Darksied who is deliberately malicious.
A better question would be why Darkseid didn't do it to Superman. Superman may not cruel enough, but Darkseid sure as hell is.
Right before Superman's infamous World of Cardboard Speech, Batman tackles Darkseid from behind... and Darkseid is knocked slightly off balance. Why? If Darksied is so strong that it takes Superman going all out to stop him, shouldn't Batman have just bounced off Darksied's back?
Because weight and inertia are still things. Darkseid is strong, but we don't know what his actual mass is. If Batman can catch Superman off-guard and judo toss him across the room, then Darkseid can be knocked slightly off balance when something he wasn't expecting leaps onto his back.
In the episode "Ultimatium", where the Justice League meets the Captain ErsatzSuper Friends, Aquaman gets a Crowning Moment of Awesome when the "Wonder Twin" Downpour hits him with a few thousand gallons of water at full force. Aquaman shrugs and says: "King of the Seas, remember?". So how does Aquaman get the "super-sticky feet" power required to get hit with that much water and remain standing? I understand that he can understand a lot of water pressure on his body, but this was a force lateral to his center of gravity. If I were to smack Queen Elizabeth II with a lintel piece from Stonehenge, would she shrug it off saying: "Queen of England, remember?"? Or is it just Rule of Cool?
Aquaman has aquakinesis powers. He probably diverted the vast majority of the water pressure around himself.
His body is designed to be strong enough to swim against high-pressure tides and such, so a burst of water from an aquakinetic can't phase him any more than the crashing waves of the sea.
Except a mere 5 minutes before a blast of water from Downpour sent him flying. Maybe it's an injoke to some of the ridiculousness of Superfriends.
Because he thrust his chest out at it. Ie, he's prepared for it.
The idea that Batman is a matter of being In the Blood goes against the very core of Batman's mythos: Batman is a self-made hero, an ordinary man whose life did not bestow upon him any special powers or other fantastical elements that would differentiate him from others. Instead, he chose to be a hero, and uses human training, detective smarts and high-tech weaponry to facilitate his war on crime. The idea that a reasonably-intelligent individual such as Amanda Waller (especially considering how much she'd have to know about genetics from her involvement with Cadmus) would think that Lamarck Was Right is rather mind-boggling. And let's not even touch how Terry was expected to become Batman without ever meeting Bruce Wayne.
Waller was trying to recreate Batman in all ways, and being extremelyGenre Savvy about it. Bruce Wayne's phenotype clearly helped; she knew there was nothing in his genes preventing the physical development of Batman, and what was there worked well for a strong, agile, durable man. Also, remember that Bruce has a habit of taking in youngsters whose parents are killed right in front of them, and Terry's father worked for Wayne-Powers, which gives him that connection. Waller may have expected/intended for Wayne to take on Terry as a ward, as he did for Tim and Dick before, and let it run its natural course. If history has shown us anything in comics, it's that if you are a young man in the Wayne household for any stretch of time, you will accidentally find the Batcave and find yourself wearing a super suit in short order.
But Waller never anticipated the two of them meeting each-other and even if she did, it's still a Gambit Roulette that discounts the possibility of just walking up to Bruce and suggesting that he train a replacement.
I'm pretty sure that Terry's parents were selected to be personality/behavior matches for Bruce's parents. She did not just pick a random couple and hope for the best; so she had nature and nurture pretty much covered.
^The above was actually confirmed in-universe; Waller explicitly states that she was looking for a couple that fit the psychological profile of Thomas and Martha Wayne. Remember, Waller was being veryGenre Savvy, and had been around Cadmus enough to take psychology into account.
I doubt that Waller's plan was as simple as 1. Screw with DNA, 2. Murder Parents, 3. ??? 4. BATMAN!. Given how much effort she'd put into it, and was willing to put into it, it's probably safe to say there were steps in the plan post parent-murder to nudge/guide/shove him toward being Batman. But since the plan was derailed at that second step and then abandoned, Waller just didn't bother to tell Terry what the rest of her plan was because it was irrelevant. If step 2 of your plan is where it fell apart, no sense in summing up steps 3-10.
As to why not just talking to Bruce? He's just not the sort of guy you can talk into things like that. He's stubborn. Plus, after the thing with Drake, he would be understandably opposed to training another kid like that.
It's not Lamarck Was Right, Bruce Wayne was obviously well suited from a genetic standpoint to be Batman. Look at his height, physical build, good looks, and intelligence; these are all things that are determined in large part before you are even born. They are like base stats; sure, you can get some bonuses by training, but you are not gonna be able to completely remake your body and mind as if they are made out of legos.
Bruce Wayne's heart problems suggest his genes are inferior. Men who work out and exercise generally experience far less age-related physical decline than their peers. Given the sheer amount of effort and training he put into being Batman, he should have been in better shape even in his 50's and 60's than men half his age, unless there were other factors predisposing him to a weak heart.
Bruce Wayne didn't just "work out and exercise", he overexerted himself almost constantly for the majority of his adult life. It has little, if anything, to do with genes, and more to do with burning himself out doing constant all-nighters, and keeping up with literal superhumans, and getting knocked around, quite frequently, by same. Batman or not, he's only human.
But he's still—Batman! You don't maintain your Charles Atlas Superpower figure by neglecting little things like your long term health and Batman being Crazy-Prepared would keep up with regular checkups to ensure he was not chipping away at his own wellness. Granted, the events of ROTJ might have contributed to a long-downward spiral on his overall spiritual fortitude and Batman-ness but still; it's strange that he dismisses his heart problems as an absolute obstacle rather than just another challenge to overcome.
He did try to find ways to overcome it, one of those was the Mecha-Batsuit that ended up causing him even more heartstrain, the Suit that Terry wears is almost certainly a response itself to his health problems. Trouble is, even for Batman, there comes a point where the human body has to give way to age. There is a point where it is an absolute obstacle, and that is one that even Bruce couldn't outgambit.
I'm sure he had checkups and such, but a lifestyle like Bruce's is going to be "chipping away at his own wellness" no matter what he does. He's still human. He still ages. It's not like his heart just gave out when he was in his prime; look at the first scene in Rebirth, Part 1. Bruce is at least 20 years older than he was in his own series or Justice League (the woman he's rescuing is the full grown daughter of the woman he dated through a lot of his series), and he's still pushing himself as hard as he did while he was in his prime. That's going to wear on you; plus I believe he said the suit itself put strain on his heart.
For years Batman was fighting the Joker, the Scarecrow and Poison Ivy to name just some of the most prominent enemies that used chemicals. Think about what kind of hazardous gases and liquids he must have been exposed to at least once a month by them. Then there's the many hits from opponents who range from human levels of strength to near-Superman. On top of that is his tendency to not wait till he's fully healed before he gets into combat. Combine that with the incredible amount of stress he must be experiencing on a daily basis. The fact that he managed to survive long enough to retire and still help in Batman Beyond is a minor miracle.
He wasn't talking about the normal Batsuit there, but about the Powered Armor one, but his health was not the entire reason for his quitting. The Problem was, that it forced him to use a gun to threaten a bad guy. Even if he had been fully healed the next day he would not have taken up the cape and cowl again, because he had violated his one rule, which made him unfit to be Batman in his own eyes.
The episode actually mentions that she chose Terry's parents specifically because they matched the Waynes' psychological profiles. As for how she was planning to get Terry under Bruce's tutelage: it's possible that her plan was that after the Mc Ginnis's were assassinated, Waller would call in a favor with some local official to have Gotham's social services administration contact Bruce Wayne about taking in young Terry. Or it's possible that Waller was planning to literally bring Terry to Wayne Manor, and confess her role in the matter, not caring that Bruce would send her to jail, because in her view her job would already be done: Bruce wouldn't have the heart to send the orphan Terry away, and would end up raising him; Waller seems like the type who'd view her own potential arrest as a perfectly acceptable loss, in exchange for ensuring the continued legacy of Batman.
If Ace had Reality Warper powers, why couldn't she just use them to get rid of her brain tumor?
Maybe the tumors were somehow related to her powers? A Reality Warper warping their own brain that warps reality sounds like a very sketchy idea. Given that Ace could read minds and Batman would likely have thought of Ace using her powers to cure herself, it could be that trying it is exactly what would create the "Psychic Backlash" Waller warned Batman about. Plus, Ace was pretty much suicidal by that point anyway.
Ace didn't have a brain tumor, she had an aneurysm. That means one or more blood vessels inside her brain swelled up with blood and then ruptured. And since using her powers is what caused it, using her powers on her brain to try and stop it would probably have only accelerated the damage.
Who pays for this stuff?
The Money. Where does it all come from? I know Bruce funded the original watch tower, sneaking away millions if not billions of dollars some how. But the new one? And enough Javelins to constitute an armada? Not to mention the staffing, maintenance and the wages necessary for something that brings in NO money at all!
WAIT I got it; the cafeteria is really expensive.
Batman isn't the only one with huge monetary resources assuming Green Arrow is owner of Queen Industries in the DCAU. Add to that, 50+ superheroes make appearances as part of the post Thanagarian Invasion Justice League either as secondary characters or via cameos. Some of them are extraterrestrial in origin and thus have access to alien technology and there is more than one super scientist among them. The Justice League could have used these various technologies in the Watchtower's construction. They could be making money off some the less dangerous and more replicable of their members' inventions and/or alien technology they may have brought back from off earth missions. It also helps to have guys who can lift several tons and reach escape velocity unaided, they don't have to pay for a shuttle to get the components in orbit. The Justice League works all across the globe and they've helped multiple governments with natural and man made disasters and lets not forget them saving the world on multiple occasions. Some governments or wealthy civilians may sometimes show thanks by donating to the League.
Arrow is definitely rich. In one episode he mentions something about "Just selling a company for 3 billion dollars" then points out "After taxes and legal fees, it really only comes out to 1.5 billion".
The Future Justice League
In the Batman Beyond episode "The Call", JLU episode "The Once and Future Thing", and the Static Shock episode "Future Shock" the Justice League is shown to apparently only consist of less than a dozen members. While its understandable that some members would have left for their own reasons over time or simply grown too old for super heroics such as the original Batman, other younger heroes should of come to replace the old ones. Some of them don't even age or have very long life spans, example: Wonder Woman and the Martian Manhunter, and shouldn't have any problems with still being active in the Batman Beyond Era. It seems like there is the implication that at some point the extended League disbanded. It really bugs me there wasn't any explanation given for this.
Well, "The Call" was made before the JL series, so it was before the idea of having an expanded League in the first place. As for "The Once and Future Thing," it's mentioned in that episode that Chronos had been exterminating League members and those were the only ones left. I haven't seen "Future Shock," so I can't offer much explanation.
The bit about "The Call" makes sense, and after rewatching "The Once and Future Thing" J'onn J'onzz and Wonder Woman were mentioned having been killed when the future Watchtower was destroyed, so they're still part of the future League. In JLU episode "Epilogue" Terry has an Imagine Spot about quitting the League under the belief he's been manipulated into being Batman. Kai-Ro, Aquagirl and Warhawk are only JL members shown, though that may just be because they're the ones Terry is most familiar with. Perhaps the League members in "The Call" are simply the only ones stationed in Metropolis with Superman at the time the episode takes place. What seems weird is that in all the appearances of the future League only the members from "The Call", Static, and are ever shown on screen. Only one thing I still can't think of an explanation for, in "Future Shock" Terry states the reason he needs Past Static's help in rescuing Future Static is that no one else is available, mentioning "the League is off near Alpha Centauri and is on the other side of the world". It seems odd, if the future extended League is anywhere near the size of the present one, all of them would be off on the same mission while only leaving three League members to watch over the Earth.
They let themselves get overstretched in the present day too. In Patriot Act they don't have the manpower to take Eiling.
The fact that the future league is called the Justice League Unlimited suggests that there may be other divisions (like a JLA or a JLE), perhaps the JLU being the most prominent or powerful.
They hint in Epilogue and The Once And Future Thing that the orbiting Watchtower is still there and the building we see called the Watchtower in The Call is actually the Metro Tower. That explains where some of the other league members are in The Call. A bit of a clumsy retcon but it works. And amanda states in Epilogue that the future justice league isn't as powerful as the present day one.
Think a little bigger, Roulette!
So Roulette, apparently with Lex Luthor's help, uses mind control devices in the JL communicators to get the girl heroes to fight each other in cage matches and charge admission/have people place bets on the outcome. Ok, understandably villainous/profitable thing to do, but why, why, WHY, if you could control even a few of the members of the Justice League, wouldn't you instead:
Use them to take over the world
Have them commit crimes for you and ruin their image
If you can only control some of them, make them kill the other members or themselves
Well, assuming Lex used his power of control over all the female heroes you still have a good load of heroes who would stop them killing each other or robbing banks etc to smear their image. The only ones with power levels to cause real issue are Wonder Woman and Supergirl, Hawkgirl could go on the list too, because while her powers are not immense, she is pretty wiley. The rest of them are either low/specific or gadget based powers that a significant portion of the male Leagu members could easily take down. Factor in that Batman keeps files on how to beat everyone, Superman is strong enough and fast enough to catch them and Captain Marvel/Captain Atom would help out, they wouldn't be a prolonged problem. Take the mind control away and you have a League ready to take Lex Down.
Taking over the world would also face similar problems. Say Lex used his tech to control all the members wearing the ear communicator. As far as we have seen, Batman is most often called through his computer and batmobile, I can recall limited instances when the ear one is used (correct me if I am wrong, but I think his communicator is on the utility belt) so that is one of the DCAU's most dangerous heroes loose from Lex's control. Then we are assuming that all Leaguers, no matter what their status, are using the earpiece 24/7. Considering that they have alter-ego's and their own teams, alliances and partnerships, the inactive members who are not on duty could forseeably not have the earpiece on to control them. They could be running interferance while Batman uses Waynetech satalites to kill the control signal, and who's to bet that he has a backdoor on the communication system anyway? So Lex quite sensibly decided to control a few at a time to fight and make him some money, some second stringers who wouldn't be noticed and the big guns on a part time basis. Thus making a tidy profit and chuckling to himself about making the lady Leaguers fight each other.
Thing is, if you're shown as having ACCESS to the League commlinks, why not take the links of some of it's more powerful members? Why not tamper with Superman's commlink, or GL or the Flash? I mean, they got Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl(2 of the original 7), so it's not like they can only get low level second stringers. In regards to the above mentioned scenario, say you take over a group of them and send them out to cause havoc, don't you think the other Leaguers will suit up(which includes putting their commlinks on) if it looks like Superman, WW, and a couple other heavy hitters have gone rogue? And once they do, bam, now you got them as well. Sure, there might be a few you miss, but if you can get most of them, especially the more powerful members...you would have a pretty powerful advantage(especially to the mind of smug supervillains, who pretty much always underestimate their foes). Even IF it only works on women(we aren't told either way rather it does or doesn't), which sorta prevents the "world take over" routine(as mentioned, only WW, Supergirl, and possibly Zatanna are really at a high enough level to pose a threat to the other high level Leaguers) you'd think being able to have a Wonder Woman or Supergirl under your control you could at least find a few more potent uses for them outside of cage matches. Even at the most basic simple level, how bout, I dunno, asking Wonder Woman or Hawkgirl "BTW, do you know the real identity of Batman? What about the Flash?"
Ever hear of something called a "field test"? Testing a mind-control device by forcing League members to cat-fight each other in their sleep whilst making some cash off the fights at the same time sounds like Lex Luthor's involved to me.
No easy forgivness for Hawkgirl
The original members knew that Shayera wasn't fully informed about the Thanagarian's true plans for Earth in Starcrossed, and they knew that she helped them in the end. So why isn't this public knowledge? This troper is going to assume that the government knew—which could explain why Shayera wasn't incarcerated—but if Vixen and Vigilante's reactions from Hunters Moon are anything to go by, everyone else doesn't know what really happened. Why? Also, in Doomsday Sanctuary we see Shayera at the meeting in the beginning and yet she's not present when they're deciding Doomsday's fate.
Even with all that, she still betrayed the League, and helped with the subjugation of Earth. The invasion wouldn't have happened at all without her being The Mole. Even if she didn't know the true extent of the plans, her actions still directly contributed to putting 7 billion people in danger. As for Vixen and Vigilante, I forget about the former, but Vigilante mentions that he was captured and imprisoned during the invasion, so he's got a personal reason to be pissed at her.
OP here and I get all of that, but Vixen and Vigilante's exchange in "Hunter's Moon" makes it apparent that the public doesn't know the whole story in Starcrossed.
Vigilante: I thought she betrayed us?
Vixen: Looks like she betrayed everyone.
It's possible they tried to tell everyone the whole story but they weren't able to overcome the wave of anti-Thanagarian hysteria that no doubt gripped the entire Earth after the invasion was thwarted. Most people probably saw it like the above troper described. She may not have known the whole plan, but she was still a willing participant and it never would have happened at all if it hadn't been for her. I mean, just try to imagine that conversation for a moment:
Justice League: Shayera's not a bad person. She didn't mean for it to go down like that. And when push came to shove she stood with us.
General Public: You mean she conveniently switched sides when her people were getting their wings handed to them!
JL: No, I mean...look, that's not the point. She didn't know about the Thanagarians' plan to destroy the Earth, and she wouldn't have supported it if she had.
GP:Oh really? Do you honestly expect us to believe the top spy and personal consort of the supreme leader of the Thanagarian invasion force didn't even know what she was spying on us for? Really? What evidence is there for that, apart from her word?
JL: Well...none I guess. But she still stood with us and helped us take down the Thanagarians when it was clear they were planning to destroy the Earth. The point is, when she saw things were going too far she stood up for what's right.
GP: Yeah? And what about all the stuff they did before that? Martial law? Imprisonment of dissidents? Enslaving humans to build their machines? And, oh yeah, spying for an alien government?! Was that not "too far" enough for her?
And hell, even if they did explain the decision, I could still see people in an uproar that she gets off without punishment. YMMV, but watching the shows from B:tAS all throughout JLU, you can probably pick out a dozen instances of people committing far less serious crimes with far greater mitigating circumstances, and receiving zero leniency. To the man on the street, the sheer magnitude of Hawkgirl's transgresson contrasted with the lack of any penalty must seem like a travesty.
Kill waterbreathers by drowning
In the episode The enemy below why are Superman and Wonderwoman affected by a drowning trap-thing when they were clearly fine with breathing underwater earlier. The two Johns need to concentrate to use their powers (although if this included breathing any martian would be in a bit of a pickle if he couldn't concentrate while on mars) but I didn't think the others did.
Superman needs to breath as much as anyone else. Why do you think he always puts on a space suit when he's flying around outside the atmosphere? Ditto Wonder Woman.
Tell you the truth, I think the better question is, why does a society of people who breathe water have an execution device that kills by drowning? It's... completely non-lethal to any of their kind. Do they really execute that many surface dwellers?
Maybe it's an Atlantean execution device being run in reverse. For an Atlantean, they suck water out of the room and leave them to suffocate in the dry air (the DCU has semi-consistently established that Atlanteans can only survive for a limited time out of the water). For the odd surfacer trespasser, they use the same device but reverse the water pump.
Only that makes no sense because we clearly see water rushing into the Atlantean subs when the are cut open by GL, Superman and Wonder Woman. Which raises the question of why the subs had an air environment when they can clearly breath water.
Because then it'd be a chunk of metal that'd sink. The air counterbalances it, and a slight area is enough to make it sink or rise, aka like the way modern subs work.
The better question is why a city full of water-breathers is in a giant air bubble.
How does hawk girl get those sweatshirts on?
...you know, I've been watching this show regularly for something like five years now and I never considered that. Forget the shirts, which she could theoretically have brought from Thanagar or had specifically tailored, what about that dress she wore? She doesn't have the time to get somebody to produce a tailor-made dress that could fit around her wings on the short-notice of her date with Carter Hall, she just has it. Sure, she looks great in it, but where did it come from?
Actually the dress isn't a headscratcher at all. It's an ordinary dress with a back low enough that her wings aren't a problem. She can simply step into it and pull the straps up. Her original top wasn't a problem for this either. But think about her trying to put on those pull over sweatshirts with two huge wings in the way.
Given she starts wearing the sweatshirts after she betrays basically everybody, my guess the sweatshirt is a form of penance. Since wings are largely just a different kind of arm, she could pull the shirt over her head and then force her wings through the hole(s) in the back. It'd stretch the sweatshirt and probably hurt a lot but how to take it off without destroying it is a mystery.
Vandal Savage's explanation of why he couldn't travel back in time to fix his own mistakes felt half-done. Okay, he can't travel back to anytime that he exists in, and he's existed since the Stone Age. But there was some point in pre-history when the caveman who would become Vandal Savage hadn't been born yet. What's stopping him from traveling back then, and taking The Slow Path back to the modern day? Depending on the way causality works in the DCAU, he can either stop his young self from becoming immortal, or let it happen and give his younger self strict warnings about causing apocalypses. Heck, he can even take over the primitive world if he hasn't outgrown that obsession.
While he certainly could do that, I figure he just pegged it as not a fruitful plan since, after 25,000 years living through the same events all over again, he'd be too insane to really be able to stop Vandal Savage in the present. Of course, he could go back and kill himself (Or just prevent himself from becoming immortal), since he'd only need to live through something like twenty years to get to that point, and I can't think of why he wouldn't try that.
Initial troper here. Just realized that Savage could have reused the plan than that he almost won WWII with. He just has to send a message back to Savage about not playing with the force of gravity. I love that episode to bits, but I can't get the Fridge Logic out of my head.
Its possible he tried that and Past-Savage didn't listen to the message, or decided to go ahead with the experiment while taking "precautions", modifying his experiments with safety measures that of course failed.
There was something else about Hereafter that always bothered me. So Vandal Savage creates a machine that gives him control over gravity. Sure. He uses this machine to kill the Justice League and "disrupts the gravitational balance of the entire solar system". Okay, so that's why we can see what looks like Saturn in the sky that big. Did these gravitational disruptions also somehow age the Sun the several billion years necessary for it to enter the red giant stage? I mean I get that a powerless Superman creates more drama and tension to the story but... what?
Actually, yes, since the stage a star is in is directly related to its mass; changing the gravity (Perhaps removing much of a stars mass) will certainly alter its state.
Why did they not reveal Superman's secret identity since it would seem pointless to keep it (as far as they know)?
Why would they? All it would result in is a media blitz of Ma and Pa Kent, and/or supervillains targeting them directly.
Does the public think that Superman has a secret identity to begin with?
Offscreen mass murder in "Kid Stuff"
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but did anybody else catch the Fridge Horror in this episode? Mordred transported every adult on Earth to another dimension simultaneously. Sure, things were pretty well under control in the theme park where all of the action took place, but the rest of the world? Every car on every road on the planet just wrecked. Every plane in the sky just crashed. Any child receiving an operation in any hospital worldwide could only hope to bleed to death before the anesthetic wore off, and the number of infants dying from the four foot drop when mommy's suddenly teleported out, by itself, had to be in the thousands. Sure, we got shown a happy ending, but logically, every city in the developed world should have been in flames, and at least a quarter of the world's children should have died by misadventure.
Do we know how wide Mordred's spell was? Maybe it only affected a small area, and when the government and Justice League realized something was happening, they tried to keep as many people away from the area as possible. Maybe Mordred didn't want those younger than him to die under his reign, so he saved the babies. The truth is, we end up with so little from the story, the fridge horror is still up in the air.
Re-watched the episode. Morgaines's exact dialogue was that the spell affected "all adults", which I took to mean all adults on earth. Though I may have taking that too literally.
A map from the future
A minor one that might even be a nitpick, but in episode 25 of season 1 we briefly see a map of the world (while at Blackhawk Island) that clearly shows a North and South Korea. The problem is that those two nations wouldn't even be created as Soviet and American controlled zones until 1945. Usually it might just be a mistake of using the wrong map but this is an animated show. Someone had to actually choose to put in the words 'N. Korea' and 'S. Korea'.
Blackhawk Island might not necessarily have been sealed away immediately, unless I'm forgetting something. Depending on how long it took them to gather all that crap, an updated map wouldn't be out of the question.
At the time the episode takes place, there simply wouldn't be any South or North Korea's to exist on maps. The best answer is probably the animators tried too hard for accuracy and didn't think to check the dates.
What measure is an alien invader?
In the first three episodes of Justice League the team seems to have no problem melting a large number of alien invaders to death. Admittedly those aliens did seem to plan to wipe out the human race, but this is the same universe where killing Luthor to stop a nuclear war was treated as going too far. Are these people operating under the assumption that someone only deserves to live if they look human? It's even worse considering the number of nonhumans on the team or acquainted with it.
It wasn't just killing Luthor that was too far. It was Superman killing him in cold blood when he had other options. And then proceeding to take over the world. The rest of the League has variously had considerably less problem with killing in battle (Wonder Woman in particular); the Thanagarian invasion and when they went back to World War II stand out—and What Measure Is a Non-Human? is hardly unique to this series anyway.
It wasn't just that they killed Luthor. Hell, it wasn't even just that Superman killed Luthor. It was the reason Superman killed Luthor that was going too far. Here's the exact conversation that took place (courtesy of Wikiquotes):
Footnoted for space [The Justice League is attacking the White House, with Luthor in the Oval Office] Lex Luthor:[to himself] They couldn't see the beauty! No imagination! They'd rather fight! [Superman bursts into the office] Superman: Even this wasn't enough for you, was it? You had to have it all. Now we're on the brink of a war that could destroy the whole planet! Lex Luthor: ... Could've been so perfect... paradise... Superman: And I let it get this far because of the law. And the will of the people. Lex Luthor:[laughing] The people?! This is all their fault! And they're gonna burn for it! Burn! Superman: You're nothing but a mad dog now, aren't you? Lex Luthor: Ooh, a threat! But this old dog still has a few teeth! [Pulls out a drawer with a control box, and poises his finger above a red button. There is a pause.] Superman: There are at least six different ways I can stop you right now. Lex Luthor: But they all involve deadly force, don't they? And you don't do that. [Superman is silent] Lex Luthor: No. You need me. You wouldn't be much of a hero without a villain, and you do love being a hero, don't you? The cheering children, the swooning women - you love it so much, it's made you my most reliable accomplice! Superman: Accomplice?! What're you— Lex Luthor: You could have crushed me any time you wanted. And it wasn't the law or the will of the people that stopped you - it was your ego. Being a hero was too important to you. You're as much responsible for this as I am! So go ahead, fix it somehow. Put me on trial, lock me up - but I'll beat it. And then we'll start the whole thing all over again. Superman: ... I did love being a hero. But if this is where it leads... I'm done with it. [Superman's eyes begin to glow]
As you can see, the dialogue makes it clear that Superman essentially discarded his entire moral code when he decided to kill Luthor. And he wasn't sad that he was forced to kill Luthor, he was HAPPY about it. THAT was the slippery slope moment, not the act of killing itself.
It's not just aliens who get short thrift, either. Check out how the JL gleefully smash huge airliners crammed full with German soldiers a few thousand feet above the empty ocean in the "Savage Time" battle over the Atlantic. Granted, those deaths are offscreen, but you don't have to be a genius to figure out they're racking up a huge body count. It's less What Measure Is a Non-Human? and more What Measure Is a Mook?. And, out of universe, what gets by the watchdogs.
Aquaman is a board member? Why?
Why is Aquaman allowed in the Leagues founding members room so casually. I thought you had to be a founder for that. The only other time I remember non-founders, being allowed in the founding member room was when Captain Marvel quit, and when Question found out their dirty little secret. Could he have honorary founders status or something... He did work with them a few times in the original series, and they did consider him as a replacement member when they thought Supes was dead.
The Founding Seven walked in one day and he was already sitting in one of the chairs, with his feet on the table and his eyebrows at Maximum Scowl. Somehow they just never got around to asking him to leave.
It is also possible that they asked him to replace Hawkgirl, and became a defacto "original" member, before they decided to do the whole "let's try to get as many heroes as possible" thing. It would also make sense, in matters that required a vote, one can never have a tie when an odd number of people are voting on the subject (assuming everybody votes, that is). Or they needed to give him extra powers to convince Aqua-man to take time away from his KINGDOM to be part of the justice league.
There's a subtle hint about that in Hereafter. When they're suggesting replacements for the "dead" Superman, not only was he suggested as a replacement, he was actually CHOSEN as a replacement. If you watch later in the episode, when Supers gets to the destroyed Watchtower in the future and brings up the roster screen, it shows the original 6 PLUS Aquaman. So at least in that reality, that Aquaman was the one who replaced Supes after he "died". Sure that reality was prevented, but perhaps sometime before the full expansion of the League he was the first member who joined(perhaps as the above poster mentioned, as a replacement for Hawkgirl) and was then treated as part of the "group".
Or Superman could have brought Aquaman aboard as a reserve/alternate member after the aforesaid jaunt into the future much the same way Green Arrow was offered a spot in the opening of JLU.
Something that came to me recently regarding Legends: everyone focuses on how John Stewart gets that 'you're a credit to your race son' line while missing a really big plot hole. When Stewart intervenes to prevent the theft of that rare violin the bad guy comments on how 'well change your costume but I can still tell it's you Green Guardsman'. Now tell me, it's a 1950s style setting and he can't tell that this obviously BLACK man isn't his obviously WHITE opponent he's fought many times? That the only thing he notices is the difference in costumes? Not that the guy's a young, very black bald man and not a very white middle-aged white-haired man.
The Green Lantern rings have frequently been shown to be able to disguise their bearer; changing how they look, including the color of their skin, apparent age, and even gender. I'll admit it's odd that he only comments on the costume and not everything else, but I'll wager he's seen the Guardsman desguise himself before for other purposes, and just assumed it was more ring trickery.
Actually he didn't just comment on the costume. The villain's exact words were "Your disguise can't fool me, Green Guardsman!"
Why did Ray get treated as the villain? At first, they just thought he was the only one left and somehow creating an illusionary enviornment, which isn't exactly evil. Sure, it's shown later that people were being forced into roles against there will, but the Leagues reactions indicate they didn't know that before.
He's lying to them and putting them in mortal danger for his own thrills. Even if there was nobody else on the planet, and he wasn't harming anybody before, as soon as the League arrived he began attacking them without regard for their well-being.
One thing has bugged me with this episode. The final battle of the ep is against Ray, who defeats 4 members of the Justice League (and some of the stronger ones at that) with hardly any effort on his part or damage thanks to his reality warper mental powers and barrier that can shrug off Green Lantern's ring blasts and Hawkgirl's mace like it's nothing. However, the headscratcher comes when the Justice Guild decides to take him out, and each of them hurt Ray with their every blow, and Ray is hardly even able fight back, including Black Siren and Catman, who, like Batman are just Badass Normals, they shouldn't have even been able to make him flinch if the League couldn't do it. Why were the Justice Guild doing so much better than the League especially since their Let's You and Him Fight earlier in the episode established that both teams are roughly equal in power? Not to mention, why didn't Ray simply blink the Guild out of existence with a thought since he created them, recreating them later once the League was dealt with?
The thing about the Justice Guild is they weren't just beating him with straight up strength. They were beating him because they were something he created and cared about and which he didn't want to hurt—the Justice League were something he didn't want in his world, while the Justice Guild are something he set up the entire world for. They were effective against him because, deep down, he didn't want to hurt them.
It's a safe bet that Ray's powers, like many psychics in fiction, are based off/fueled by willpower. Being attacked by his heroes would be a major blow to his ability to focus which could be why he wasn't able to defend himself from them, as opposed to just holding them at bay with a barrier.
Ray must have known on some level that what he was doing to the other survivors was wrong. He hid that behind walls of denial and rationalization, which cracked when the League heroes intruded into his world and dug up the truth. Once Ray could no longer deny that he was the villain in this scenario, he simply couldn't imagine his heroes not confronting and defeating him, so that's what happened.
Supergirl's French leave
Am I the only one that finds Supergirl's staying in the future utterly ridiculous, stupid, and forced? She has a few lines of dialogue with a boy she's never met before, suddenly she's so in love with him that she abandons everyone she's ever known without even saying goodbye in person, without ever being able to see them again? Yeah, I know, 'growing out from under Superman's shadow', but this part of her character is never brought up before so it comes right out of the blue. And now she's lost her family again. Plus, as a fan of hers, it kind of seems disrespectful to the character to put her on a Long Bus Trip, and right before the finale!.
The writers were probably getting rid of Supergirl because it's like having 2 Supermans with her around, which makes the fact that ANYBODY can beat the massive expanded League even more ridiculous than it already is.
The real reason is that they wanted to spin off Legion of Superheroes into its own series, with Supergirl serving as the link.
"Everyone she's ever known" for less than 5 years, the bulk of which has been spent on the Kent Farm trying to be a 'normal Teenager'... Really the only people she's not saying good bye too is the league, Ma & Pa Kent, and Maybe Jimmy Olson... and I'm pretty sure she expressly stated she's been struggling with life in early 21st Century Kansas having known Kryptonian Technology as a child and that 31st Century Earth is closer to Krypton's tech levels.
Ma and Pa became like parents to her, and 5 years is a long time. That she'd just leave without at least saying goodbye is unthinkable. Not to mention the plot point you mentioned was never brought up before this episode, and 31st century earth isn't really anything like Argo either. All of this is compounded by the fact that she did it all for a boy she just met!
Sixteen-year-olds have been known to make hasty decisions from time to time. And it's not like it's irreversible; she can always take another "time bus" back to the present if she decides she made the wrong choice, or even just to visit.
"The Doomsday Sanction"
Apologies if this has been asked, but, what was Batman complaining about at the end? The Phantom Zone is the only place they could possibly hold Doomsday. What would Bruce rather they do? Prison? They can't hold a clown. Give him to the Government? Yeah, give Cadmus back their super weapon, I'm sure that will work out great. There was nowhere else they could hold possibly send him, and he can't come back and threaten anyone else, so what's his problem?
Batman's problem with it has to do with a couple of things. The biggest being that a small group of people basically made a life or death decision. With this being fresh off the back of the Justice Lords Batman has a genuine (and legitimate) fear that if the Justice League for whatever reason decide to take over the world there is nobody who could stop them. As powerful as Doomsday is when you remember Mongol and Darksied are part of the DC universe he's not so much an unstoppable monster as he is extremely powerful. This fear is a large part of the story of Justice League: Doom or Tower of Babel if you prefer the comic. Also the Phantom Zone doesn't really have a much better record of keeping prisoners than deep space or for that matter Hell in the DC verse. Had the JLA held a formal trial of sorts, even consulted the entire league instead of making a decision amongst the core seven Batman would likely have reacted differently.
It actually wasn't even the core seven. There was only seating for six, and Shayera wasn't there. Confirming the suspicions, this shows a level of secrets within secrets.
Given that Superman was pushed to try what his Justice Lord counterpart did (lobotomising Doomsday), why does he feel confident enough to joke about it when Bruce accuses him of going too far? One would think that kind of attitude is exactly where the alternate League/Lords started prior to their Luthor becoming President, and their Flash being killed. Under the circumstances it seems highly irresponsible and short-sighted.
Superman was glad to be alive, and glad nobody else died. But that flippancy could be seen (by the Question, if not by Batman) that the two Supermen were slowly becoming more similar. That alone would explain how furious Bruce got about it.
J'onn's Story Breaker Power
If anyone can provide a decent Hand Wave as to why he didnt instantly resolve the Cadmus mystery by mind reading Luthor or Waller, or why he doesn't easily defeat almost any enemy with his intangibility, I'd be much obliged.
Ultimately the same reason why Superman forgets he's close enough to the Flash in speed for them to have races and has ice breath. He simply forgets that he has powers that he's not accustomed to using all the time. As for why didn't he mind read them I'm not sure what Cadmus mystery you're specifically referring to. Mind reading probably doesn't work well on Lex. He might not be Batman but he's likely figured out enough tricks that mind readers either get nothing or exactly what he wants them to get from him, as for Waller what did she know that would have changed anything had the League known? The extent of her plan is the well intentioned if poorly executed point that if the League turned on the Earth nothing and nobody could stop them and she fears for her country. Heck in the past one brainwashed Superman has been a threat they couldn't handle (though for no obvious reason none of the other heroes showed up and none of the villains one would expect to step up did either. One would expect Lex, Metallo, quite possibly Toyman(either one) and anybody else who calls Earth home to have shown up against Darkseid but that's another question all together.) Reading Waller probably wouldn't have resulted in anything more than reading the General would have. I love my country and won't leave it undefended against aliens with an orbital death cannon.
It is entirely possible that Martian Manhunter reads people's minds on a regular basis. However, in order to read someone's mind your own mind has to be in direct contact with the target's thoughts. Given the level of "intimacy" that implies, I can imagine J'onn would want to limit his mental contact with the likes of Lex Luthor and the other psychopaths he deals with on a regular basis. Also, non-telepath races appreciate the illusion of privacy of their own thoughts. Maybe that's why the overall portrayal of J'onn is as terse, secretive and private person. It's been said in universe that meditation or training (like Batman's) can help you obscure your thoughts from telepaths. Also, heavily improvising or otherwise acting without a conscious plan gives very little warning for a telepath to pick up on. The Joker benefits from this immensely. J'onn may receive tons of warning about a sniper lining up a shot, but his telepathy completely useless against stray bullets. Intangibility makes Martian Manhunter nearly invulnerable and lets him survive in vacuum but he still can't really "touch" anything. trying to re-materialize his hand in say, someone's brain, is murder. And heroes don't do that in the DCU. Not to mention what that could potentially do to J'onn's hand.
Assuming that Crisis on Two Earths can be treated as an accurate display of MM's powers apparently re-materializing your hand around someone's heart is an incredibly dickish thing to do but not particularly dangerous to anybody.
Long story short, half the League (J'onn, The Flash, Superman and GL) got beaten with the Nerf stick, otherwise we'd have had a very short show.
"Task Force X" shows that Cadmus has found a way to block telepathy.
Martian Manhunter is Lawful Good, and "I read his mind" doesn't hold up in court. Also, he's on the Watchtower the entire time, so he never comes into contact with Waller or Luthor.
Morality in "Dead Reckoning"
It's apparently an absolutely horrible thing that at the end Deadman was forced to take a life to save Wonder Woman. Why? Was he expected to just stand there and watch? What would that have done to the monks' precious 'balance'? And if it's terrible that he used Batman's body to do it (which isn't what the monks and that goddess focus on) then again, what was he supposed to do? If the show wanted to send a message about how heroes shouldn't kill, then why did they force in a situation that was morally ambiguous at most?
Well he could have possessed Wonder Woman and parried the shot with those bracers of hers...
Where is it ever said that it was an "absolutely horrible thing" that Deadman killed him? Batman didn't like it, but Batman is pathologically against killing and using guns in general, and it was his hand that did the killing, even if he wasn't in control. As for the monks and the goddess, well, they're supposed to be ideal pacifists. There were other things he could've done—had Batman shout a warning to the super-fast woman who can block it with her bracers, for instance.
A bullet would kill Wonder Woman? Remember when she beat Superman in a fist fight. (Okay, he gave up after he realized they had been tricked into fighting but that was only after she hit him in a way that brought up his reflection. Would a handgun even hurt her?
How did Amazo use Superman's powers at night time?
Amazo copied Superman's powers at NIGHT TIME. He didn't have any capacity to absorb the solar radiation that gives Superman his powers before he copied Superman, so how on earth could he use them the instant he copied him?
Amazo copied Superman's powers when he was already powered. Also, there is still solar radiation at night.
Dr. Destiny/John Dee being a Luthor fanboy
Let me get this straight... John Dee wants to be noticed by Luthor and the other villains, the same Luthor who cost him his freedom AND his marriage. His employer secretly smuggled weapons, his wife leaves him for another guy, and he is locked up for a long time. What does he do with his powers? He goes after the Justice League. Okay, they WERE responsible for his arrest, but why not go after Luthor, too?
Batman being a jerk to Superman for attacking Darkseid
I know Batman supposed to be stoic, but doesn't Superman have a right to be angry? Darkseid brainwashed him, killed a great cop, and turned him against the earth. I seriously doubt Batman would work with Joker after what he did to Tim Drake. The whole "cry me a river" line was uncalled for.
...and many others
Where would the founding members of the League go in the four-temperament ensemble? I know there are seven of them, but I've been thinking about this one for a while. Batman is definitely melancholic, Superman is phlegmatic, Hawkgirl is probably choleric, and Flash is sanguine, although I'm not so sure about Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern.
Not every ensemble fits into that. Just like Five-Man Band doesn't fit every work.
In "Secret Society," why is Batman of all people the one who is against having team practice? He claims that it's wasting time, but considering that he trains extensively when he's not fighting anyway, shouldn't it be considered out-of-character for him not to have backed Green Lantern in having team practice?
You have to ask why Mr. "I Work Better Alone" is against practicing with a team?
Mr. "I Work Better Alone" is the only member of the Justice League who routinely works as part of a group. Batman The Animated Series is considered cannon and by the end he was almost never seen without Batgirl and/or Robin. Even Nightwing got some love. None of the others even have dedicated sidekicks. I find it nearly impossible to believe that the Batfamily never ran drills as a group. Knowing your team's strengths and weaknesses is a must and it is a bit odd that Batman was the one who called it out. Especially when Superman is (in combat) more central to the group and has every reason to believe "If I can't handle it the rest of you bitches are screwed anyway." and refuse to train with his distraction squad.
Correction: Batman is the only member of the Justice League who routinely works as the absolute leader of a group. Robin and Batgirl take orders from Batman, and Batman does not consider them equal peers; and even then, a whole lot of BTAS has Batman operating without either of them, and there are several times he orders one of them to stay out of it. By contrast, the Justice League is a group he doesn't command, and everyone there is supposed to be an equal peer. Batman's used to having sidekicks as backup that he can command, not being part of a group of more powerful people he can't command.
Maybe it is just another manifestation of Bruce's own neurosis/psychosis regarding the event that caused him to become Batman. He's pushing them away before he gets too emotionally involved, being a full member of a team is too much like being a full member of a family. He can't handle that because his last family was killed in front of him. So if he doesn't join in fully, then they can't hurt him by leaving (or by being killed).
Another thing to consider is this is while they're all being psychically influenced by Grodd. He's pushing them to say and do things they otherwise wouldn't. So maybe under normal circumstances, Batman can push aside his loner tendencies to work with a group just fine, but with Grodd reaching in and messing with him, it overrides his logic.
So I read there are five seasons on the trope page, but I can only find four seasons of the show on iTunes. Is there a reason, or am I missing something?
It was more that the first of the JLU seasons was two half seasons when it aired and are just treated as one afterward.
Why isn't Booster Gold involved in any of the episodes dealing with time travel?
I'm gonna go with "irony".
Because he's busy doing crowd control.
In the episode "Dead Reckoning", Grodd uses genetic tech to transform human DNA into ape DNA. Normally, science tomfoolery aside, I could accept this. My only problem with it is that it also transformed Superman. You know, the alien who is not from this planet and isn't human?
"Species" is generally defined by individuals' resemblance to one another and their ability to interbreed. While I'm pretty sure the current comics' stand is that you can't mix humans and Kryptonians, some out of continuity one-shots from Alan Moore and John Byrne have showed Lois and Clark producing viable offspring, as did "Superman Returns". I just assume that the Diniverse works that way; Kryptonians and homo sapiens have similar enough DNA to interbreed, Kryptonians went through a simian evolutionary stage, and Grodd's gizmo acted on that DNA to create "Super Monkey".
Why the hell does everybody believe that nimrod in "Eclipsed" who keeps mocking the Justice League after they've REPEATEDLY SAVED THE EARTH? Are they just idiots like civilians in comic books?
The popularity of celebrities waxes and wanes both in the real world and in comics. Eclipsed seems to be set at a time when the League's popularity was waning slightly (I blame the Flash) and Gordon Godfrey saw an opportunity to whip that mild discontent into a frenzy.
"Wake the Dead": Wait, how could Superman "break the tie" regarding Hawkgirl's status in the League? Without her, there are six possible votes total. If there is a tie, the decision should be deadlocked because there isn't an odd member who can cast a deciding vote. They could obviously resolve the tie somehow, but you couldn't call it breaking a tie...
Green Lantern says outright that he recused himself from the vote, either in the episode they voted, or later.
If Green Lantern voted for her to stay, it would have seemed biased because he'd had a personal relationship with her. And if he voted for her to go, it could have seemed as if he was trying to go with everyone else's choice rather than his own.
By the time Joker revealed that the whole thing was just a pretext to get people tuned in for the Mass Hypnosis Hour, Batman was fighting the Jack. While Wayne Enterprises probably has jamming technology somewhere, the controls for it presumably are not on the Bat-belt.
Why was Sinestro on Earth, helping Grodd and then Luthor?
Grodd said he was in the Secret Society because he'd sworn an oath against all Green Lanterns. (Which explains nothing, but it's the best they give us officially.)
Earth is quite possibly the best place to go Green Lantern hunting. While Justice League only officially names one, John Stewart, Justice League is part of the same cannon as Superman: The Animated Series. Which means Hal Jordon should be floating around somewhere. Kyle Raynor and/or Guy Gardner may also be present in some form or another or at least consider the place close enough to 'home' that if you want to make their lives hell there is no place better to hang around.
He'd heard about Project Cadmus and tyranny-in-the-name-of-safety sounded like his kind of fun, but he showed up too soon.
How do Green Lanterns travel from star system to star system? We never see one fly faster than a jet, and in Eclipsed, it's even a plot point that John can't go light speed.
Green Lanterns may not be able to fly at light speed, but it's a matter of fact that they can travel faster than light by means of hyperspeed or wormholes. What John couldn't do in that episode was achieve the necessary conventional speed to activate the wormhole drive on the Javelin when they disconnected it.
"This Little Piggy". Now, this troper can be a bit thick, but what, precisely, was it that Batman gave up in exchange for Circe undoing her spell?
One of his secrets.
You do realize that she has just made 'The GD D@mn Batman' perform a Vintage Love Ballad to what appears to be an all male audience, while in Full costume. I'm pretty sure there are all kinds of sacrifice in that situation.
Why did the Thanagarians need the hyperspace bypass to be on Earth? Sure, the route for their bypass apparently had to go through our solar system, but on an interstellar scale the distance between Earth and Mars is so trivial as to be not even be worth mentioning. So why not use the planet that no longer has any life on it, and thus doesn't have anybody that could even attempt to interfere with your plan? Even if they didn't give a damn about whether people would die because of their bypass, it'd have still been quicker and easier for the Thanagarians to use an uninhabited planet.
We don't really know how long this has been the plan and while I'm sure it's mentioned at some point in the Comics the show never makes it clear at all how old Martian Manhunter is or how long his society has been gone. So the choice might not have been between an uninhabited planet and an inhabited one but one inhabited by two breeds of similarly absurdly powerful races or a planet with humans. Amazons are sufficiently rare that most Earthlings don't know about them, Supes is from a bit out of town I imagine the GL Corps must normally not interfere with them much. Even if they'd known all about these being not via Hawkgirl but prior to even choosing Earth I'd STILL choose and the Justice League vs a planet filled with Martian Manhunters!
How did the Watchtower got built so very quickly? For reference, in Paradise Lost, Wonder Woman said she left her home island 8 months ago, meaning there's less than a year between Paradise Lost and Secret Origins. It's possible Superman, J'onn J'onzz, Hawkgirl and maybe Green Lantern gave a hand since they have alien technological expertise. But a scene at the end of Secret Origins implied that everyone saw the Watchtower for the first time, meaning Batman was the only involved in the project. Also, it would take normally years just to come up with the concepts, designs and schematics. Bruce has a space division exploration, but how do have your employees work on the Watchtower without tipping them off they're really working for the League?
It wouldn't shock me at all to find out that Batman has plans for his own War World tucked away somewhere encase he needs it. Probably. Like a LOT of things Batman does he clearly has a lot of mechanics who are paid huge sums of money not to ask a lot of questions. It's not just Lucas over at Waynetech, there are people who make his Batarangs, who work on the Batmobile, etc etc. He doesn't have the time to do it all himself. How he managed to sneak it into space is a mystery though, we have so many telescopes aimed at the sky all over the world all the time that it doesn't seem possible at all that nobody noticed the launch or if he built it in space once it got larger than say a dump truck someone still should have noticed.
In Starcrossed, why couldn't the Thanagarians just ask the Justice League to help them on their home planet against the Gordanians instead of lying to them and tricking them into building a device to destroy Earth in order to warp them to the Gordanians home world? The Gordanian fleet had been near Thanagar for so long, that they kept sending army after army to destroy Thanagar. Had the Thanagarians not made themselves enemies of the League, the latter would've been more than willing to help them. The League would never turn down those who would've needed their help. The Thanagarians clearly looked like they needed League assistance, but decieving them and trying to destroy Earth to save their home world was just the deal breaker. After all, the Thanagarians are aware of the Justice League's reputation, so the could've just scrapped the plan to build the hyperspace bypass generator early on, and instead just ask the League to assist them in Thanagar, so that the League could use their superpowers and skills to destroy the Gordanian mothership and defeat their commander and probably a good amount of their fleet. The seven Leaguerers are just so powerful, that asking their assistance against their enemies would save the Thanagarians the burden of having to deceive the heroes as well as a complex plan that would destroy other planets. Doing so would also prevent Thanagar from being conquered, and put a huge dent to the Gordanians.
One obvious possibility is that the Thanagarians are too proud to ask for help when they see any chance of winning on their own and/or too full of themselves to believe that a bunch of offworlders are really great and powerful enough to tip the balance of the war.
I think you are also vastly overestimating the League. Repelling a one-time alien invasion is one thing, but fighting a vast alien empire is another. The Gordianians have a vast empire streatching over many worlds that would have been brought to bear against Earth. And as the show made clear some of the larger alien spaceships or weapons could kill Superman. The Thangarians only left Earth after their plans had been thwarted and they did not have any more resources to spare. Darkseid's first invasion was only defeated thanks to the intervention of New Genesis and his second was after Apokolips's fleet had been destroyed by New Genesis and its own military weakened by years of civil war. How many civilians died when Apokolips' forces were randomly blasting cities and the League was busy battling parademons. So, I don't think the League would get involved because it simply did not have the resources to fight an interstellar empire and attempting to do so would endanger Earth.
Doubtful. The war seems to be eating up a lot of resources from both sides. It's highly unlikely the Gordanians would divert a significant portion of their fleet to deal with the homeland of what they would probably see as mercenaries and if they did the Thanagarians would take advantage of it. It seems rather clear that they don't care about Earth or it's inhabitants. Using the Earth as a distraction would probably have a lot of appeal to them.
You still have the problem of dragging Earth into an interstellar war that unnecessarily threatens Earth. At best, Earth's heroes are away from Earth for a long period of time leaving Earth defenseless or the Gordanians eventually kill Earth's heroes leaving it defenseless. At worst, Earth becomes a target for the Gordanians. And we don't know if it would require a significant portion of their fleet. Hro Talak mentioned the lives of tens of billions of Thanagairans at stake. Assuming the Gordanians have a similar population they might be able to conquer or destroy Earth with what they view as a small task force. Either way it is none of Earth's business and the risks far outweigh any potential gain. The Thangarians would not care enough about Earth and would gladly risk it. However, I don't see the Justice League being willing to take the risk even if asked.
Perhaps this is made clearer in the comics, the show doesn't give us a lot of reasons to believe the Thanagarians are the good guys in this conflict. Certainly not blameless enough to draw the Justice League into a conflict that didn't involve the Earth in anyway.
From what I've heard about Thanagar in the comics post-crisis at least they are little different than the Gordanians. Maybe a bit less bloodthirsty, but and expansionist empire that conquers other worlds and engages in slavery. So it is one of those times where neither side is "good." You might call it the lesser of two evils, but that is it. In the end, Earth did not have anything to really gain from siding with Thanagar and there was no really "good side" to support.
Is there two seasons of JLU or three? While there is a tone difference between Initiation through The Once and Future Thing, Part 2: Time, Warped and The Cat and the Canary through Epilogue, there is a lot of evidence to support that the first twenty six episodes were produced as one season. JLU there was no break until The Doomsday Sanction, which was only for two months, notably shorter than the typical breaks between seasons. In the first thirteen episodes groundwork for the final battle against Cadmus was laid with episodes like Dark Heart and Ultimatum. On DVD, the first twenty six episodes are sold as a single season, and the quantity ordered are has president in both seasons of Justice League.
When Lex and Flash switched minds, Lex!Flash calls the Secret Society and tells them that Lex is an imposter. What, exactly, did he think that the Society would do to his body?
Kill it. It's a chance to A. remove a member of the Justice League and B. get superpowers of his own, superpowers that let him run circles around the JLU on their home turf.
The World's Greatest Hackers: In "Panic in the Sky," Batman tells Waller, "Someone took over our fusion cannon by remote control. There are maybe 3 people on Earth smart enough to pull that off. Two of them were already on the Watchtower." The third is obviously Lex Luthor. My questions are:
1. Why is Batman not including himself on that list (he was on Earth at the time, not on the Watchtower, since he wasn't a part of the original members' meeting earlier in the episode)?
2. Presumably The Question makes the list - he seems to have a propensity for getting information he's not supposed to have. So who's the third guy?
Strawman Has a Point: Remember Godfrey, the Jerk Ass journalist in the "Eclipsed" episodes who was denouncing the Justice League as a bunch of self-important glory hounds and a public menace? In the end, he was supposedly discredited when they saved the world from a super-powered lunatic. But looking over the facts, the only reason the crazy villain was almost able to destroy the solar system was that he was able to infiltrate the JL and use their supertech to do it. Effectively, they very narrowly averted a disaster that would never even have been a possibility without them being around, and then basked in the adulation of the masses for it. So, Godfrey was actually perfectly right all along?
No, because that guy would've been a threat to the world anyway. Godfrey saying that the league only does it for the glory does not mean he's right when someone else attacks them and steals their stuff to do bad with it.
Obviously he's wrong about them being selfish glory hounds. But while the guy would still be dangerous anyway, it's precisely their stolen supertech that turns what would otherwise be a minor villain of the week's incursion into a global threat. You can at least make a case that their security was lax, and thereby they unwittingly endangered the world. Which ties into Godfrey's whole spiel about them being careless and negligent.