open/close all folders
0-8- 4 Timeline
- So the device in the episode 0-8-4 was made by HYDRA, commissioned by the Peruvian government during WWII. Then how did Fitzsimmons mistake it for a several thousand year old artifact? The thing that tipped them off wasn't carbon dating or whatever, but just that the design looked German.
- It had embedded itself in rock and soil in a way that made it look like the millenia-old rock had formed around it. Probably wouldn't have fooled a geologist, but neither Fitz nor Simmons is a geologist.
- She was sensing the Tesseract energy in it, which IS thousands of years old.
- Reyes stated outright that it was commissioned by the Peruvian government after WWII, and later lost in the jungle.
- And it was also stated in the episode that it emitted a beam powerful enough to melt the rock to embed itself into the wall.
- In short; FitzSimmons screwed up. It was melted into the rock, and it used Tesseract materials as a core, which threw off their estimates.
- Throughout "The Asset", Skye complains that Ward is riding her too hard as her training officer until she comes around to understand why he's putting so much pressure on her. Yet if you look closely at her boxing at the end of the episode her hands are improperly wrapped (i.e. she should have wrapped in between the knuckles not simply around them). Why would Ward not teach her a very basic part of training if he's being such a dick about it?
- Most likely the creators just didn't bother to check the proper technique.
- Or she wasn't paying attention when he did teach her.
- Wrapping between the fingers is the better way to wrap your hands, but it isn't the only way http://www.how-to-box.com/content/how-put-your-hand-wraps-basic-method
- In "The Asset", Ward disarms a man of a double-barrel shotgun. In the few seconds during the scuffle that Ward is offscreen, what sounds like a pump-action shotgun being racked is heard, despite the weapon having no such mechanism. Does anyone know if there is a means by which a double barrel shotgun can make such a sound, or is this simply a production mistake? This troper is inclined to think the latter, but is not very familiar with that particular type of firearm.
- Production mistake. The sound is unmistakably a pump action, and is not something any double barreled shotgun is going to make.
- While pretending to be Akela, how did Ward drive to the building without seeing his hands on the steering wheel or looking into a car mirror?
- He held the bottom of the steering wheel, sat up very tall, and moved the seat as far forward as it would go.
- He actually looked at his hands a few times while talking to that guard and certainly looked at himself while beating him up.
- Also, 'man hands', Skye? Really? That's the worry? Not the fact that Ward's hands are the wrong skin color?
- Also, Akela's backscatter function activated when she closed her eyes. Did the team build a "blink" function into the glasses to briefly turn on the backscatter at appropriate intervals, or did the handler watch "Akela" appear to not blink during her entire mission?
- It might be that the backscatter is already designed not to activate on short intervals such as blinks.
- If you can see yourself in your car mirror while driving, then either you aren't facing the road or the mirror isn't aimed correctly.
- For that matter, how did Akela's handlers never notice the height difference when Ward put on the glasses? Especially when towering over the guard she was meant to seduce.
- Skye says that their backscatter glasses, based on Akela's eye, would allow her to see Fitz and Ward naked. But when Akela uses her backscatter while fighting Melinda, all she sees is a silhouette.
- She either improved the technology or was trolling Fitz.
- Most likely just a case of Rule of Funny.
- It's possible the silohuette was some form of censoring for the audience and Akela really did see May without clothes.
- This seems likely. In the same scene with May, we can see through a bed mattress and a footlocker. And the entire premise of the plot is that Akela could see through briefcases, which are much thicker than clothes. If anything, the images are a little too transparent for Skye to be leering at Ward. They should not only be seeing through clothes, but skin. (Someone write that fanfic.)
- Akela was able to see that the innkeeper had cancer, so the silhouette is probably just there to keep things easy on the audience.
Timeline of the show & films
- So, Joss says the show is "now" in the Marvel Universe, so are they saying that it's something like Avengers = late spring, early summer 2013, Iron Man 3 = Christmas 2013, Thor The Dark World = Roughly same as Iron Man 3, six months after Avengers? Coulson recognizes Extremis and names it in the pilot, but at the end says the person who sold it off is "still out there." We can assume assume he was referring unknowingly to AIM and Killian, but it still seems confusing; how did he know the name unless he knew about AIM?. Wouldn't they mention the events of Iron Man 3 if it had happened already, but if the show is proceeding in real time, maybe they will around Christmas? But if Thor takes place before Iron Man 3, it would seem weird for the government to be so concerned with the Mandarin and not the invasion that looks like it will take place in T:TDW.
- By the time of this show, Killian has been defeated. Someone else recovered his data on extremis and used it.
- Then why no mention of the Mandarin or Air Force One's destruction or Tony Stark's brief "death"? Everyone is talking about New York solely. If S.H.I.E.L.D. knew about Killian they would have said so in the pilot, and the evil doctor implies she got it from people who don't want to be exposed, just like AIM.
- Not wanting to be found does not single out AIM. Not wanting to be exposed includes, well, everyone. They don't talk about Tony Stark's "death" because New York was so much bigger.
- Maybe, but it circumstantially supports AIM ( assuming this is before Iron Man 3). Skye acts like "centipede" is completely new and no one references Killian at all. Just seems like too much of an oversight for them to ignore the events of Iron Man 3 if this takes place afterwards, especially for a show with so many Easter eggs.
- Centipede is new. The series explicitly takes place after Iron Man 3. They're not going to go into a full recap and name a character who's dead and can't possibly be involved in it. Especially when nobody on the show was involved in the movie—Coulson wasn't there, and everyone else is a Canon Foreigner. Just because the show didn't make all the shout outs you expected it to doesn't mean the timeline is screwed up.
- They explicitly named Extremis, which Maya had already named back in 1999. They didn't explicitly refer to any of Iron Man 3's events in the past tense. You're very likely right but it's possible the show has started between Avengers and Iron Man 3. Phase I didn't come out in chronological order, so it's hard to synch up these Phase II films and the show to each other time-wise.
- Extremis only became known in the sense of it being 'healing powers that give you fire powers' during Iron Man 3. Iron Man 3 takes place over the course of, maybe, a week. So unless you're positing that the series takes place during that week, it takes place after Iron Man 3. It does not make sense any other way.
- There is nothing that says Extremis has not been leaked well before the events of Iron Man 3. Killian was researching the product for years, it is fairly certain he had contacted other people and agencies before trying Stark Industries. As for the timeline, it is Post Avengers for sure, and the reason no one mentions the events of Iron Man 3 is that they are not the events that S.H.I.E.L.D. is concerned with. The agency and specifically the agents that the show is following have their mission orders and are following them (mostly). From a narrative perspective, there is no need to mention events that they are not connected to. Why no mention of Killian or AIM? No need/need to know. It is not important to events who developed Extremis, only what it does and how to stop it (or make it more volatile).
- There's nothing that has to say Extremis hasn't been leaked, because it should be plainly obvious by the fact in Iron Man 3 that nobody has any idea what Extremis is. Killian clearly states he built up his own company, he didn't shop it around, and only came to Stark so he could beat down and humiliate Tony in particular. The idea that Extremis was at all known as giving superpowers before Iron Man 3 is just plain faulty. Iron Man 3 is pretty darn clearly the first time anyone, outside of Killian's group, ever realized what Extremis could do.
- Tony and Pepper don't know about it, but Tony's not S.H.I.E.L.D., and Rhodey more or less states that the US government doesn't want S.H.I.E.L.D. interference at the moment. Given S.H.I.E.L.D.'s ability to cover up notable events (like New Mexico, in which extra-terrestrials leveled a small town) it would be relatively easy for them to cover up say, Mike Peterson and with Tony's reclusiveness and PTSD following New York, he may just be behind the times. As Coulson (or was it Maria Hill?) states, he and the other Avengers are not level 7.
- You're grasping at straws now. The very, very, very clear implication in the first episode is this is someone else who somehow got hold of Extremis, not AIM. Killian was playing Extremis very close to the vest, which is plainly and completely obvious from Iron Man 3. He wasn't randomly giving it to people on the street. He had a specific plan, and was giving it to specific people for specific purposes. Everything about Killian and AIM as presented in Iron Man 3 is completely different from how the show is treating Centipede's methods. It is plainly obvious that Centipede is not AIM, and the show takes place after Iron Man 3. Just because they didn't namedrop someone who was, by this point, already dead and couldn't possibly be part of events, doesn't put it in the utterly impossible place in the timeline you want to place it in.
- Utterly impossible? If the writers had wanted it to be so clear they could have easily had a line in the pilot explaining when the show takes place. Melinda May even asks "Who has the tech to do that"-i.e. create a super soldier, and nobody mentions AIM, even though Extremis soldiers were running around all over the place in Iron Man 3. Either the writers were lazy or didn't care about clarifying the post-IM 3 timeline or intentionally wrote the line that way to leave open the other possibility. As for Killian, he wasn't always that close to the vest. AIM had a public website, were the publicly recognized modifiers of Iron Patriot, Savin gave Taggart Extremis in public, and he and Brandt were running around that town in Tennessee wreaking havoc. Also, Killian himself states that there was a presidential ban on biotech enhancement research which AIM had been dodging for years, suggesting that people know such research is being done. How is it utterly impossible that someone in AIM leaked Extremis to Centipede, or that the two groups are one in the same? How can S.H.I.E.L.D. not know about this stuff pre-Iron Man 3? And if it's post Iron Man 3, how can someone have gotten a hold of Killian's data if he's so super secretive, and probably has had S.H.I.E.L.D. or someone confiscate most of his data? And this doesn't even touch on things like Ward's September 2013 ID badge which he obtained in the pilot and the December 23 2013 newspaper date in IM 3.
- Yes, May asks who has the tech—AIM no longer has the tech, because AIM fell apart when Killian died. At this point in the timeline, AIM is a non-entity. S.H.I.E.L.D. knowing everything there is to know about Extremis—remember, part of the reason they recognize it is because the operatives explode eventually—has to place it after Iron Man 3, because it's a major plot point in that movie that nobody knows what Extremis is or how it works. Do you seriously think that S.H.I.E.L.D. would have known that something being developed by a public company with direct ties to the US government gives people superpowers and makes them explode, and would never think to mention it to anybody? Like, say, after all these people who had signed up for experiments with AIM started exploding, which began happening several months before Iron Man 3 takes place? No matter which direction you're coming from, S.H.I.E.L.D. knowing everything about Extremis and how it works before Iron Man 3 makes very little sense.
- Again, S.H.I.E.L.D. had no need to inform the characters in Iron Man 3. They're the relatively secret spy organization which has been rejected by the US government. They don't answer to America or Tony Stark and mentioning Extremis to either of them before Iron Man 3 would have been pointless. The movie happens over a very short time frame so they would have small opportunity to help anyway. As for the exploding, Extremis has been blowing up plants since 1999 and people possibly before the first Iron Man. Just because Tony doesn't know about Extremis before Iron Man 3 doesn't mean S.H.I.E.L.D. couldn't.
- They don't have to "answer to America or Tony Stark." Mentioning Extremis to the US when Extremis people were exploding and killing people all over the US would be the exact and complete opposite of pointless. S.H.I.E.L.D.'s mission is, if there is someone with superpowers, they go out and they do something about it. You're positing that they knew for a fact that these superpowers were out there, that they made people explode, and then out of some kind of petty spite they proceeded to do absolutely nothing about it and let people get killed. You're positing that S.H.I.E.L.D. is acting like complete morons here for no reason.
- What can the US government do to track Extremis soldiers down that S.H.I.E.L.D. can't? Wordof God and Rhodey more or less say that Uncle Sam is beating its chest and trying to show they can handle their own problems. Rhodes rejects Tony's offer to help, saying the situation is American business. If they reject Tony, it's quite possible they'd reject S.H.I.E.L.D., especially if the US blames them for New York. You didn't see S.H.I.E.L.D. calling in the US in that movie, either. And which is less probable, that S.H.I.E.L.D. knows absolutely nothing about Extremis or that they're dealing with it off screen instead of helping the people who explicitly don't want help who they never were shown to call in previously?
- The government can keep track of them if they know about it. And no, Rhodey refusing Tony's help is not at all indicative that they'd refuse S.H.I.E.L.D.'s help, and the suggestion is ridiculous. Tony is a playboy glory-hound millionaire with a smartass and independent streak who figuratively and literally flipped off the US government directly, while S.H.I.E.L.D. is a semi-governmental organization that direction works with the US government already. It's like saying that you'd refuse a cop's help investigating a robbery just because you didn't ask a street thug to help you out. Hell, look at all the trailers for The Winter Soldier—the bits where Nick Fury is meeting with and making a deal with what appears to be a US Government official. Again: The idea that S.H.I.E.L.D. knows all this about Extremis and never once spoke to the US government about the exact problem that is killing people in their country when "Find superpowered people and stop them before they kill someone" is one of the pillars of the organization, is not only ridiculous but paints S.H.I.E.L.D. as grossly incompetent.
- I'm not sure what you mean by keeping track of them if they know about it. You're right about Tony being a jerk, but a S.H.I.E.L.D. fighter jet almost nuked Manhattan, and even people who've worked closely with them blame them for their research on the Tesseract triggering the invasion (Dr. Hall). The US wanting to distance themselves from S.H.I.E.L.D. makes some sense at least. Can't recall S.H.I.E.L.D. working directly with the US, in previous films, though. Iron Man: They claim to be a separate division from American intelligence agencies, and don't work with them directly. TIH: They help Ross track down Banner, but then turn around and put people off his trail. IM 2: They put Tony under house arrest, and Fury clearly has enough pull to twist Stern's arm, but it's still unclear. Thor: S.H.I.E.L.D. handles everything themselves. Ditto TFA and Avengers, except they answer to the WSC, who apparently are comprised of multiple nationalities (maybe a division of Marvel Earth's UN?) Samuel L Jackson said that Robert Redford's character is also one of the WSC, so he may or may not be a US government official. And while I still don't feel it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'll concede for now that you're probably right about it being post-Iron Man 3, although I still feel that some evidence (Ward's ID badge, among other things) hints otherwise.
- Looks like an upcoming episode will deal with Thor 2. Since it doesn't make much sense for Thor 2 to be before IM 3, I guess that confirms the timeline. So maybe Ao S and Thor take place in 2014.
- Why doesn't it make sense for Thor 2 to be after IM 3?
- Sorry, I meant before IM 3. Changed it now.
- They probably just didn't want to get too deep into Canon such that you had Continuity Lock-Out. My interpretation of Joss's quote is less about "it's 2013" and more about "the movies have all happened".
- Thor 2 definitely takes place in between The Hub and The Well. Interviews claim that it takes place a year after Avengers.
S.H.I.E.L.D.'s Earth Defense Policy
- So did S.H.I.E.L.D. just give up on Phase II? They're not gonna study the Tesseract weapon despite the existence of aliens and Norse gods against whom we have no counter save the Avengers? They don't recruit the unemployed guy with Extremis enhancements? who manhandled some of their best agents?
- They had to remove the enhancements from him to keep him from exploding, so he's not going to be worth much as an operative. S.H.I.E.L.D. wants to develop weapons, and the Tesseract weapon they found was deemed too dangerous.
- Who says they won't recruit him? The fourth episode takes place, what, maybe a month after the pilot? He could still be undergoing therapy to come down off the Extremis cocktail and will show up later. And while his powers were unstable in the pilot, there's nothing stopping the writers from coming up with an excuse to let him keep them later. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. can whip up a special injection that will keep him from exploding if he takes it every 6 hours (good way to add suspense if he gets stuck without it on a long mission). Maybe the Extremis cocktail altered his physiology and now he has inborn superpowers. Maybe the Extremis activated his latent metagene or something. People in comic book universes fall backwards into superpowers just like this all the time.
- You have your answer - Mike Petersen was indeed recruited.
- There's no point in studying the Tesseract weapon. They know exactly how it works. Phase II is dead because Tesseract weapons require the Tesseract, which they do not have.
- The videogame Marvel: Avengers Alliance had an interesting idea: what if they reverse-engineer it, and create an artificial one? Sure, it won't work, but it would be dangerous...
- No good. The Tesseract was taken away from them before they even understood how it worked, nevermind reverse-engineering it.
- This option has been well and thoroughly killed by Thor 2, because one does not simply build your own Infinity Gem.
- Earth is fully capable of creating a low-end proto-Tesseract. That's what an arc reactor is. Of course, it's also doubtful that Stark would be willing to provide a batch of reactors small enough to be used in a gun to a group that he knows is going to use them to power weapons.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. did recruit Mike, officially recruited Captain America and seems to make it clear it welcomes superpowered people that want to work for them. That could be their plan for now, since things seem to have blown over for the moment (no massive world ending crisises since the Avengers) and they no longer can weaponize the Tesseract. The show goes alongside the MCU and it's "quiet" for the moment. If it's still running when Avengers 2 is out then maybe we'll see some action on that front.
- As of Item 47, yes, S.H.I.E.L.D. was still pursuing armament of Earth Defense based off reverse-engineering O-8-4s. This was possibly a combination of Nick Fury's vision and HYDRA influence. As later seasons would show, any exotic technology or biology would be co-opted by the team, and developed into tools and weaponry, but R&D takes time and resources. Thus why heavy roll-out of such things is so slow to happen, especially once S.H.I.E.L.D. no longer has unlimited budgets.
The Night-Night Pistol
- Why in the world did Coulson, after seeing the first three or four bullets from the night-night pistol not hit Scorch, continue to fire until he was out of ammo? And why wasn't he carrying a reload? The whole thing just smacks of contrivance.
- Because he might get lucky and one of the bullets will go through. He was wrong, but he didn't have the benefit of Bullet Time to see precisely what was happening. As for the ammo, it's a new gun with a new type of ammo, bullets for it probably aren't cheap.
- Truth in Television: Law enforcement agencies train people to keep firing until either the target goes down or the clip runs dry.
- There are even reported cases of police officers continuing to pull the trigger after they've long since run out of ammo, even when the suspect is already down. Even large amounts of training sometimes isn't enough to overcome basic human instincts.
- The explanations do not work well for a weapon intended to be non-lethal that uses a toxin. Giving a human a dose that will take down an elephant will kill him. If you are going to empty an entire clip into him, you might as well use bullets.
- Except this isn't a normal toxin. It's a magic comic book super-science toxin. For all we know your average human could eat five clips of night-night rounds before dying. It makes exactly as much sense as a billionaire inventing superpowered exo-suit to fight international terrorism.
Let's Blow Him Up!!!
- Why did Coulson and May feel it was necessary to inject Scorch with more Extremis until he blew up, as opposed to just shooting him? Especially considering that by blowing him up, they destroyed much of the facility, and all of the valuable information contained within.
- Nobody is probably quite sure just what it takes to bring down someone with Extremis. In Iron Man 3, it took some kind of massive trauma to actually disable someone, and Killian had to be blown up like three times. So for all they knew, just shooting him wouldn't have worked. But they knew for a fact that blowing him up would finish him.
- In the first episode, they seemed pretty sure that Ward could kill Peterson. However, this time around, they don't have a sniper with a high powered rifle ready to explode the guy's head. I'm uncertain whether a pistol shot to the head would do the trick.
- Don't forget that he made a flame shield that destroyed the shots Coulson shot at him.
- You're also forgetting the part where they had Miles seal the doors in such a way that the fire would take the path of least resistance. They destroyed very little of the building, and they certainly didn't damage the labs or most of the offices.
- Here's another question: Why was their approach, after Instant Sedation failed, to immediate move to lethal tactics? It seems uncharacteristic for the "don't ever tell me there's no other way" guy.
- Because he denied the non-lethal option. Explicitly and repeatedly. He had no need to kill Agent Qwan, no need to reject May's attempts to reconcile, and no need to block the stun bullets. Not to mention that they might not have had any other non-lethal options left. The point is that he decided he didn't want S.H.I.E.L.D.'s help. They tried to help him anyway, but when none of those worked, they knew the choice was between running around looking for another way while he was trying to kill them, or disposing of a nascent supervillain. They chose the latter.
- Further to above, Coulson states outright after the stun bullets failed that it was Scorch's last out. It wasn't anger in his voice, it was dejection - he simply had run out of alternatives.
- It's also summed up in Coulson's last line to him: "We don't want to hurt you... but we have to."
Centipede vs Extremis vs Super Serum etc
- What is the difference between Centipede, Extremis, Super Serum and any other things related to the current mainline macguffin (or is it phlebotinum?) of the show? Centipede seems like the name of the new serum being developed by the as yet unnamed bad guy group. And Extremis and the Super Soldier Serum were simply a part of that new serum. But it seems as of Girl in the Flower Dress, that the organization is named Centipede and people are calling the serum Extremis...
- Extremis is a part of the Centipede serum. Centipede is just the code name for the serum (based on the delivery device seen in the first episode, which is a bracer that looks like a centipede). So when Miles traced Raina and found out she worked for some company researching centipedes, he didn't look farther.
- Based on memory from the first episode: Centipede is the name S.H.I.E.L.D. has given to the secret organization, as they do not have much info on them yet (and because the device resembles a centipede). Apparently, it is a mixture of the three known methods of gaining superpowers in the MCU (gamma radiation, the supersoldier serum, and the Extremis formula), with the device itself being created from Chitauri materials. There was focus on Extremis in "The Girl in the Flower Dress" because it is currently an unstable component, and results in explosions if the test subject cannot regulate its usage effectively.
- Actually, IIRC, they identified the serum in the pilot saying it contained gamma radiation, alien metal and an Erskine-esque formula before Coulson named it as Extremis. It's possible that it is just Extremis and they're only now explaining what's inside it.
- No, because Extremis is established in Iron Man 3 as having nothing at all to do with any of those, having been developed completely independently before half of those things came to light.
- Coulson was identifying the Erskine-esque formula as Centipede. The "Centipede Serum" includes EVERYTHING the people had. Gamma irradiated Extremis within a Chitauri bracer. Very unrefined. As said earlier.
- If the Englishman was being controlled by the same ocular implant then presumably all his orders came to him by being typed out in the same way. If so why would he bother changing the wording to British English. I'd understand automatically putting extra 'U's in words such as color/colour but completely changing the words he sees typed out into their British equivalents (trunk to boot) seems unlikely. Basically I'm saying that the assumption about him being English should not have payed off and yet he was revealed to be a former mi6 agent. (Perhaps I've just taken the logic one step further and discovered that the person next up the chain is also English, if so S.H.I.E.L.D. can hire me as a consultant.)
- We don't know what his orders were. It could have been as simple as "Retrieve this; these are the assets you have to do it." Then he'd come up with the majority of the plans himself. There's no need to have him directly puppeteered by another handler. That would be far too inefficient, and it would take too long for orders to trickle down the chain of command.
- Fridge Brilliance: The Englishman's espionage experience and skill at on-the-fly improvisation is probably why they "recruited" him in the first place.
Chan's blood platelets
- Is removing all of a person's blood platelets even a thing? Is that even possible?
- Apparently it is, via a method called apheresis which siphons off the desired blood product and returns the rest to the patient.
- Some people who donate blood only donate platelets. It has the advantage of a much smaller recuperation time before you can donate again - generally 2 weeks instead of 8 for full blood.
- Yeah, but...all their platelets? Without filtering every drop of blood through some sort of platelet-removing machine, how would that even work? And wouldn't Chan's body start producing new platelets after a while?
- The Centipede group clearly wasn't worried about him surviving the process, so yes, they took all his platelets (or enough that it made no difference). And as noted above, he'd be back to normal after a couple weeks. It's just that S.H.I.E.L.D. found him after a couple minutes. He simply didn't have time to replenish his platelet count.
- If you don't care about the patient's survival, just take all the blood and leave. You can centrifuge out all the platelets later, and the rest of the blood might be useful. Putting it back is really nice for an organization that basically left him for dead. Giving him back the platelet-less blood only makes sense if you plan to lock him up and keep him as a resource, since those platelets come back.
- Think about it. They have him locked in a sterile place. Of course they'd keep him alive. Then, when he produces more platelets, he can be drained again... and again... and again... Nightmare Fuel of the Fridge Horror variety, isn't it?
- They can't have taken all of his platelets because even after the operation when he was no longer fully immune to the burning, he was still handling it rather well. Especially when he pumps out enough fire/heat to turn the doctor woman into a pile of ash without turning his own arms into ash as well.
- Bear in mind, this was after he was treated with the Centipede cocktail. We know from Mike that one of its benefits is fast healing; I suspect what was happening was that Chan's powers were burning him, and his new regenerative capacity was healing the damage. Thus he could still function without incapacitating himself from burns, but it now hurt like hell.
- Makes sense.
- So we're led to assume that Skye is someone we shouldn't trust and Whedon does this all the time. But Coulson's role in this is odd. It goes against his character on a very fundamental level to distrust people or the group he's trying to build. If he wants his own Avengers, and bring this young woman—who has been trying and building a close connection—him acting in this manner is very much against his nature. May and Ward? Certainly. Not Coulson.
- She betrayed his trust by acting as a mole and warning a suspect (who turned out to be guilty) that they were coming after him. Anger at betrayal is far from uncommon. There's a reason most murders are committed by friends and family members. Note though, that the second she showed him the reason she distrusted S.H.I.E.L.D., he turned around, let her stay on the team, and even agreed to help her find what she was looking for. The bracelet is the equivalent of grounding a teenage girl for sneaking out to a party with booze and boys.
- The bracelet is certainly a grounding, but it's more than that. It comes with connotations of loss of free-will, that your thoughts and feelings are not your own. This is not the right time for Coulson to be playing Big Brother, this is the time for Coulson to be the hero we know him to be. And you're saying its a simple reprimand without weight behind it, but if one of the other characters had pulled something like this off, I seriously doubt they'd be getting watched from on-high. They're with S.H.I.E.L.D., she isn't.
- You're forgetting that both Skye and Miles have committed numerous accounts of computer fraud and related crimes, and Miles could possibly get hung up as an accessory to kidnapping or murder. Skye's (and Miles') punishment really is a simple reprimand, because the very likely alternative is being behind bars for a really long time with no freedom. Him giving her no punishment at all just isn't remotely realistic.
- This. Coulson specifically tells Miles, "You can take what's in this box, or we can put you in a slightly bigger box" — i.e., wear the bracelet or they'll put him in prison. As for Skye: Yes, she has a tragic backstory. But she also just admitted to joining the team under false pretenses, in order to act as a mole for an openly antagonistic organization. Coulson's main job is to take care of the team she betrayed. Part of that job is ensuring that there are consequences for that kind of thing. Keeping her on the team at all and offering to help her was being "the hero we know him to be". He is compassionate. He is also a professional.
- Also, don't forget that Coulson never actually says to her 'put on this bracelet as your punishment.' He brings the box into the room, puts it down on his desk, and never even refers to it. Skye put it on herself, without any prompting.
- I have a bit of a gripe with what Coulson was expecting from Skye. I know he's portrayed as idealistic, but did Skye at any point mention that she had cut ties with Rising Tide?
- Generally speaking, if you willingly join with one covert group, you're kinda sorta expected to stop working with the covert group that's explicitly working against the one you just joined.
- Plus he found out Skye had ulterior motives for joining other than wanting to help people and see strange stuff. He was initially furious, apprantly assuming she was working to take down S.H.I.E.L.D.. If that was true he'd likely have tossed her, but her reason, wanting to find out the truth about her family was innocent enough for him to accept she meant no harm. Same with the Hub. If she was just impatient/selfish to get to the parent looking that she'd try hacking S.H.I.E.L.D. as soon as she could, Coulson would have booted her off the team, but since her reason for hacking the database was because she was worried for Fitz and Ward, he accepted it, especially since this ended up saving them. The Bracelet was probably something he needed to have used to justify not tossing her, and to make sure she wasn't lying. Once it was clear she really WAS the relatively good person she appeared to be and went above and beyond the call of duty to save Coulson he took it off, seemingly satisfied that he made the right choice. As did the rest of the team, as even May seemed to finally start trusting her.
- I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear. My gripe isn't so much with Coulson being angry, so much as how he didn't suspect it or anticipate any risks.
The makeup of the crew
- Why doesn't the main team have a medic?
- It would be very surprising if Ward, May and Coulson didn't have at least some training in field medicine. And Simmons is a biochemist, so poisons and things like that are pretty well covered — and she's proven able to perform complex and delicate surgery under less-than-ideal conditions.
- Based on her performance in FZZT it would seem that Simmons is indeed a medical doctor in addition to being a biochemist.
- But why would a medical doctor have so much trouble injecting someone with a syringe? (As seen in "Eye Spy").
- It wasn't injecting someone with a syringe she had trouble with. It was injecting it into her eyeball.
- And Simmons spent most of her time in the lab before joining the team. She's like a medical intern who has suddenly been thrown into an ER. It's not surprising she would be squeamish about operating on a real live person's eyeball, while a bomb is also ticking down. EDIT: Also, during that scene Simmons specifically says that ocular surgery is not something she's trained for. So in addition to the ticking clock and her general inexperience, Simmons was also being called on to perform a procedure she was never trained to do. If you asked a heart surgeon to perform brain surgery he'd probably be equally nervous.
- Simmons is probably not technically a medical doctor. A medical degree is not just passing classes, it is, at minimum, three years of residency and other hands-on training. She'd probably that would suck up years of valuable time she could be doing research. She might have the knowledge, but she's never 'practiced medicine', at least not beyond some basic medic training.
- It's made pretty explicit in-universe that Simmons isn't a medical doctor: she's consistently referred to as having two Ph.D.s, not a Ph.D. and an M.D., and I'm sure the writers have done enough research to know the difference. My guess is S.H.I.E.L.D. thought three field agents with at least some emergency medical experience and a highly skilled biochemist would be capable of keeping anyone alive long enough to get them to a medical facility - which is exactly what they end up doing/trying to do in most cases when someone gets badly hurt. While it seems irresponsible at first thought, you've got to remember that Coulson's team clearly weren't expecting to get into nearly as many life-threatening situations without additional agents sent in for specialist work and back-up as they eventually do.
Is Coulson's survival supposed to be a big secret?
- In the first episode, it's stated that only level 7 and higher agents know Coulson is alive. Ward doesn't find out until he gets promoted, and the Avengers don't know because "they're not level 7." In every episode after that, Coulson doesn't seem to care about keeping his survival a secret, and The Hub reveals that Simmons is only level 5. So is it a secret or not?
- It was a level 7 secret, but it appears it's not quite as big a deal now. The main point is keeping it a secret from the Avengers, and maybe limiting his exposure in case the dark secret behind his resurrection turns out to be something dangerous.
- Also, Coulson stated that he didn't want to manage his team without all that red tape (secrets).
- Ward says that at level 6, he knew Coulson died which implies that at lower levels, there are people who don't know he died at all.
- It's not that people below didn't know he died—what Ward's saying is he's got really high security clearance so he should know if Coulson survived.
- To elaborate further, assuming S.H.I.E.L.D. follows a similar system to the US, your security clearance (Level 1-8) determines what information you may access, but it does not mean you will get all information at that level. So, Coulson's survival is Level 7, which means that any agents below that level will not be privy to those details, and Level 7 and above agents will be privy to the fact that Coulson survived.
- For the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents that Coulson is openly interacting with, they are probably Level 7 or otherwise authorised for that information; for example, Kwan is suggested to be fairly high up, and Sitwell is implied to be a Level 8 like Coulson, Victoria Hand, and the team at the Hub.
- As for Simmons (and presumably Fitz as well) who's Level 5, this means that she'd be restricted from ever getting any information on Coulson's survival by normal means. However, given that Coulson recruited Fitz-Simmons to his team, while they're still Level 5 agents, they've been read in on Coulson's survival - this information has been made known to them because it is deemed necessary in order for them to carry out their duties.
- It makes sense with what Maria Hill said about the Avengers not being level 7 even though Captain America was seen looking at files on the Tesseract that were labeled level 7. He already knew about, so he probably got special clearance for those files but nothing else at that level.
- More importantly if his death was really supposed to be a big secret then he should be holed away somewhere where nobody can find him and only Level 7 and above can read the paperwork proving he's still alive. Or if he's such an important asset that he has to keep working then stick him with Fury on the Helicarrier with high level agents and those sworn to secrecy about it. Having running around all over the globe in plain sight and talking to people kind of invalidates the super secret. Let alone having him walk around S.H.I.E.L.D. central in plain view of all personel regardless of clearance. People will notice. It would be one thing if they changed his apperance and gave him a new ID but he's still walking around in plain sight and going by Phil Coulson.
- No point. Captain America fought in the Battle of New York. His heroism was hugely public, with cops taking orders from him to get people to safety, and even him personally saving a group of people holed up in a building - afterward, a woman even thanks him for saving her on a newscast. The fact that Captain America (and for those who know his identity, Steve Rogers) is alive is public knowledge. No amount of clearance level is going to keep that a secret. The goal here is to keep Coulson a secret from Steve, and all S.H.I.E.L.D. has to do there is make sure Coulson and Rogers never have a mission in the same place together.
- That brings up another very important point though. Now that The Black Widow has released all the information on S.H.I.E.L.D. wouldn't all the Avengers know that Coulson's alive?
- Skye deleted all their info before anyone could notice.
- Back in The Consultant, Sitwell was Level 6, and was surprised to find out about the existence of Level 7. Then we see him again in The Hub, and he is already Level 8. This is supposed to take place around 2 years later. How did he advance so fast?
- Considering the casualties S.H.I.E.L.D. suffered at the hands of Loki as well as their operations being expanded, him being promoted to take on more responsibilities as an experienced agent makes sense.
- Also Sitwell appeared Item 47 as a level 7 agent, so he was probably promoted soon after The Consultant to level 7 then promoted to level 8 after the Avengers.
- It could be that before the Battle of New York, the highest commonly known level was 6, with people like Coulson and Hand secretly Level 7, and Commander Hill and Director Fury at Levels 8 and 9, respectively. Once knowledge of aliens and such became wide spread, there would have been a need for even higher security clearances. note This would make sense seeing as how the theft of the Tesseract only rated a Level 7 while later on the Overkill device was a Level 8. Also, Sitwell never said what his rating was in The Hub. He seems to be working under Agent Hand now, so he might still only be a Level 7, much like May and Ward, but he's higher up on the Level 7 pecking order because of who his superior officer is.
- If you still think Sitwell was advancing too fast then Winter Soldier pretty much clears that right up Sitwell being devout member of HYDRA and HYDRA pretty much controlling S.H.I.E.L.D., hence devout members get advancements to high places.
The Norse-Pagan Transportation
- How did the Norse Pagans travel from Oslo to Sevilla, with their entire group, despite being sighted and identified in Oslo and thus logically expected for the authorities to be informed and airports on a lookout, and than from Sevilla to Ireland again with no delay and even faster than the Bus?
- A group claiming responsibility =/= individual members are known and identified everywhere.
- "Hey, you! Super-powered freaks, you are under arrest!" What do you think will happen next?
- The members were identified, and logically their images and names would be handed to everyone. Also unless they can fly a plane themselves or hijacked one, the latter just making them easy targets, they would still be kept from leaving Norway or Spain.
- What I'm wondering is how they can have their faces plastered all over international television with the word "TERRORIST" underneath, yet they're able to walk nonchalantly down a public street in Europe. It's like if Osama bin Laden took a stroll through Los Angeles and nobody noticed. You'd think somebody would have called the cops on them.
- There's a difference: Bin Laden was just a man, like anyone else, and a well placed bullet would take him down like anyone else. Those guys are something else. Who says that the cops were not sent against them? Surely they were sent, and were disposed of in 5 seconds.
- Then you send more cops. And then some more cops. And if that doesn't work, escalate to an armored division. I'm not saying they would have succeeded, I'm asking why they apparently didn't even bother to try. And if these guys are really so dangerous that the government is afraid to send law enforcement after them, why haven't the streets been cleared? Why is the government allowing completely defenseless civilians to walk into the path of these dangerous superpowered terrorists?
- In a normal world, maybe. In the MCU, there's a point past which you step back and say, "Let's just let S.H.I.E.L.D. take this one, guys." That said...I'm still struggling to remember where it's ever said that individual members of this group are named and identified by the authorities.
- I don't know if they were named, but their faces were clearly shown on international television and they were identified as the ringleaders of the neo-pagan terrorist group. EDIT: Also, I'm not saying we should have had scenes of cops being murdered in droves by the terrorists. It does make sense that the local authorities would have pulled back and let the military and/or S.H.I.E.L.D. handle it (although a scene where they established this would have been nice). What bothers me is all the other people who were just nonchalantly milling around the streets with a pair of internationally-known terrorists standing right in plain sight. Like I said, it's like if Osama bin Laden walked down a street in LA and nobody even noticed he was there. At the very least the people on the streets should have been pointing and running at the sight of them. And the cops may not be able to take these guys in a fight, but they can still clear the streets to minimize civilian casualties.
The Asgardian guy
- If that Asgardian guy is trying to stay in Earth without attracting attention, why the hell does he have a steady job? Sure, it's not a high profile work as being a superhero or a film star, but it gets people to know him on a regular basis. And it won't take much more than a decade for people to notice that he does not age, that time passes and he stays the same, and what will he say? He will have to Un-person himself and begin again in another place, all the time. In the middle ages it was easy, he just had to leave the city, go to another a pair of countries away, and that's it. But now, with all the systems of identification and public databases, it's not such an easy thing. In fact, several secret organizations may notice the pattern: someone appears from out of nowhere at X place, and strangely dissapears a few years later, same thing at Y place after it, same thing at Z place after it... and all those guys are very similar. It won't take long before they would realize that there is an immortal running around.
- While there is a risk, it's more like 10-20 years each time, not a few years. He's old enough that lack of aging is less noticeable until many years have passed, especially since it's not odd for people to look younger than they really are. Heck, a quick check shows that Peter MacNicol is 59 while the professor looks more like he's in his 40s. And it's not that odd for someone to find a new job or new stomping grounds every 10-20 years or so. His only flaw was more the bad luck of posing as a Norse mythology expert right when Asgardians decided to return out of the blue, making him more known to S.H.I.E.L.D. this time around.
- And even if the government catches on to him, what does he have to fear from them? We're talking about a guy who can bend steel with his bare hand and bounce back from a three inch hole in his chest. God only knows what else he can do. Unless they sic the Avengers on him (which they probably won't do, since S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't consider him a threat) I dare say he can handle almost anything they can throw at him.
- The key words: he's an alien. A human-like alien, an alien with technology and biological properties that were considered magical or divine by ancient folks, but an alien nonetheless. Do I really have to explain why would the government be interested in capturing him?
- Interested? Sure. Able to? Not so sure.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. still has that weapon that Coulson used against Loki, right?
- Probably, but S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't interested in killing or capturing him and they wouldn't just hand over the weapon to anyone that might be.
- Why not? It was a main point of The Avengers that S.H.I.E.L.D. considers the Asgardians a potential threat. And with good reason. So, the knowledge of the Asgardian anatomy, and how to be able to kill an Asgardian would be invaluable strategic info. Yes, this Asgardian poses no threat to anyone, but S.H.I.E.L.D. must watch the bigger picture. What if for some reason two Asgardians begin to battle themselves in a populated area here on Earth? And what if an Asgardian tries to use his might to take over the world, or just cause random senseless destruction? Oh, wait... both things have already happened.
- And it's a main point of the whole MCU that S.H.I.E.L.D. is not the kind of organization that's going to capture an innocent, non-threat person and experiment on them against their will.
- According to whom? Let me quote:
Nick Fury: We're going to neutralize a lot of threats before they happen.
Captain America: Punishment usually came after the crime.
Nick Fury: S.H.I.E.L.D. takes the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't stupid. This guy isn't interested in taking over the world, and they know this, and even if he was he doesn't have the resources to even try. He is categorically not a threat and never going to be a threat. In fact he's the exact opposite of a threat. He's a valuable asset who can provide lots of valuable intelligence if they treat him fairly. You seem to have completely misjudged what kind of organization S.H.I.E.L.D. is if you think they would happily abduct and vivisect this guy just to find out the best way to kill an Asgardian.
- In fairness Simmons did suggest vivisecting him, but she was in giddy Mad Scientist mode. They never would have actually allowed it.
- Every mention of The List suggests that he would not be detained, just kept under watch. S.H.I.E.L.D. does monitor for potential threats, but it would be crazy to assume the guy that has been running around for centuries with only one historical blip is going to decide to take over the world. It would also mean angering Thor if he ever found out. "Sure, Thor, you can see your Asgardian brother. He's right here, here, there, and some of him is down the hall."
- Should I remind you that we talk about the S.H.I.E.L.D. that created weapons of mass destruction from the tesseract?
- Which is irrelevant. Creating weapons out of a power source is not related at all to kidnapping an innocent person and vivisecting him just to find a way to kill him.
- There is also the possible issue that Asgard knows he is on Earth and at this time doesn't care since he isn't causing any trouble. If S.H.I.E.L.D. were to capture and start experimenting on him for no reason that wouldn't sit well with Asgard or Thor. Thor did not react well when he found out humans were experimenting with the Tesseract since it implies Earth is ready to stand on its own. If he were to find out an organization he (Thor) were allied with and experimenting on his own people how could he convince Asgard to maintain protective of Earth. It might very well decide with withdraw and allow the other realms to start attacking Earth which is worse in the long run.
- ...why would not having a job make him less suspicious? How is that even supposed to work? The cover that he was under was perfect enough that S.H.I.E.L.D. didn't even notice anything wrong with any background checks they ran. (Coulson realized it from his psychological responses and his pen.)
- The real question about that Asgardian guy is why, if he hadn't wanted the Berserker Staff to ever be found, he didn't move its pieces elsewhere after he'd stupidly blabbed about its location to some French girl? He had five hundred years in which to retrieve the pieces from the tree, monastery and burial site, and stash them in places that had nothing to do with the legend.
- The Asgardian staff has "INSPIRE", "RAGE", "FIGHT" and "POWER" engraved onto it in Futhark runes. Why on earth would it have (modern) English words on it?
- I don't understand the question. Do you think that "inspire", "rage", fight" or "power" are modern concepts that the ancient folks could not understand?
- What he means is that the Futhark runes are phonetically spelling the English words themselves, and not their Norse equivalents. So instead of whatever the actual Norse word for "Inspire" would be, it's instead the rune for the "i" sound, the rune for the "n" sound, the rune for the "s" sound, etc.
- See the other wiki for a description of runes, which are an actual alphabet. If you saw someone reading "an I", "an N" and so on, it's a translator of runes "explaining" his work for the laymen who does not have a clue on what is he really doing (wich is both the other characters, and us spectators; just as in the episode, only a specialist would actually understand runes)
- Yes, we know what runes are. The original question is not about the guy explaining what runes are, because he doesn't do that in the episode. The original question is saying that the ancient Asgardian staff—which was made long before the English language—has runes on it that, phonetically, spell out words that did not exist until centuries later.
- It's a Genius Bonus gag that probably didn't have a lot of thought put into it. Someone just thought it'd be a cool idea for the design, so they did it.
- Another in-story explanation is... Asgardians in the MCU speak English. If the original leaked script of Thor is still canon, that's not just Translation Convention, either, as Fandral responds to Darcy's question about how they (the Asgardians) are speaking our (human English-speakers') language by saying something along the lines of "My dear, you are speaking our language."
- Where the hell were Ward's parents when he was growing up? I mean, I can understand them dismissing the occasional fistfight between brothers as a sort of "Boys will be boys" thing. But the things his oldest brother was doing? No parent can ignore or dismiss that.
- From later episodes, it appears as if Ward came from a wealthy messed up family a la the Kennedys. His older brother was a bully who tormented Ward and their youngest brother, even forcing Ward to abuse their brother. Their parents were probably blind to it all and, according to Ward's description of them, probably harsh disciplinarians when they did pay attention to their children. Ward apparently started acting out and instead of trying to figure out why, his parents sent him to military school, where he apparently snapped and tried to set fire to his family home while his older brother was in it. He was caught, jailed, and his parents were going to have him prosecuted. This was where Garret found Ward and used Ward's need for a semi-sympathetic authority figure to manipulate the young man into becoming a sleeper agent.
- It's possible they weren't aware of it beforehand and might been told by the older brother it was an accident, as we didn't see what happened afterwards.
- Unfortunately, parents can and do dismiss that kind of behavior, and for a variety of reasons — straight-up denial being one of the most common. It's not uncommon at all for an entire family to be aware that one member is abusing another, and to do and say absolutely nothing about it.
- Knowing that Ward is actually a member of HYDRA, it is possible that his entire family were members as well. That could explain his parents' not punishing the elder Ward brother.
- The brothers may have grown up in the foster care system, which is usually depicted as uncaring on TV.
- Doubtful. He likely would have brought it up when Skye mentioned she was in foster care.
- Ward also later says his parents were "even worse." They might not have cared that their oldest son was abusing his brothers if they were doing it too.
- This was indeed the case, as revealed in "The Things We Bury". Ward's younger brother was the only one their parents didn't abuse, and that's why his older brother hated the kid.
- What could possibly be the advantage of not telling your field operatives they'll need to extract themselves? Coulson was spot-on when he told off Agent Hand; when people like Romanov & Barton go on no-extraction missions, they're told in advance, so when the time comes, they aren't completely clueless on how they're going to get out. I understand & appreciate how security levels & need-to-know policies work, but it's one thing not to tell an spy what's in the file he's stealing, and quite another not to tell him whether or not they'll have help escaping with the file. Who needs-to-know that more than the guy going in!? That wasn't Classified Information; that was Poor Communication Kills.
- That whole bit was a tad odd. She had no real reason not to tell them, but at the end of the episode when she's talking to Sitwell she seemed to imply she knew Coulson would go after them regardless.
- I thought the point was for them to die. It was a suicide mission from the start. If they can get themselves out on their own that's a nice bonus, but they weren't expected to come back.
- See the Batman Gambit entry on the main page. She was counting on Coulson's team finding out about the lack of extraction and providing their own. They do have the Cavalry with them, after all.
- That doesn't make much sense either. If the plan was always for Coulson's team to provide the extraction, why didn't they just tell Coulson's team about it? That way they would have had time to carefully concoct an extraction plan that was sure to work, instead of having to slap together a last-minute improvised plan that had a very good chance of failing catastrophically.
- The purpose was convincing Fitz that the whole thing was planned out, because their mission relied on sending a non-com into a combat situation. Fitz is not a hardened soldier. Telling him that there is a full plan for getting in and out gave him a sense of security in the mission. If he'd known that once the mission was complete, he was going to be SOL, it would have affected his ability to perform his job. Even Ward recognized this; he waited until Fitz was almost done before mentioning that they're screwed. For Ward, he's been played up to be the badass that Romanov and Barton are; an assumption was made that he can recognize what needs to be done and get himself out alive. For Fitz, either Ward can get him out alive, or he won't; Fitz is Level 5. He's kind of expendable. It's cold and kind of cruel, but that's the calculus that an officer like what we've seen Hand to be like would make.
- That would make plenty of sense if Ward had been told, but he hadn't. It just appeared that he had figured it out on his own right at that moment. As is, Ward & Fitz's only hope of survival was the rest of the team defying orders to find & retrieve them. Which Hand seemed to be counting on. Which is idiotic, unless the whole freaking hierarchy of S.H.I.E.L.D. (save Fury & maybe Hill) is out to get Coulson.
- Except if Ward had been told he might have told Fitz, defeating the purpose of keeping Fitz in the dark. As for Hand apparently having expected Coulson and team to save the day, she had probably not told them about the lack of extraction as a test of the team's resourcefulness. She wanted to know if these relatively untested agents and non-agent were as good as Coulson claimed. Maybe a little professional jealousy was mixed in, too, based on her referring to Coulson as Fury's "favorite" and acting as if his assignment on the Bus isn't important. What she did wasn't nice, ethical, and quite possibly broke a few S.H.I.E.L.D. codes of conduct, but she wouldn't be the first person ever to abuse a position of power.
- That would mean Hand was willing to waste the lives of two valuable S.H.I.E.L.D. agents for no good reason. If this was all a "test" for Coulson's team it goes way beyond unethical or against S.H.I.E.L.D. regulations. It was straight up reckless and stupid, and brushes up against downright evil.
- Another case in point: Skye shouldn't have hacked into the database in the first place. She wouldn't have had access full stop if it hadn't have been for Simmons. What if Skye had decided to do the right thing, or Simmons hadn't been as worried? Ward would have probably survived, but Fitz probably wouldn't have made it out. So, why not tell Coulson that he has to provide Ward and Fitz with extraction because all other assets are needed elsewhere? This would have meant that Ward and Fitz would know exactly what they should expect for the extraction (a big hovering plane), so they would have also been able to get to a more suitable extraction point on time. Also, Hand wouldn't have had a very understandably angry Coulson barge in during the middle of a major operation, Simmons wouldn't be as worried about Fitz, and Skye wouldn't have tried to hack into the S.H.I.E.L.D. Database. Agent Hand is not a good right hand to have.
- Additionally, consider what Coulson and co. had to do in order to extract their people. Skye illegally hacked the S.H.I.E.L.D. database (again). Simmons assaulted a senior S.H.I.E.L.D. agent and broke into a secure area. Coulson willfully disobeyed a direct order and committed a very public act of insubordination. And May went AWOL to rescue Ward and Fitz. In most military organizations these are court martial offenses (and in Skye's case would normally have landed her in federal prison). Every member of Coulson's team, and Coulson himself, had to basically break the law in order to extract Ward and Fitz. If that was the plan all along, then that's a fucking terrible plan.
- It could be that Agent Hand was running a gambit to try to gain ammunition to use against the team at a later date. The first half of season one showed that the characters on The Bus operate with a high level of autonomy within S.H.I.E.L.D. and that Coulson's way of running his team is starting to rub some people the wrong way. This promo seems to show Hand coming in to run the team during Coulson's absence. She might use the incident in South Ossetia to her advantage here and try and bring the characters more in line with S.H.I.E.L.D. doctrine.
- Well given the reveal that Hand is either HYDRA, working for the Clairvoyant, or IS the Clairvoyant, this suddenly makes a lot more sense. The plan was stupid because she was likely trying to get Ward and Fitz killed, while using acceptable losses as an excuse. That's also probably why she was being so obstructive when it came to helping get Coulson back. She didn't want him returned.
- Now an unreveal. Hand was loyal all along, but apparently suspected Coulson. This makes her actions in retrospect somewhat understandable; rather than carrying the Idiot Ball and/or the Conflict Ball this whole time, she thought that Coulson was a traitor and his entire team was compromised, but lacked the evidence to make a formal accusation. Hence her actions not to get them outright killed, but to leave them in situations where they had to keep themselves from getting killed. Once the civil war in S.H.I.E.L.D. began she ended up on the right side. Kinda makes you feel bad that Ward shot her dead, doesn't it?.
- Wait doesn't that imply Hand was perfectly willing to send two people into a situation that could get them killed, because of a hunch that was wrong?
- Truth in Television for the espionage world. Sad to say, spies are hung out to dry all the time by their own side for reasons no better than this. Ward was capable of dealing with it, Fitz not so much. Also, her hunch wasn't 100% wrong; Coulson's team is infiltrated. It's just not Coulson who's with HYDRA. And Coulson did lead the Clairvoyant to TAHITI. And if Coulson hadn't saved Garrett from the drone attack at the beginning of the episode, the Clairvoyant would have been killed right then. Oops.
- If Victoria Hand's plan was to sabotage Coulson's team because she thought he was the Clairvoyant then why didn't she try to have the team arrested. I mean, Skye had hacked a government database, Simmons shot a superior officer, albeit non-fatally, and Coulson went AWOL. All these things could have Coulson and his team some major jail-time. Hand missed a perfectly good opportunity to take down someone who she thought was the leader of a terrorist organization.
- Maybe she did try that, but Fury protected Coulson. Or maybe she knew Fury was protecting Coulson already, so this was basically a zany scheme to either get some of Coulson's traitorous team killed, or have them do illegal reckless things that would cause others to realize something was wrong with Fury protecting them. (Hell, maybe she thought Fury was the Clairvoyant.)
Mike and Centipede
- So it's been firmly established now that the group developing Centipede technology are the same group that nabbed Akela. And it seems like it's standard procedure for them to give their "recruits" an eyeball bomb to enforce cooperation. Why didn't they do that to Mike? As the only Centipede test subject to actually survive the early stages of development, he seems like a pretty valuable asset that they'd want to keep on a tight leash.
- Mike only survived the early stages of development because S.H.I.E.L.D. grabbed him. Before then, he was set to explode like anyone else.
- Okay, but while he was a test subject, Mike was still just out there in the world, living his normal everyday life...with experimental weapons technology implanted in him. The Centipede group didn't seem to be monitoring him other than regularly scheduled check-ins with his doctor. That seems awfully lax in comparison to their behavior later on.
- Eyeball implants may be expensive, so they didn't want to waste it on a test subject who was unlikely to survive long enough to be an actual asset. Or alternatively, something in the Centipede process was believed to interfere with the eyeball implants, but now they've fixed that bug.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. was barely aware of Centipede before the events of the Pilot. The lab explosion plus Mike's very public superheroics focused S.H.I.E.L.D.'s attention on them, and Coulson's team proved surprisingly adept at hunting them. The bionic eyes are an extra precaution now that Coulson and co. are dogging Centipede's steps.
- In "Eye Spy", we only saw eyeball implants in characters without Centipede serum: Akela and the Englishman. We don't see actual Centipede soldiers with eyeball implants until "The Bridge", well after the serum is stabilized. Centipede didn't want to waste their time putting the implants into people who could still explode all on their own at any moment.
Centipede and treason
- Given that Ward knows that Centipede is in the habit of wiring their soldiers to self-destruct, why does he automatically decide that Peterson being with Centipede is a sign of treason rather than considering that he might be acting under duress due to being wired to blow?
- I see two reasons. 1st-Same reason Akelah was still getting the book thrown at her. Mike was a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent trainee. One of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s rules is likely not to assist known enemies under duress, EVEN with the penalty of death. Remember S.H.I.E.L.D. agents are expected to die for the cause if needed, so it would probably be expected that Mike should have defied Centipede and gotten his head blown up. Added to the fact that he's seemingly doing their bidding to see his son again, which they'd already established was a potential conflict of interest. S.H.I.E.L.D. agents are expected to put the mission before family, and family is discouraged. That's why they prefer people like Skye who have no family as their favored recruits, and even Coulson lost his father by the time he was an adult and deliberately chose not to have a family for the sake of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Coulson even said Mike would have to make a choice, and he did, he chose his son over S.H.I.E.L.D. and what they swore to protect. The other example is the same reason Fitz was willing to kill every Centipede agent in their way to get Coulson back, even though he knew it wasn't really their fault. It was personal because one of their own was involved. Mike chose not to help Skye and she was nearly killed as a result, and Ward took that personally. Yes it's somewhat selfish and hypocritical of Ward to think like that, but he and the team (except Skye so far) already have shown they value their own higher than others, when they were willing kill Quinn if Skye died, and they went against orders and killed those Guest House guards to save her. Plus Ward never really liked Mike to start with. He was weary of him, and Mike blew their second chance they gave him by turning on the team for his own personal interests. It's might be hard to remember because Ward is usually with the team, who he likes and trusts, but Ward isn't exactly Mr. Sympathetic to people he doesn't really know.
- On the other hand, it seemed like Mike could have killed Skye himself when Quinn told him to, but was allowed to choose not to kill her since it wasn't a direct order from his eyepiece. Having just woken up from stasis, he might not even have known that Quinn would shoot Skye after he left the room.
- His orders were to kill the other people, not Skye, and he has to obey them. A moot point though because Quinn had a gun, and announced intentions to hurt her, so Mike was still leaving Skye captive and unarmed in a room with Quinn. It was common sense they were going to hurt her. So Ward's point still stands. Mike left Skye at the mercy of a guy who had a grudge against her with a gun, to go do the Clairvoyant's dirty work to save his own skin instead, when he could have taken Quinn out with one punch before his implant killed him. Mike wouldn't have known that Quinn would only slowly fatally wound her so Coulson would go looking for his miracle cure, but that only makes it worse as he would have expected Quinn to shoot her in the head and kill her.
- Let's think about that for a second. Mike crunchitizes Quinn's head, his handler blows him eye implant, which means that he can't stop Quinn's bodyguards from shooting Skye anyway. And then the Clairvoyant's other agents kill Ace in retribution. Or kill Ace, show Mike the video, then blow his implant. Killing Quinn doesn't really help him at the moment.
"An 0-8- 4 supercedes all national claims."
- That line from the second episode puzzles me. If it was some weird quasi-magical artifact that fell from the sky like Thor's hammer, then it would make sense that S.H.I.E.L.D. gets dibs. But how can the Peruvian government have no claim to an object they personally commissioned?
- They never admitted they had it commissioned, and given who they tapped to do it, they wouldn't exactly look good for doing so.
- Okay, maybe the 0-8-4 in Peru is a bad example. What I mean is, in general, what gives S.H.I.E.L.D. the authority to simply ignore the wishes of a sovereign nation? Unless I'm mistaken "0-8-4" just means "we don't know what this thing is or what it does". Does S.H.I.E.L.D. really have the authority to drop into any sovereign nation and take any unknown object they find? Even if that nation built it themselves?
- S.H.I.E.L.D. answers to the World Security Council, which has the authority to do things like launch nuclear weapons at a major American city in minutes without, apparently, going through any of the US Government's regular channels. So, yes, it seems that S.H.I.E.L.D. has exactly that much authority. Also, the 0-8-4 doesn't just mean S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't know what it is—it means nobody knows what it is. Nobody's claiming responsibility for it, nobody's admitting to building it, nobody is even coming forward to say what it is. An 0-8-4 is, basically, shit that fell out of the sky and nobody knows what to do with it, and apparently S.H.I.E.L.D. is who you call when that happens.
- It's actually a clever set up. Either somebody has to fess up to what the 0-8-4 is (which means if its a superweapon someone has to admit they had an alien tech superweapon willingly in their possesion and face the consequences) or S.H.I.E.L.D. gets it. That makes it impossible for someone to have an 0-8-4 type object they don't want S.H.I.E.L.D. to know they know they have without trying some complex plan like the Peru government feigning ignorance while having a small team try to steal it from S.H.I.E.L.D..
- But they do know where it came from. HYDRA scientists built it for the Peruvian government and misfired during testing. The Peruvian leader explains all this to Coulson.
- Yes—after she took over the Bus to steal it. No one claimed it originally, and the Peruvian government never officially said a word on it. Reyes was just indulging in some Evil Gloating. If asked, the Peruvians could have easily disavowed all knowledge of her and the device. And actually, Coulson implies that she was planning to use it to take over the country (thought she didn't answer), so maybe they really didn't have any knowledge of it, and she just stumbled on some WWII records and got lucky.
- As far as the national sovereignty question, nations that allow S.H.I.E.L.D. to operate on their soil at all probably have treaty obligations that spell out its areas of authority and responsibility. And they probably agree to those terms for the same reasons that there are American military bases all over the world: they get the benefits without having to pick up the check.
Coulson's Resurrection *CONTAINS SPOILERS*
- After the events of "A Magical Place" it seems to be confirmed that Coulson was very very dead in The Avengers. The doctor (Ron Glass) seen in the pilot was one of those who was involved in bringing him back from death, and it looked like he was called in partway through the process, while Phil's brain was being rebuilt (for lack of a better word) and Phil himself was wide awake on the operating table, begging them to let him die. And it isn't All Just a Dream this time, because there is independent confirmation from the doctor. The most obvious questions to arise from this are:
- Why did they not call this doctor in to start with? With S.H.I.E.L.D.'s level of transportation technology, it seems like he could be fetched from anywhere on the planet within hours, yet the implication is that he was not brought in for days. Yes, there was a surgeon already present, but the implication is that Shepherd Book, sorry, Ron Glass' character was the best, otherwise why call him in at that point?
- Given the doctor's reaction during the flashback and once Coulson confronted him, they may have decided that he would have been so against what they wanted to do, that it would be easier to bypass him, hoping that they wouldn't need him at all. Seeing as they brought him into the loop after Coulson was 'alive', his own morality and ethics wouldn't let him kill Coulson all over again even though that's what he was begging for. So instead he did the only thing could could do in the situation, tried to lessen Coulson's suffering as best he could, performing the 'lesser of two evils' by altering his memories to give him something to live for.
- Why the hell would it be required for the patient to be awake during this apparently excruciating procedure? Doesn't the brain do everything asleep that it does awake? If your technology can trace the neurons well enough to rebuild them days after death, then shouldn't it be able to do that while you have a nice nap?
- It is, in fact, Truth in Television to do brain surgery on an awake patient (sometimes). There are no nerve endings in the brain so it only takes a local anesthetic to open the scalp and cranium. Why? So that you can monitor the patient's cognitive processes and make sure that a) you're not breaking anything important and b) that you're operating on the correct area. The surgical team stimulates localized parts of the brain and the patient's reactions tells them what they're working on. Presumably, Coulson's agony was from the extent of his ordeal, as just the brain surgery shouldn't have done it; unless they were stimulating the pain center of his brain.
- Why weren't the doctors wearing surgical masks? During open-brain surgery?
- For the same reason TV and movie astronauts don't have sun visors on their helmets but do have those silly interior lights that illuminate their faces.
- The fact that Fury would order this for Coulson makes it clear how valuable he really is (was); but at the same time doesn't it make Fury seem extremely selfish, to put Phil through this process "for the greater good"? Or is there truly nobody else who can do Coulson's job? (And could this be a Take That! at fans who "refused to let Coulson die"?)
- "is there truly nobody else who can do Coulson's job?" Can do the job, yes. Be Coulson? No! It's his heart, not just his ability to do the job. Remember Fury can count the people he trusts on one hand. He wasn't ready to cut off that finger. And for That position, he needs Coulson there, not because he can just do the job as well as many high level agents can, but because he has the heart, soul and Fury's trust.
- That's if we assume that keeping Coulson alive was the true end goal of the experiment. That might have just been a bonus.
- While there is no evidence that they are borrowing any of the back story of Coulson and Fury from the main continuity of the comics, if they are going with a variation of the two having known each other for years and being best friends prior to joining S.H.I.E.L.D., then one could maybe see that Nick was willing to do anything to save his best friend, even if he went to some truly horrible means to achieve it. Terrible things have happened for the sake of loved ones before in the MCU, and Fury's shown that he isn't above going to extremes for what he believes is right. With all that technology at his fingertips, he may not have even thought twice about trying to save his friend once the danger was over. It certainly doesn't justify the lengths to which he went, but it could explain his reasoning.
- There is this little conversation from The Avengers
- Fury: Just stay awake. Eyes on me.
Coulson: No, I'm clockin' out here.
Fury: Not an option.
- Taking the events of Captain America: The Winter Soldier into the account, perhaps Fury was already suspicious that S.H.I.E.L.D. might have been compromised (hence establishing secret bases like Providence). Given the possibility, he'd definitely want someone he could completely trust to help him rebuild things if things went sideways.
- What happened to Coulson's heart? It is said that the cause of death was his heart being torn into several pieces, so shouldn't he be getting heart surgery rather than brain surgery? (Sorry if it sounds stupid.)
- Wasn't he supposedly dead for several days? Meaning he'd have suffered brain death as well. Fixing a heart is comparatively easy, you could probably get a replacement from an organ donor, fixing a brain is less so.
- There are 6 brief shots of various types of medical/scientific equipment that are implied to be each of the previous attempts to save him; #3 looks an awful lot◊ like an artificial heart◊. It, among other things, could have been what Akela Amandour saw inside of him with her cybernetic eye.
- This is a great answer, but causes an additional Headscratcher for the O.P. Would it not have been better, medically speaking, to bring Coulson's brain back to life first, then rebuild his heart? If they have the technology to rebuild him, they should have the technology on the carrier to get oxygenated blood flowing to the brain almost instantly, thus preventing brain death; or else to put Coulson in suspended animation until he can be put into surgery. (I know we're in Joss Whedon's 'verse, so Break the Cutie is in full effect here, but still...)
- The GH-325 was shown to have properties of cellular regeneration. Surely it was used to heal his heart. But, considering the source of that thing, a blue humanoid creature, it is possible that Coulson healed but that his body is now slowly become an hybrid between human and whatever that thing was (Atlantean, Kree, Na'vi, place your bet), and that's what horrified Akela so much.
- In "The Hub" her entire plan requires Skye and Simmons to commit several crimes to save Fitz and Ward. However, in "The Magical Place", she insists on doing everything by the book, to the point of kicking Skye off the bus. Why?
- There are a number of possibilities. It's been noted that she doesn't seem to like Coulson's team and Skye in particular (which might be why she claimed Skye shot Sitwell, when it was Simmons), so she might just be acting generally obstructive, but not enough so that she'll actually get in trouble if they come out on top.
- It's also not clear that she ever intended for Skye and Simmons to save Fitz and Ward. Hand is a very ruthless individual. She may not have intended Ward and Fitz to come back at all; not maliciously, I'll note, she just didn't prioritize their survival as being particularly important. If Ward can get himself and/or Fitz out alive, that's a bonus, but not a required mission parameter. By her own admission, this is how Hawkeye and Widow operate.
- As was pointed out in the "Extraction Plan" folder above, though, Hawkeye and Widow are told there won't be extraction before they end up in a position where the only chance of survival is another agent defying orders.
- The bottom line is that Victoria Hand had the Conflict Ball super-glued to her forehead to set her up as a Red Herring to be the Clairvoyant. The fact that it didn't really work and just made her seem badly written is because she was just badly written.
Mike and Centipede, round 2
- Okay, I'll believe that Mike's advanced healing could've saved him from the explosion at the end of "The Bridge". But how the crap did Centipede get Mike to put an eye implant into him? After the explosion, the Centipede team left & the S.H.I.E.L.D. team stayed. How could Centipede possibly have gotten to the body first? By all accounts, it doesn't make sense.
- Centipede has shown to be very resourceful, they probably took him from the ambulance and faked his death at the hospital.
- Or, since he's apparently the new Deathlok, they may not have faked his death at all.
- Nope. If they could bring him back that easily, they wouldn't have needed to question Coulson about his resurrection.
- The stinger where Mike appears minus a leg and an eye happens after Coulson is rescued from Centipede. And we don't know how much time passed between Coulson's rescue and Mike's reawakening. They could have learned just enough from interrogating Coulson to reanimate Mike after a few weeks of experimentation.
- We see exactly what Coulson tells them. Nothing that Coulson says is actually helpful, and the only person he says it to is immediately captured by S.H.I.E.L.D.. There is nothing they could have gotten from Coulson that would have helped in reviving Mike.
- We only see part of Coulson's interrogation. We actually don't know what Centipede learned from him. And if the Clairvoyant is as all-seeing as his name implies it wouldn't matter if the Centipede agents on the scene were captured by S.H.I.E.L.D.. At the very least they may have learned from Coulson's interrogation the name of the doctors who revived Coulson, and that piece of information could have easily led them to the secret of how to reanimate the dead. The bottom line is this: Mike is Deathlok, and Deathlok in the comics is traditionally a dead man brought back to life and turned into a cyborg. If he wasn't killed and brought back then there would be no point in the writers turning him into Deathlok at all. Ergo, it is at least probable that he was killed and brought back to life.
- And "traditionally" in the comics Hulk got that way because he jumped on a gamma nuclear bomb. "Traditionally" in the comics, Nick Fury was a white guy who was active in WWII and kept getting youth serums and stuff to keep him active to today. "Traditionally" in the comics, Hank Pim creates Ultron. There's plenty of "point" to them using a character's name without using every single detail from their comics backstory. And the whole point of Coulson's interrogation was that the Clairvoyant couldn't see how he'd been brought back, and what we're shown of the interrogation makes it pretty clear he wasn't giving them a detailed play-by-play of everything that happened.
- Watching "The Bridge" again, it's not 100% clear how many teams the Centipede project may have had on site. It's also not clear exactly what happened to Mike. They blow up the tankers as a diversion to cover moving Coulson from the limo to their helicopter, then blow up the limo as well. It's entirely possible, or even probable, that they had another team we never even saw at the scene, and they were the ones who not only triggered the limo explosion, but retrieved Mike. Alternate theory- when the tankers exploded, Mike was actually thrown clear, landing in the same area where the Centipede team was busy moving Coulson from vehicle to vehicle, and he was picked up at the same time. So Mike was in the back of the chopper, at the same time Coulson was in the front.
- Why doesn't the eyepiece have a microphone in it, so that the "handler" can listen in on their victim in addition to watching through their eyes? It seems like an easy thing to implement, and if so, Skye and Ward's scheme at the end of the episode "Eye Spy" never would have had a chance.
- There probably just wasn't enough room inside the eyepiece (though there might be if they took out the kill switch device). The fact that they were even able to miniaturize it that much is a minor miracle. Even if they could do it, a tiny microphone would be pretty easy to disable. It would have to be placed on the outside of the head (as opposed to inside the mouth or the ear canal, where it would be drowning in ambient noise) so all Akela would have had to do is plant her finger over the microphone and she could talk to whoever she wants.
Why is Centipede so interested in questioning Coulson?
- The technology that allowed S.H.I.E.L.D. to revive him and alter his memory is certainly something interesting in its own right, but there is no way Centipede could learn anything interesting about it by merely interrogating the patient. Even if there was something interesting to be learnt from Coulson in that regard, why would Centipede care about such technology? Centipede is a horrible boss and often kills its own employees when they disappoint him. Reviving dying employees is just not their style.
- Raina told us the reason (or the reason she was told, anyway): The Clairvoyant wants to be able to bring his soldiers back from the dead. While it is unlikely they could get the full details out of Coulson, it's also likely that he's the only one they know for certain was involved in the project. So even if he can't give the full details, he can provide enough clues to know who to grab and interrogate next—and they will likely know more, and so on. What probably happened was that they just saw an opportunity to nab Coulson and took it. If it was a choice between him and Fury, they would have grabbed Fury.
- They needed to know what he knew so they could perfect their Deathlok project.
- Grabbed Fury? Easier said that done. The guy kicks all kinds of ass on his own and, as the director of S.H.I.E.L.D., he's probably surrounded by at least half-a-dozen agents at all times just in the ordinary course of his business. They might as well try to abduct Captain America.
- Well, yes, of course, that's why they didn't. But the opportunity could have conceivably arisen. In reality, it was far easier to grab Coulson. If they knew more about the project, they would have grabbed Dr. Streiten, since he has even less protection.
- But as we've seen in the stinger for The End of the Beginning and in The Winter Soldier, Fury actually does just drive himself around in an ass-kicking SUV with no escort. Remembering that he is head of a covert, mainly non-existent organization who wants as little attention as possible, therefore, no "S.H.I.E.L.D. Secret Service agents". And when HYDRA does try to assassinate him, as it turns out, it's still not that easy.
- Don't forget the simpler explaination — Centipede doesn't want to interrogate Coulson for the answers, they want to dissect Coulson.
- "Ragtag" explains things: Garret is the first Dethlok, and is dying from organ failure. His interest in Coulson is because he believes whatever brought Coulson back will keep him alive. Making an army of Centipede supersoldiers for HYDRA along the way is, as Skye said, triple bonus points.
Putting the team on a plane
- What is the point of having a team that lives on a plane that flies everywhere? S.H.I.E.L.D. is an international organization. If there is a problem in, say, China why not just let a Chinese S.H.I.E.L.D. team handle it? Why wait hours to fly in this particular team?
- They're a fireteam, supporting other cells. They need to be able to move quickly.
- The same reason Mulder and Scully travel all over the country (and sometimes further) investigating an X-file, rather than "just let someone nearby look into it" or why the Criminal Minds team fly to various areas when there's a case they need to handle, rather than "let the local cops figure it out". They're the team that does this.
Mike Peterson Powers and Injuries
- Why hasn't the Extremis virus regenerated his leg (or eye)? Wasn't that one of the plot points of Iron Man 3?
- This version is watered down with other elements. It does vastly reduce the Healing Factor and mean they don't have pyro powers, but it also makes them much less likely to explode.
- Also, since he's now Deathlok, he may have been killed and brought back to life, so he might not have any regenerative powers anymore, if he had any to start with.
Why didn't he just shoot her?
- In "Yes Men", during the fight at the biker bar, Ward had Lorelei dead to rights with the night-night gun. Why didn't he shoot her right there?
- Probably because he asked her to surrender out of force of habit, and while it took physical contact to overpower him, her speaking must have been enough to unbalance him until she could grab him.
- It also probably wouldn't have worked. Asgardians are immune to regular bullets. It was unlikely a night-night round would have worked. He probably knew this and was hoping he could just scare her into giving up.
- In light of the lengths Ward has gone through to gain the teams trust as an infiltrating HYDRA agent, its possible that he let Lorelei capture him on purpose in order to make the team save him as a trust builder.
- As we learn after Ward being exposed as a HYDRA agent, he's actually pretty weak-willed, so it would make sense that just a few words from Lorelei would be enough to keep him from shooting.
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?
- Setting aside how pointless the scene was in general, are the characters going to completely ignore the fact that Ward was effectively Raped while under Lorelei's mind control?
- Yes and no. Yes, that was a horrible thing she did, but, honestly, it's the exact same thing she was doing the rest of the episode. Every time she uses her powers, she's raping men, it's just Mind Rape rather than physical rape. So what's the point of bringing it up? The only person who needs to discuss it is May, and Ward and May have that whole "I'm totally more stoic than you" thing going on, so when he tried to apologize for hurting her (even though it wasn't his fault), she just brushed it off instead of discussing it, admitting she was hurt, but eventually forgiving him because he was mind controlled and thus not responsible for his actions.
- If that's even what May was hurt by—I got the sense what hurt her was when Lorelei said that May wasn't Ward's "first choice," implying that he had feelings for someone else on the team.
- Unfortunately, it appears that Double Standard: Rape, Female on Male is in effect to some degree here. Ward's a tough guy, and it seems that he's being expected to just suck it up and move on.
- Or his HYDRA training has him so damaged that it "was just another assignment" to him, just like when he was having sex with May.
The Clairvoyant and Rising Tide
- If the source of the Clairvoyant's powers is having an astronomically high clearance level within S.H.I.E.L.D., why was there any need to hire a hacker to get a hold of a S.H.I.E.L.D. datafeed?
- Raina hired Miles and Raina obviously doesn't have access. It's obvious that the Clairvoyant wants to keep everyone in the dark about being high up in S.H.I.E.L.D., so it makes sense that they wouldn't just arbitrarily give away secrets to subordinates, which would tip off people fast.
Victoria Hand's test
- So... Victoria Hand tests people to see if they're HYDRA by pretending to be HYDRA herself and then demanding they swear allegiance. This seems like a terribly flawed way of rooting out HYDRA agents, because a) we've seen that HYDRA members recognize one another within S.H.I.E.L.D., so real members of the group would know she wasn't one of them; and b) Loyal S.H.I.E.L.D. agents might just immediately decide to go down shooting (Agent Triplett could easily have killed one of her men, for example) or they might decide to take the chance to infiltrate HYDRA by faking loyalty. Either way, she's putting herself, her men, and the good agents at great risk and it doesn't seem like she's actually going to catch any HYDRA spies.
- It's foolish to assume every HYDRA agent in S.H.I.E.L.D. knows every single other HYDRA member in S.H.I.E.L.D. by name and sight. Aside from compartmentalization (if one agent's captured, he can give everyone away; you think every grunt is going to know the top people?), there are thousands of HYDRA members in S.H.I.E.L.D.. That is just way too damn many of them for every individual to keep track of. And putting them at risk? They're all already at risk; they've reached a point where everyone's at risk of death at any moment.
- When the guards bust in on Coulson and his team (and Garrett), Garrett says that he knows some of them had to have been recruited by Sitwell, and they know what to do. The implication is that the two guards who were HYDRA assumed (correctly) that since Garrett knew who one of their leaders was, he had to be HYDRA himself, but didn't know he was until that moment.
- How many options does she have? (Given that she is once more forced to carry the Idiot Ball and Conflict Ball at the same time (one could say she has her Hands full), but that's plot related, not character, so it's not really relevant to why she did what she did.) She is aware that another organization has infiltrated her own, but has no real idea who is in it or even how many members there are. She needs a quick and dirty test to determine who might belong to this enemy group, or maybe even more importantly, who doesn't belong to it and might still be loyal to her. So, she uses the method seen. Maybe she was planning to arrest all those who agreed to pledge to HYDRA and sort it out later, but she figured that anyone who refused as vehemently as Simmons and Triplett, and then fought for S.H.I.E.L.D., was a safe bet to be loyal. Except for an agent in deep deep cover like Ward, who was so committed to his superior's survival that he would actually help capture him alive, so he could rescue him later....
- It was pretty implied Hand killed honest S.H.I.E.L.D. agents because she thought they might be HYDRA (ie, anyone who resisted being taken) and she had guys attacking Coulson's team with lethal force throughout the ep, even though her hunch had been wrong. It's kind of a jerkish way to go about it but that's Hand for you. Hand probably figured 1. mook HYDRA plants wouldn't know the higher ups involved so they'd expose themselves by saying "No wait boss I'm HYDRA too see." and show off their HYDRA union cards or whatever. and 2. Anyone that easily caved to HYDRA was a traitor that couldn't hack it and deserved death. Granted Triplett passed her test a little too well when he almost killed that clean guy, but Hand likely decided anyone that picked the death option, even if they just sat back and prepared to eat bullets without resistance rather than futilely try to fight back was trustworthy.
- Nick Fury has secret bases, presumably dozens all over the planet. That makes perfect sense. He or someone very high up contacted Coulson with coordinates to said secret base. Still makes perfect sense. There are serious problem with this though. First the base is so well hidden that Coulson is literally standing on top of it and only notices it because he hurls his badge in frustration. (The turret was designed to shoot fast moving metalic objects and might never have given away its position to them just wandering around and despite looking for it everybody present Failed a Spot Check pretty spectacularly. A base you can't find with directions to the front door is a bit too well hidden. Then worse, when they get in the caretaker is still keeping secrets from the team but allows Skye to call out on her cell phone of all things to an agent in the field? It's not like she snuck away she did it in plain sight and he asks who's she calling instead of just stopping her. Even if Ward wasn't with HYDRA calling out on a cell phone from a secured location is some serious amateur hour bullshit that someone should have stopped.
- It's probably some crazy untraceable S.H.I.E.L.D. cell phone. Also the caretaker is in the other room with Coulson when she makes the call.
- He saw her start making the call, though which was the point. He probably just thought better of trying to go over Coulson's head on that.
- Why didn't Coulson or May stop her?! Even if it us some crazy untraceable S.H.I.E.L.D. cell phone the current arc is about how S.H.I.E.L.D. has been very heavily compromised by HYDRA. Far enough up the chain that Coulson, May and Ward have all have various fingers pointed at them. I think S.H.I.E.L.D. compromised trumps untraceable cell phone that they created. Even then they knew that the Fridge was under attack and Ward could very easily have been I dunno, acting under duress? There are so many reasons why someone should have stopped Skye that have absolutely nothing to do with Ward's current status that it screams collective Idiot Ball.
- Because she's the paranoid uber-hacker who just erased all their information. All of it. By herself. If she thinks the phone's secure, it's secure, and she'd be able to tell if Ward was talking under duress—not to mention he has training to resist torture. And of course, they trust him, so they don't think him knowing where they are is a problem.
- The same paranoid uber-hacker that they caught in the pilot episode? We know it's plausible she allowed herself to be caught but Coulson doesn't know that and the custodian probably doesn't know any of them except May and Coulson. And he doesn't even attempt to stop her he just asks who's she calling.
- Coulson gave her the phone earlier in the ep, which was given to him by Hand, who assured him it would be untracable and the best secure way to stay in contact with her and Ward. What more can Coulson trust than that? He NEEDS to stay in contact with them in order for them to still coordinate. And the only reason it isn't secure is because Ward is HYDRA, but that's not Skye's fault, the whole team still trusts him and don't know they were played so badly. After Ward's been made, then maybe Coulson will start operating with the assumption that they cannot trust or contact anyone outside their small unit (and even then...man...they just might not even be able to trust each other. Damn you Ward.) ever again. But for the time being they still thought it was safe to call Ward and bring him to their base.
- I think the team minus Ward will still be able to trust each other. Coulson was clean enough to get the coordinates to Providence, Fury trusted May enough to give her a direct line to him, FitzSimmons and Triplett all defied HYDRA in the battle at the Hub (Simmons and Triplett even expecting to die in their defiance), and Skye should want to stay as far from HYDRA as possible after they've directly threatened her.
- So exactly why has all of S.H.I.E.L.D. been declared a terrorist organization? HYDRA may have infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. but that doesn't make S.H.I.E.L.D. itself evil.
- HYDRA is S.H.I.E.L.D.. If you haven't seen Winter Soldier, do so. The organization is rotten to the core. There are good guys, obviously, and they may even be the majority, but S.H.I.E.L.D. needs to be burned to the ground. Now, the problem here is that the various world governments are less interested in making sure that HYDRA has been completely purged from the remnants as they are in stealing all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s supertech.
- Imagine it in the real world. Imagine if the crazy conspiracy theorists were right and The Illuminati were in control of the CIA and had been from the very beginning. It's revealed when they make their move to take over the world. It gets stopped though. Now right after that some of the CIA people say "Not me, I wasn't and am not a part of that Illuminati that started the CIA with plans of world domination, so we can just keep doing our CIA stuff right? Are YOU going to say "Eh, I'm sure they were telling the truth and the wool won't be pulled over our eyes like it was for the last 70 years".
- Also all the governments have basically had to deal with S.H.I.E.L.D. acting holier than everyone and being above reproach and everyone else's jurisdiction for the last 70 years. They are probably THRILLED to finally get the chance to crack down on the, from their POV, arrogant suits that forced their way above everything and did what they wanted in the name of "peace" but were too stupid to notice HYDRA sitting right under their noses all along. Plus we saw in Winter Soldier that the guys who basically admitted they screwed up and ditched S.H.I.E.L.D. for greener pastures like Hill and Sharon were allowed to relocate with no apparent fuss. It's the S.H.I.E.L.D. guys that stubbornly insist on continuing to try to operate like they were and trying to ignore or downplay what just happened they are going after, because they feel S.H.I.E.L.D. just cannot be trusted at all anymore, and anyone who refuses to realize that is dangerous.
- The declaration they'd been made a terrorist organization happened after Coulson told everyone to bail out and ran himself. Just as they were leaving, he mentioned that most of the personnel at the Hub had decided to surrender when the American forces came. If you were a government, a quick and dirty assumption is that the honest people would surrender and distance themselves from S.H.I.E.L.D., and the ones who refused to and ran could be threats, and possibly HYDRA themselves.
- Does Garret's line "Don't forget to follow your dreams", said to a random prisoner escaping from The Fridge, mean anything significant?
- You'll find out next week.
- It most likely might be relevant, but also consider that he released those prisoners as a general distraction. It doesn't matter what "dreams" they follow, just so long as they cause some mayhem that the good guys have to deal with.
- Considering he knows about the Cellist thanks to Ward however, he probably was addressing Daniels in particular, knowing he'd go after her and Coulson would spring to the rescue.
- Stalker with a Crush. See, next week.
Sending men to deal with Lorelei
- Okay, so I've seen plenty of plots where the villain is "a woman who can use mind control powers only against men." Sif EXPLICITLY tells Coulson and the team that Lorelei can mind control men AND ONLY MEN. S.H.I.E.L.D. has plenty of female agents, but brazenly opts to send in Grant instead of Melinda, or Maria Hill, or Agent 13, or any other S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who is not male. But I guess the episode would have been boring if Lorelei just gets tackled by an all-female SWAT team.
- There was a time limit, and women are still a minority in any type of armed forces. They just couldn't get an all-female team together fast enough. The plan was to have the men (and the women who were present, like May) handle the brainwashed guys while Sif slapped the collar on her. But then the collar got damaged, so that went out the window.
- It also seemed possible Coulson and co just didn't take the warning too seriously at first. "Oh she can control weak minded men with her voice and others with a touch? No problem. We're not weak minded so just don't let her touch you and we'll be fine." Once they lost Ward, Coulson proceeds to send in an all woman team and keep himself away from the scene until they'd confirmed she was gone, so he'd learned his lesson. They were just careless at first.
Ward and Lorelei *CONTAINS SPOILERS from 1x17+*
- Now that we know that Ward was Evil All Along, his behaviour with Lorelei seems weird. It seems quite clear that Lorelei's control totally overrides any previous loyalty and makes the victim her devoted slave while preserving his skills. So why didn't Ward tell her everything about HYDRA and the Clairvoyant?
- We can of course speculate that he did tell her but it is never revealed to the viewer. But it is not likely for at least two reasons:
- Lorelei's only goal in life is taking over powerful men to play sadistic games of power and domination with whole countries and worlds. Which means that if Ward had told her about HYDRA and the Clairvoyant, she would likely have been extremely interested. I can imagine the scene: "Oh, by the way, I was never truly loyal to those people, I was just inflitrating their team. I am a high-ranking member of HYDRA, an evil conspiration that infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. and plans to take over the world. I followed one of their leaders, his name is John Garrett but those days he styles himself the Clairvoyant. But of course now I only care about you." What would Lorelei do? She would ask to be taken to the Clairvoyant at once so she can control him and take over HYDRA.
- If Ward had spilled the beans, he would likely have been very upset about that after he is released from Lorelei's control, but he shows no such concern. And probably Lorelei would have tried to use that information as a way to destabilize the team or to bargain for her freedom when things were turning sour for her.
- More likely he did tell her. Pillow talk "Oh by the way I'm secretly working for a different group called HYDRA" "I don't know what this HYDRA is. Why do I care? What's it got to do with me?" Without knowing the inner workings of S.H.I.E.L.D. and other secret gov. agencies it really wouldn't make much sense to her. She hadn't shown any interest in the inner workings of S.H.I.E.L.D. anyway. None of it mattered because she would soon be running the world anyway (according to her plan). It would be similar (based on her level above the mere mortals) to one of the cops she controlled telling her "by the way I'm taking money under the table from the drug cartel".
- While it's possible Ward managed to remain in a position where he never had to be prompted to reveal that info to her, he could have told her. We don't know what their plan specifically was after taking the bus and taking out Sif. It could have been to go straight to Garrett to get him and HYDRA under their control. As for why Lorelei didn't immediately blurt it out, why bring it up when she was seemingly going to win anyway? And afterwards she couldn't talk.
- On another topic, the Lorelei episode and its epilogue show that even though he is HYDRA, Ward does care for someone in the team (likely Skye).
- Additionally, would Lorelei even know what to do with that information anyway? She doesn't seem to understand Earth politics well enough to even realize how valuable intel like that could be. She's not the most skilled tactician; her evil plan boils down to, "Make the strongest guy do what I say, then send him to break things."
- Lorelei is not the smartest person around, that's granted. But HYDRA's goal is quite straightforward, and we can observe than people under Lorelei's control are extremely enthusiastic and eager to serve her. Phrases like "conspiracy infiltrated in any possible organization and government" and "taking over the world", spoken by someone like Ward which is quite credible and convincing, are understandable by anyone.
- While she'd understand "taking over the world" from Ward, she was already doing that. According to HER plan. He tells her he's part of HYDRA and they're going to take over the world and her reaction would be "Silly boy. I'm taking over the world, and everything is going according to plan. Are you suggesting I should join this silly little group of yours with plans to take over the world secretly and subtly over many years?" Even if he said "Well you could use HYDRA" her plan is to use Everybody. Why does HYDRA secretly being part of S.H.I.E.L.D. and subtly manipulating things matter when she can rather than use them, just control the President.
- The answer to this entire thing: Lorelei is dumber than a bag of hammers. Men hold the majority of power on this planet, and she could have trivially taken over the world with a tiny bit of work. Asking why she didn't take over HYDRA is the wrong question...why didn't she take over S.H.I.E.L.D.? Or the US government? Instead, she took over a small roadside diner. She could have had every man on the planet writing her checks, or handing over diamonds. Instead she takes over a frickin diner and sends some guys out on raiding parties, to get things she could have just asked for and they would have been provided. And then, when she teams up with Ward, she takes over...a hotel room? And then an airplane? She doesn't even bother to try to figure out how the world works, or anything useful. Her plan is to 'Find strong guys, make them go out and steal stuff for me', which is an absurdly unambitious plan for someone with her powers who can get half the population to freely give her all their stuff!
- The bottom line is that Ward likely didn't tell Lorelei because she simply never asked. Her puppets react to her immediate wants and desires without using their own initiative. Thinking about long-term strategy, even on her behalf, is probably out of the question if she doesn't task them with it. Also, let's give Lorelei the benefit of the doubt. Asgardians have a lifespan of millenia and their culture hasn't changed appreciably since the viking age — and Lorelei has been in a dungeon for centuries. She probably hasn't realized that there's more to Earth now than "strongest guy rules" because that's the way it was the last she knew.
- Even if Lorelei was stuck in the mindset of the Viking Age, she would still understand that S.H.I.E.L.D. was after her. She would at least ask Ward some basic questions about S.H.I.E.L.D., which would have revealed that HYDRA was the one really running the show.
- Ward did not mention HYDRA because HYDRA was not, at that moment, in condition to help his mistress. They would change that when they execute Order 66, but at that moment, HYDRA was still vulnerable: the top-level agents who were not involved (such as Fury) were still alive, S.H.I.E.L.D. was still operating in order, and the insight project was still under construction. If Ward goes to the Clairvoyant and asks for support to the evil Lorelei (who was already being seeked by S.H.I.E.L.D.), he would accomplish nothing but just get them all in jail and ruin the whole conspiracy for nothing. He also knows that he can't get his mistress to replace Pierce or Garret in the conspiracy: it relies in subtlety, and Lorelei is anything but subtle (and it was stated that, even mind controlled, Ward is still Ward, so he won't make such huge strategic mistakes because of having his mind clouded). And of course he would never have HYDRA exploit her, as his loyalty will now lie with her and only her.
- And not only the would it matter to her? point, but Would it matter to him at that point? He's secretly working with HYDRA infiltrating S.H.I.E.L.D. to take over the world...... Except now he's not. HYDRA's plans to take over the world now mean nothing to him and he is not part of it, because now he is with Lorelei and her plans to take over the world. HYDRA's plans and goals don't matter and he is no part of them now because Lorelei is soon the ruler of the world. It's like if you were working for the government, but were secretly working for North Korea, when Aliens came down and took over the entire world as a whole, and now control Korea, the US the entire world, does your old secret plans with N. Korea have ANY relevance when Aliens took over EVERYTHING?
Talbot and Providence
- One problem with Colonel Talbot leading the raid on Providence - he's a member of the US Air Force Special Forces. Providence is in Canada. It's usually not considered good form to run military ops in other people's countries if you're not at war with them. Shouldn't that op have been run by the Canadian military? If nothing else the Canadian government should have insisted that they be informed of the operation and be provided with copies of the intelligence, and a cut of any captured S.H.I.E.L.D. tech. After all, the base was on their soil.
- Maybe they were. It's not like they showed every step of the mission.
Agent Coulson and Project T.A.H.I.T.I. Again
- Ok, let me get this straight and explain detail-by-detail as to how this made me scratch my head so here. We all know that Agent Coulson died at the hands of Loki by the 2012 Avengers movie. We all saw how Loki thrusted his sharp scepter in a gruesome manner. That tore his heart literally which is enough to say that he is gone. Nick Fury did some meticulous scheme on the aftermath. Yes we know it because he is the man of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Fast forward to the 1st episode, By the time Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. came in, he was brought back from the dead thanks be to Project T.A.H.I.T.I. thru numerous tests as seen on that episode. Now, there are some of our beloved Agents that are questioning who are those behind the project besides Nick Fury, who is obvious, that doctor, his assistants, and those folks there. We go to this episode and found out who did what transpired after all of that and what Agent May took from the false grave of Coulson. Agent Coulson himself was the one who requested Nick Fury to stop i because of the adverse effects that it had. How is Coulson doing that after he himself is still dead? I mean, much as we learnt the memory alterations that it had, shouldn't Agent Coulson be still dead by that time? What is going on here?
- He was in Charge of Project T.A.H.I.T.I. before the events of the Avengers, when the Avengers Initative was still around. He sent that message recommending the project to be cancelled. It was, but then Coulson dies and Fury for whatever reason needs to revive him. So he dusts off T.A.H.I.T.I. and revives Coulson.
- Specifically, T.A.H.I.T.I. was Fury being Crazy-Prepared: It's not an exaggeration to say that the Avengers are the most important people on the planet, in the most dangerous roles. So he was trying to find a way to revive them if the worst should happen, and put his most trusted man (Coulson, his "one good eye") on it. Coulson did his duty, oversaw the project, and eventually recommended it be shut down. Fury complied. Then Coulson died, and Fury used T.A.H.I.T.I. to bring him back, as well as using Coulson's own recommendations about the treatment to wipe all memory of it from Coulson's mind, including being in charge of it originally.
- The only problem with this theory is that the Avengers only existed on paper at this point. The project still makes some degree of sense in the case of just being Crazy-Prepared but Thor was off world with no way to contact him, Banner didn't want to work with the government, Stark was found wanting (and with War Machine/Iron Patriot running around he was kinda replaceable as an Avenger. One might even go as far as to argue he's too important to send out into the field where he might die. We appear to still be missing a major player in this scenario one that will probably be revealed in the next few episodes.
- Those theoretical team members weren't looking likely, but the Avengers Initiative had been on the book since at least the first Iron Man movie. "Bring together a group of extraordinary people to fight the battles we never could" was still the plan, and it's a plan that could result in casualties among said extraordinary people. Hell, best case scenario for the T.A.H.I.T.I. project is that it works on anyone without side effects and they figure out how to synthesize the serum. There were a million reasons to research the drug whether or not Tony, Banner, and Thor were willing/able to be recruited.
- Now we also know why Coulson was asking them to let him die: he knew he would come back wrong; he'd seen it before. Question now becomes, does Skye have the same thing hanging over her? She wasn't "dead for days," (ok, seconds maybe), but probably not long enough to get brain damage.
- Skye took to the drug very well, which is speculated to be because she's an 0-8-4. So it's unlikely she'll suffer any side effects that won't end up benefiting her in the end.
- Either the above or she was gone for such a short period of time that it didn't count. People in real life have been brought back from being dead longer than Skye was gone.
Talbot and the Providence Interrogations
- Why didn't Talbott try to act on the intelligence that Team Coulson gave him willingly? I can understand him holding on to the team and trying to pry more information out of them, but as I understand it, his mission is to detain everyone in S.H.I.E.L.D. until the powers that be can figure out which ones are really HYDRA and what they should be doing with the rest of them. He was just handed the location of two more agents on a plate. All he would have to do is make a phone call to some military base in or near Los Angeles to follow up the lead he was given while he handled things in Providence and as far as he knew (Deathlok being a complication he would have no way of knowing about), he's soon have secured two more S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, their very nifty aircraft (There's only so many places you can park an airliner in a major city, and the extra engines mean that nobody who sees the Bus would mistake it for a civilian aircraft, so it's pathetically easy to find if you know where to look), and possibly (Assuming Coulson told him about the drive) kept a lot of juicy S.H.I.E.L.D. secrets out of HYDRA's hands and (Pending an interrogation of Skye for the encryption key) placed them in the hands of the US government. Add in an order to keep the two agents locked up in separate locations, and he would have also protected the allegedly good agent from the allegedly evil agent, which would earn him some goodwill and cooperation from the people he's trying to question. And all it would have cost him was a five minute phone call. So why didn't he try? Even after Team Coulson escaped, he still could have acted on that intelligence after waking up from the I.C.Er shot, at which point Ward's attempts to leave LA would have been easily thwarted by a flight of F-16s circling the airport and squawking something on the order of "S.H.I.E.L.D.-616, this is the Air Force. Power down and exit your aircraft and surrender to the company of Marines surrounding the runway or we will blow you to smithereens," followed by capturing all of Team Coulson (Where they would be going when they staged a breakout because he wouldn't act on their intel would be a no-brainer).
- He knows Coulson personally. As we see just from the episode in question Coulson has people who are loyal to him who are willing to go outside the law to help him. He has access to at least one base that government might never have found or infiltrated without help from May and Maria Hill. He doesn't know that Coulson isn't HYDRA, what he does know is that Coulson is a clever sonbitch who's Crazy-Prepared to boot. Making a phone call to send troops after his supposed lead might actually somehow summon a strike team, lock down the base or dozens of other things. When dealing with high tier S.H.I.E.L.D. or HYDRA agents the best move is to never surrender a single inch.
- If you're going to be that paranoid about it, then there's no point in interrogating the team at all, as anything they say could be a lead-in to a trap.
- If you're not going to be that savvy you might as well leave him alone with Maria Hill long enough to plea his case. With Fury and to a lesser extent with Coulson it's not paranoia it's actually knowing who you're dealing with and taking appropriate measures.
Why is Coulson allowed to be a field agent?
- If Coulson's resurrection is such a big secret, why is he allowed to go on missions that constantly expose the fact he's alive? For example, in "Yes Men" Sif found out he wasn't dead. She's likely going to tell Thor, who will probably tell the other Avengers. If S.H.I.E.L.D. is being so lax about Coulson's resurrection, why bother keeping it a secret?
- Because he's still part of S.H.I.E.L.D.. The list of people that Coulson knows that aren't on the take is extremely small, and it's easy enough to make sure he never interacts with them. The Sif example was easily solved with "let me tell him".
- Also, although it is never stated, it seems likely that Coulson's resurrection was an important secret in the beginning but is not so important now. Probably the main point was to keep the enemy of S.H.I.E.L.D. off the tracks of project T.A.H.I.T.I., and that has obviously failed since the Clairvoyant has been aware of it in the main lines for a long time (possibly from the beginning) and looking for more information ever since. The secondary reason is that Fury used Coulson's death to manipulate and inspire the Avengers in The Avengers (and may also have used it in the gods only know how many similar twisted plots and schemes), and he obviously doesn't want those people to know they have been fooled, and that one still more or less stands, but the Avengers are a very small group of persons and the rest of S.H.I.E.L.D. is in chaos.
- Still all valid points, but just want to point out that technically, Fury never fooled the Avengers. Coulson really did die, so Fury never lied to them about that... he just made sure Coulson didn't stay dead.
- And Coulson being a field agent could be Fury's way to try to get him to heal. Instead of being stuck in an office all day, he could be active again and rediscover a reason to live.
Exactly how long was Ward in the woods?
- Ward was first found by Garrett 15 years before the present, making him about 16 or 17. Six months later, he's still played by the young actor. But in the next scene, he's played by Brett Dalton. How much time went by?
- Watch the time stamp. When Garrett first breaks him out of juvenile detention, that was 10 years ago. At the end, right before he joined S.H.I.E.L.D. and when he was played by Brett Dalton, that was 5 years ago. That doesn't necessarily mean he spent the whole 5 years living in the woods though. That may have just become where they went to relax. In any case, by that point Ward certainly knew how to survive.
- After 6 months in the woods, young Ward mentioned planning to build a cabin. By the final scene in the woods 5 years later, there was a small cabin built, which suggests Ward did spend a substantial amount of time living out there.
- Actually, the timestamps show the Ward from juvenile hall was "fifteen years ago." And then six months passes in the woods. And then, later on, when he's played by Brett Dalton, it's "ten years ago." Which means that he trained for five years before being accepted into S.H.I.E.L.D.'s Operations Division.
Powers of Lorelei over a LGBT population
- Lady Sif says that Lorelei's powers only work on men, but what if the man is gay? Or if the woman is lesbian?
- Vulnerability might be based on possessing a Y chromosome, which is independent of sexuality.
- Nothing Sif said implied it had anything to do with sexuality or attraction, which does imply it's a Y chromosome thing. It might have been nice to get a explicitly gay man facing her so we had an answer one way or another, though.
- If they sent a gay male he'd probably come down with a severe case of If It's You, It's Okay.
- In the same vein (and especially with the whole 'men are weak' refrain throughout that episode), it would be rather interesting to find out what happens with someone who's trans*, or genderqueer, or intersex. So many options!
- So they really leave Garrett's body at Cybertek after Mike stomped his head? Why was it not collected by the military? Did Coulson know that he would have gotten up?
- Addressed when Coulson blasts Garrett into oblivion right as he gets up and tries to implant more cybernetics onto himself.
- They were still in the middle of cleaning up. They probably thought, reasonably enough, that a dead guy would stay where they left him while they dealt with capturing the living people still on the base.
- A friend and I were also talking about this exact thing when it happened. We came to the conclusion that either Coulson didn't know Garrett was still alive and just grabbed the 0-8-4 to dispose of the body. Or Coulson suspected that Garrett was still alive and waited outside the room with the 0-8-4 until he heard Garrett begin to monologue, at which point he just blasted Garrett. Either fit Coulson because he knows how to deal with things like this.
- Does anyone get the point of centipede combining gamma rays, the super soldier serum, extremis, and alien tech when the result is inferior to pretty much all those processes? The centipede soldiers didn't have all the features of a super soldier like Captain America or the Winter Soldier, much less those injected with extremis, and they are hardly hulks. Considering the connections it was revealed the centipede operation had, I can't see them only having access to substandard versions.
- No one has the full super soldier serum anymore, so a partial version of that is all anyone could get. Though why no one else could find a way to recreate it is another matter. I don't think anyone actually knows why the gamma rays made Bruce Banner the Hulk instead of just killing him. So that may be why those things weren't tried by themselves. As for combing them all, the point was probably to create the ultimate super-soldier, which was still a work in progress.
- Well I haven't seen Winter Soldier yet, but wouldn't the winter soldier process be a HYDRA recreation of the supersoldier serum? And HYDRA has had his blood to test since WW2, even if you assume that HYDRA somehow lost the science. So that should be a huge head start in making a supersoldier serum at the very least. As for gamma radiation, in the cinematic universe I believe the Hulk was actually the result of a gamma ray mutation based supersoldier serum. Now it's a good bet that Bruce didn't leave that many notes behind, but I bet that Centipede would have the connections to get a blood sample from the Abomination. As for the extremis virus, I would assume they would have access to the full development of AIM, I'm sure Tony isn't sharing his iteration of the extremis virus though. So even if one assumes that they decided to sacrifice raw power for stability, one would assume that combining three different supersoldier methods combined would result in something as impressive as a single method they copied.
- Each individual Centipede soldier is inferior to Captain America, the Hulk, etc., this is true. But the fact that they can be mass produced is a huge leap forward in supersoldier technology. And the Centipede soldiers have the added benefit of being more controllable than a guy like Cap would be if he ever decided to go rogue. In that sense Captain America was the experimental Super Prototype, and the Centipede soldiers are the current-gen production model.
- Extremis makes you a but stronger, and way tougher, but has a tendency to make you explode. Hulk serum makes you way stronger, but leaves you uncontrollable. Super Soldier Serum has no side effects, but since they would only be knockoffs, the effect wouldn't be as noticable. Combining a weakened version of all three would reduce the side effects, and still be pretty effective.
- Super Soldier Serum does have side effects, though. The only two individuals (not counting Bucky, since we don't actually know the full extent of what HYDRA did to him) aside from Steve to have undergone the Super Soldier procedure are Shmidt and Blonsky, both of which experienced physical deformity and (potentially) some degree of mental instability (though whether that is a side-effect is up for debate). However, it should be noted that Steve is also the only person we see go through the entire procedure. (It's a two-stage thing. First stage is being injected with the liquid serum, and the second stage is exposure to radiation — "Vita rays", to be exact — to bond the serum to the host. Blonsky didn't undergo the second part and had to be repeatedly injected with the serum to maintain his "competitive edge" against the Hulk. And after a few injections, had started to show physical deformity. It's also just guessing, here, but Blonksy doesn't seem to become permanently bonded with the serum until his exposure to Banner's gamma-irradiated blood, which further mutates him into "The Abomination". Maybe any radiation functions as a bonding agent, but only Vita Rays are the "foolproof" method.) It is possible that not only are Centipede soldiers not as strong as Captain America because the Super Soldier Serum is "a knockoff" but also because, at the point they started the project, there were twice as many documented "half-failures" of the serum than successes, so they dialed back on the amount used to help control that aspect of things. Also, let's not forget that the Hulk was created in the MCU as a result of Banner testing (what he believed to be a treatment to protect soldiers from radiation exposure) a Super Soldier Serum-derivative on himself, and exposing himself to gamma radiation instead of the prescribed "Vita rays". Perhaps the gamma is present because documentation on how to harness vita rays is virtually nonexistent, and gamma radiation is the only thing centipede knows for certain at least kind of works with the serum. And extremis was added as a way to try to counteract the potential negative side effects of both the Super Soldier Serum and the gamma, with hopes that they would, in turn, help counteract the explosive nature of extremis.
Fun with Acronyms
- So, what is "T.A.H.I.T.I." supposed to mean?
- Maybe nothing. It could just be a codename someone came up with. Like HYDRA doesn't mean anything either, it's a reference to the Hydra of Greek myth.
- "T.A.H.I.T.I.", however, has the periods after every letter while HYDRA does not, implying that it's an acronym for something. Generally, in real life, project names like that happen in one of two ways: Either they chose a random codename so that outsiders wouldn't know what they were talking about and later someone found a way to make the real project title fit as an acronym, or the real project name acronym was close (maybe it spelled TAHT or TATI or something) and they whimsically added a couple words so it actually spelled something.
- How about Transverse Alien-Human Interactive Treatment Initiative? This could count as fridge brilliance if the fluid had some ability to rebuild the patient's "transverse tubules; structures in myofibers which run transversely to the long axis of the myofibrils in skeletal and cardiac muscle" according to the online medical dictionary. Repairing the fibers in the cardiac muscles would have helped to rebuild Coulson's heart.
- It means that someone really wanted the [project name] to spell [Tahiti].
- It means Terrestrialized Alien Host Integrative Tissue (I)? I'm guessing the last "I" stands for Initiative.
The Guest House guards not knowing about Coulson's memory alteration
- Okay, so Coulson comes to the Guest House and asks for medical help. The guards follow protocol and ask him for a call-sign. He doesn't know it, so they prepare to defend themselves. Understandable enough, since Coulson used to be their boss and his lack of knowledge of the call-sign could be a sign that he has been compromised in some way. The only problem is, they have to know that Coulson went through Project T.A.H.I.T.I., since this would have required Fury to bring him into the Guest House to have the procedure performed. Were they not made aware that Coulson's memories had been changed? It was an explicit part of the project, after all.
- The guys who guard the front door don't necessarily know every detail about the project. They may not have known anything more than that they were guarding something very important.
- The guy only thought Coulson was sort of familiar looking to him. This implies he didn't really totally recognize him. He probably didn't have much interaction with him, or was even brought over after Coulson left and only remember him as a patient or from the list of people that had been there. So they wouldn't know him from the video screen only.
Ward and the Clairvoyant
- Ward knows from the begining that Garret is secretly an HYDRA agent, infiltrated in S.H.I.E.L.D. like many others, himself included. But, when Skye was shot, did he know that, besides that, Garret was also the elusive clairvoyant? After all, one thing does not imply the other: even if he knew that the clairvoyant would be an HYDRA agent, it could have been some other agent, such as Pierce. Did he kill Nash because it was according to plan, or because he really thought it was the guy who ordered to shoot Skye? In fact, if he knew it when it was happening I don't think he would think twice about killing Garret. Of course, Ward called him on it later... when Garret had already revealed himself, and Skye was saved by the miracle drug (and so the "you ordered to shoot her!" scene would be a bt pointless). When she had just been shot, they did not know if they could save her, and Garret suddenly pays a visit to the bus, the discussion would have had a very different outcome.
- Ward seemed to be in on it from start. Not the shooting Skye part, but he was probably under orders from Garrett to use Skye as an excuse to kill "the Clairvoyant" and put the case the rest. Since Coulson was determined to bring them down, making it look like he'd died would mean they'd have to write him off as dead and move onto other cases (and thus stay out of Garrett's business) At best he'd get a slap on the wrist. At worse S.H.I.E.L.D. would throw the book at him but they could use their HYDRA pull to get him out. Of course Garrett wasn't expecting them all to be exposed only a few hours later, so in that respect the whole plan looks kind of pointless.
Erik Koenig: Idiot
- In "The Only Light in the Darkness", why does Erik Koenig, trained S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, expert interrogator, and Nick Fury's hand-picked housesitter, turn into a total idiot when he's interrogating Ward? He was properly paranoid about not being able to trust Coulson's team when they first arrive, refuses to give them any sensitive information until after they pass debriefing, and is even savvy enough to draw a gun on Ward when he suspects him to be a HYDRA agent... yet even with his super-sensitive lie detector flashing red lights all over the place, he easily lets bygones be bygones after one oddly-worded answer. At the very least, why didn't he talk to Coulson, May, or one of the other agents he's already established as trustworthy to keep an eye on Ward?
- In-universe, he accepted that Ward was hiding personal feelings as the reason for the lie-detector readings, vs. the fact that he was a traitor. Koenig not being terribly good at personal interaction himself (at least that's how he came off), he was convinced that this led to high enough stress levels to set off all the red lights. Story-wise, Eric was carrying the Idiot Ball because otherwise, Ward was caught at that point and would be shot through the forehead. An even better question would be why Koenig was conducting interrogations on suspected traitors solo and unobserved, once he had cleared the first agent. You would think at least one agent would be on the other side of a one-way mirror or observing through a camera, in case a traitor was suddenly identified and managed to be quick enough to take out Eric (who was honestly not that intimidating). Again- Idiot Ball.
- Something that bugs me about this scene is that (at least as far as we're shown) Koenig never actually asks the other members of Coulson's team if they're HYDRA or not. He says he wants to start with some routine questions to establish a baseline, fair enough, but the worst he ever asks the others is "Why are you here?" He only moves to "Are you HYDRA" with Ward because Ward's answer to the first question set off the lie detector. Had Ward skipped the "It's my duty" line and gone straight to "I'm here for Skye" he probably could have passed the test without raising any flags at all.
- How does S.H.I.E.L.D. manage to have an income? They don't get government funding like the MIB as they are a independent agency, S.H.I.E.L.D. universities also seem to be free... Do they steal their marks' wallet?
- I think it's pretty clear that S.H.I.E.L.D. gets government (or governments) funding. They have official jurisdiction in certain cases so it makes sense they would have official funding.
- I don't recall that the MIB got government funding. The movie explanation was that they sold off alien tech to fund their operations. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. sells 0-8-4s to the highest bidding government, once they determine they aren't something that has to be put on the Slingshot to preserve world safety? But it seems most likely that the member nations of the World Security Council are also the ones that fund S.H.I.E.L.D., which is why they get so irked when Fury does things without asking their permission (like sending the Tesseract back to Asgard). Otherwise it makes no sense that Fury would answer to anybody, unless he needed their money.
- Even if this was true, it's probably no longer the case in Season 2 where S.H.I.E.L.D. has lost its government support. So how do they get funding now?
- Fury probably stockpiled a few million dollars in his secret bases. And other than the plane tickets and food, I'll bet S.H.I.E.L.D. is pretty thrifty. It probably doesn't have to spend much on power what with cold fusion existing.
- Exactly, no point in having secret bases if you don't have the funding to man and operate them.
Coulson's and Garrett's Fridge and Slingshot Knowledge
- Coulson knew that the Fridge had a subbasement, but had no idea the Slingshot was a decoy. Garrett knew the Slingshot was a decoy, but had no knowledge of the Fridge's subbasement. They were both level eight agents. Why would their knowledge be so different.
- In real life classified information is given out to people who have the correct security clearance and have a "Need To Know" (An official reason why they need that information). So if S.H.I.E.L.D. runs the same way then it would be possible (and probably common) for agents with the same security level knowing different bits of classified information.
- Is it even possible to fracture a person's larynx like that without causing their throat to swell up and suffocate them?
- I've been hit in the throat before; my larynx wasn't fractured, but it was extremely difficult & painful to speak for about an hour afterwards. May didn't have to fracture Ward's larynx to shut him up. (I know that more circumvents your question than actually answering it, sorry.)
The Winter Soldier and Ao S crossover
- So I am curious if anyone else has reconciled the timeline between The Winter Soldier and Ao S. From what I can tell, The Winter Soldier takes place over 5 days, not including the fallout after the final action scenes. The hard part I am trying to understand is from my assumptions, HYDRA was outing itself over multiple public S.H.I.E.L.D. frequencies a day before the INSIGHT launch, and attacking other facilities (we see the Science Academy under siege when Simmons calls Agent Weaver). Yet, no one at the Triskelion is talking about S.H.I.E.L.D. bases being under attack, or unusual chatter about "false" alerts or weird feedback in multiple channels that could an encrypted message. Not to mention that something like Fury's death seems like news that should spread fast. Am I missing some insight or detail about all this, or is this possibly just a case of information and events getting "compartmentalized" (and that maybe intelligence agents and spies are not that gossipy or gabby)? Based on whenever day/night transitions happen, the days are:
Day 1: Steve and Sam meet while running/The Lemurian Star hostage situation that night
Day 2: Steve's debrief with Fury and personal time, Fury is attacked in DC/Fury is "assassinated" and stops by in Steve's apartment that night
Day 3: Steve escapes assassination, teams up with Natasha/The duo discover HYDRA is still active at the army base that night
Day 4: The duo team up with Sam, get in a fight with the Winter Soldier/Bucky is memory-wiped in preparation for the INSIGHT launch
Day 5: Project INSIGHT is stopped
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.:
Day 1: Coulson brings in Sitwell, Hand, Garrett, Triplett, and Blake to hunt down the Clairvoyant. Sitwell is later reassigned to the Lemurian Star.
Day 2: The plan to investigate suspects that could be the Clairvoyant is executed with three pairs of agent sent out. Blake is critically injured by Deathlok and hospitalized.
Day 3: Blake is transferred to another facility, Coulson discovers that Deathlok was tagged. They follow the tracer to the fake Clairvoyant, Thomas Nash, who is executed by Ward.
Day 4: Between day 3 and the early hours of day 4, the HYDRA activation signal goes out. Hand recalls the Bus to the Hub and works on rooting out HYDRA agents inside the base. Garrett is exposed as the Clairvoyant and HYDRA.
Day 5: ?/Background reports of Captain America defeating the INSIGHT Helicarriers
- From what I took from the episodes was that the message sent out to activate HYDRA agents was done around the time the insight helicarriers were launched. Coulson and his team were fighting in the Hub the same time Cap stopped the helicarriers and then the background reports were mentioned the day after that. And that the beginning of the Ao S plot may not have happened on the same days as Winter Soldier.
- This. Even if it isn't the case, there is another easy method to justify it: If the HYDRA agents were smart, the first thing they would have done when taking over S.H.I.E.L.D. facilities would be to take control of communications. If there was news that spread to actual S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, it would mainly be what HYDRA wanted them to hear.
- Also if Coulson and his team were in a different timezone then the US Eastern Coast (where 95% of Winter Soldier took place) then events taking place at night for one setting may be midday for the other even if its supposed to be happening around the same time.
- When the episode of AOS aired with S.H.I.E.L.D. being revealed as HYDRA, Coming back from commercial break there was the scene with Fury trying to get away in his vehicle and it finally being blown up. It really seemed like it was part of the show. Of course it quickly turned out that it was a commercial for Winter Soldier. Besides being smart to air the ad during AOS, I always felt that they were also trying to cleverly indicate that that scene from Winter Soldier was happening right at that same time as the point in time on the show, to give a pretty fair timeline of how they line up.
- The real question on the timeline is Fury's placement and recovery — him leaving at the end of Winter Soldier is at least a couple days after the big fight, and his arm is still in a sling. But he's there in time to pull Simmons out of the ocean and, more importantly, he's apparently recovered physically enough to not show any signs of his injuries when he does so.
Absorbing Man's wardrobe
- Creel spends a significant portion of "Shadows" running around wearing only a pair of pants, which is handy for showing off his powers. However, on two occasions, he uses his powers as camouflage—by becoming transparent in his transparent cell and by blending into the concrete wall while Hartley passes by in the military warehouse. In both of these situations, his pants would have been clearly visible. So was this guy repeatedly stripping nude to blend into the scenery? If so, when and why does he stop to put his pants back on before attacking Hartley? It makes sense to put clothes on before heading out in public to attract less attention, but it would be a waste of time in the warehouse when the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents would have attacked him on sight anyway, and he might have needed camouflage again at any moment.
- I recall the promos for Age of Ultron claim this time the Hulk will be wearing pants manufactured by Tony Stark to allow super-stretching. Maybe HYDRA similarly made Creel some pants with camo abilities instead, similar to Black Widow's mask in Winter Soldier.
- Ask yourself—if you were about to get into a combat situation, wouldn't YOU want to take a minute to put your pants back on? Even if he can literally have balls of steel, he's vulnerable while changing material. And "looking like stuff" isn't camouflage once he's back outdoors, where a man with no pants would attract more attention than one merely shirtless.
- As we saw in "Heavy in the Head", Coulson still has his hypergraphia episodes, and that there's a secret plaster wall inside his office that May patches up after he's done carving into it. Wouldn't it be easier to just have a whiteboard/chalkboard?
- Garret was arguably more in control of those episodes than Coulson, and he still felt the need to carve the symbols into a glass door rather than use paper. Perhaps part of Coulson's compulsion makes him seek out more permanent methods of recording.
- OP here - Garrett only used a glass door because it was the only thing available to him (at least I think it was). Though you could be onto something about the method of writing. He carved into a plaster wall in his first episode. We don't know what Garrett would have done had he had another episode (on the account that he got unceremoniously vaporized).
- I find it hard to believe that he couldn't find a notebook or some kind of easier writing surface in the lab he pulled the door off of. But maybe he was just in a hurry.
- I would think that he's not himself when he has these hypergraphia episodes, and as a result, he simply cannot just make the glyphs onto a chalkboard or a notebook.
- "The Writing on the Wall" reveals that the writing is a representation of a city that the GH alien knew or was from. It is possible that the desire to carve the writing instead of drawing it was an attempt to make a model of the city. Perhaps a 2D blueprint wasn't something the other subjects or the GH compulsion were able to do, and Klein's knowledge of welding/modeling allowed him to reproduce the memory of the city accurately enough to keep him sane.
Oxygen control in Ward's cell
- Why exactly does Ward's prison cell have an oxygen control? It's hard to imagine any practical purpose it could serve. Perhaps for torture, like Fitz was doing?
- It's not entirely clear whether Ward's cell was originally designed to be a prison or the space was repurposed when the team took over and needed someplace to keep Ward. So one possibility is that it was intended for storage of (non-living) items in a low-oxygen environment, or oxygen removal was intended as a fire suppression measure for the storage space, etc. I'd lean towards this explanation, considering that it's labeled as a "Vault," not a cell. Alternatively, S.H.I.E.L.D. may have designed some of their prison cells to accommodate non-human prisoners for whom Earth atmosphere may not be optimal. If they ended up imprisoning, e.g., an alien who was used to a lower oxygen content, it would be kinder to adjust the room air quality rather than the prisoner having to wear some type of breathing apparatus full-time.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. exists in a world where there are a fair amount of supers and various metas. We've got at least Hulk and Thor's rogues running around in official cannon and the X-Men and Spiderman are I guess "quasi cannon"? I mean most of us know they should be around if not for various copy right laws. Being able to suck the oxygen out of a room might be a way to deal with the Hulk or keep some one with fire powers from escaping or other various unforseen issues. Why they stuck Ward in one could be the only one available to their new limited resources or maybe they thought he'd break out of a regular cell. He is quite competent.
Lack of I.C.E.R.'s in the episode "Making Friends and Influencing People"
- How come Coulson's team uses lethal ammunition in this episode, rather than the Night-Night gun? As a result of this, Donnie Gill is seemingly killed by Skye note . On the other hand, had she merely stunned him, HYDRA would have still captured him, and added another powerful weapon to their arsenal—yet May and Hunter's lives would still be saved regardless. Also note that two HYDRA mooks were killed as well.
- Didn't you kind of answer your own question? If they use ICERs, HYDRA gets Donnie. And two HYDRA goons being killed isn't a bad thing.
- I liked the fact they didn't use the ICERS during that episode, it kinda bugs me how much they use the stun guns (mostly last season) compared to regular ammunition.
- The production team probably rely on the ICERs to keep costs down. There are rules and regulations about using blank-firing weapons and a separate team of weapons handlers has to be brought on if an episode includes gunfire. The ICERs are modified airsoft guns that can be handled by the regular props department without having to jump through extra hoops to ensure on set safety.
- ICE Rs so far seem to be used primarily for defence, when going up against figures like the US military (who they wouldn't want to hurt for obvious reasons) or when they're only as a backup. If they're going up against HYDRA, they likely don't bother abstaining from using lethal ammo since, well, who cares if they kill some HYDRA scumbags? The stun option allows them to avoid killing unless they have to, but HYDRA they don't bother because they consider them, largely, to be monsters that they don't lose sleep over killing.
Why did Coulson keep the truth about Simmons hidden from Fitz?
- Here is my issue with this: I understand that Coulson didn't disclose to Fitz the fact that Simmons was infiltrating HYDRA for the same reason he didn't tell him that Ward was being held at Playground base: Fitz has completely understandable anxiety surrounding HYDRA, and, coupled with his already traumatic injuries, finding out that Simmons had either requested or been selected for the mission would have been likely to cause him a great deal of distress. But why let Fitz think that Simmons had left solely for personal reasons (i.e. that she didn't want to be around him due to his brain damage)? Considering that Coulson is fully aware of how emotionally attached Fitz-Simmons are to one another, and in Season 1 seemed at least partially to realise that Fitz was in love with Simmons and was afraid of her not returning his feelings, surely he, as The Heart, should have realised that to apparently suffer that rejection on top of everything else he'd been through would be exactly the sort of thing that would send Fitz into an utter meltdown. So - since he didn't keep from Fitz the fact that they had someone from HYDRA locked up on the base as an informant, just the identity of said asset, why didn't he tell Fitz that Simmons was on a long-term mission, and just be vague about the details? It seems like this might well have avoided the complete disconnect from reality Fitz suffers in the first two episodes because of Simmons' absence, even if he was still upset by it.
- OP's theories: I suppose you can make the argument that he's keen to keep her undercover mission as secret as possible (only he and May know about it at first), but that brings up another couple of issues: first, why doesn't Coulson trust his other most proven allies - Skye, Trip, and Fitz - with the basic knowledge that she's away on a mission in the first place? It only causes them to distrust and resent her, since the idea that they've lost another team member doesn't exactly boost their morale; and if any of them end up in a situation where they're likely to disclose what they know about her mission, S.H.I.E.L.D. has more problems than blowing Simmons' cover anyway, since they all know so many other secrets. And second, isn't it at odds with Coulson's personality to essentially sacrifice one team member's sanity to add a (very minimal) layer of protection to another's cover story?
- Coulson did tell Fitz that Simmons was away on an important mission. While still being vague on the details, at least Fitz knows that at least she didn't leave because of him.
- Coulson also is now the director of an organization that was infiltrated very recently by HYDRA, he seems to be playing a lot of things secretive now. The more people know something the more likely that information (either intentionally or not)will end up in the wrong hands.
- Exactly. She was infiltrating HYDRA. The HYDRA unit she was in knew she used to be S.H.I.E.L.D.. Now they will dig. IF they are able to get information... That information is either she left her old S.H.I.E.L.D. unit OR She is on a mission for S.H.I.E.L.D. which would tell them she's in HYDRA on a mission from S.H.I.E.L.D..
Where is Deathlok?
- Coulson's hurting for resources. Hasn't he forgotten that he also has Deathlok available? I understand that he's out being The Atoner but I don't see how he would oppose to helping S.H.I.E.L.D. out. He even stated in the Season 1 finale that they can access his hardware to keep tabs on him. And I'm pretty sure HYRDA would want him back.
- Give it time, I'm sure we'll find out later in the season.
- Likely, they might have asked and he declined; he wanted to prove he was a hero, and doing so outside of S.H.I.E.L.D. might help with that.
- Coulson wanted him arrested actually, and kind of made it clear he doesn't really think he can count on Mike to do the right thing, since Mike sold him out to save his son, and willingly did HYDRA's dirty work to keep himself and his son alive. Understandable that Mike did what he did, but Coulson probably doesn't want a guy who values the life of his kid over the greater good, since Coulson would have died than serve HYDRA and thinks others should do the same.
- As it turns out Coulson has had Mike hunting HYDRA agents in Europe.
Talbot in charge
- Why has nobody pointed out that Talbot has no grounds to be smug about the S.H.I.E.L.D./HYDRA connection? The head of that cell was the Secretary of Defense - his boss - and neither he nor anyone else in the Do D noticed or did anything to stop it. There's an Air Force base not that far from DC, and yet the only air support Captain America got while trying to stop Insight came from a retired serviceman using stolen equipment (The people at the Triskelion have the excuse that Bucky trashed their planes before they got airborne, the guys at Hanscom have no such excuse, and they should have launched the moment there was gunfire reported in the skies above DC). Given that, it would make more sense to conclude that the Pentagon was highly penetrated and needs to be examined before allowing any part of the US military to start investigating S.H.I.E.L.D. for fear of giving the job to a HYDRA mole. The lead on investigating S.H.I.E.L.D. should have gone to an agency that wasn't probably infiltrated by HYDRA at high levels, such as the FBI or CIA.
- Given how deeply HYDRA had infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D., not to mention the amount of manpower and resources they have, I wouldn't be surprised if they had not only infiltrated the military, but the CIA, FBI and basically every other security and intelligence agency on the planet.
- When was Pierce mentioned to be the Secretary of Defense? And as for why the military didn't respond to the Triskelion is probably because they didn't know what was happening exactly or who to attack. Cap only tells the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents inside that HYDRA is around them.
- Pierce is referred to as "Mr. Secretary" by the World Security Council. When interrogating Sitwell, he claims the one of the targets is "the Under Secretary of Defense". The fact that he had to specify an other and assume Cap was aware of the first clearly suggests Pierce was one of the Secretaries of Defense.
- Pierce could also be the Secretary of State, or Secretary of Homeland Security. Or the World Security Council could be headed by a Secretary-General (like the UN is in real life) which is Pierce's position. Actually, Pierce not being Sec Def would make more sense, since it would explain why only S.H.I.E.L.D. was affected by HYDRA's unveiling and not any other agency.
- I assume that Pierce is the Secretary of S.H.I.E.L.D., basically authorized only to oversee any and all activities relating to S.H.I.E.L.D., likely installed by the Council.
The HYDRA Building
- Just where exactly is it? It looks a bit too out in the open to be just a secret base they can hide in.
- It's a legit office building that secretly has a HYDRA lab inside of it.
Senator Christian Ward's age
- Ward's older brother Christian Ward is set to appear in the upcoming episode "2x06: A Fractured House". The actor who will be playing him, Tim De Kay, is 20 years older than Brett Dalton. While siblings this widely separated in age are already very unusual in real life (particularly when the two are full, rather than half siblings), it becomes Fridge Logic when the flashback in The Well indicates that Ward's older brother is likely very close to Ward's age. However, it is always possible that Christian Ward is a different, much older brother, as of yet not seen or mentioned.
- A character is not necessarily the same age as the actor who plays him. Actors are often cast as characters much older or younger than they themselves are.
- His age may be a case of In-Universe Younger Than You Look; politics can be a stressful career, and stress often causes people to age badly.
- Remember when Coulson stormed the Guest House with Garett, Ward and May in TAHITI and they killed the two guards. While we know that it wasn't a S.H.I.E.L.D. base, we also know that it wasn't an enemy base because Garrett didn't have access to it. Furthermore, the Guest House was guarding Project TAHITI, which Coulson was in charge of. So does this mean that Coulson killed two innocent guards who were probably working for him?
- I never got that whole part, if the Guest House wasn't S.H.I.E.L.D. then why was Project TAHITI, which was run by Coulson, there in the first place? But yea, the guards probably weren't evil. Just doing their job of guarding the place.
- You'll note that Garrett was subtly pushing Coulson the entire time, and quietly papered over the deaths. So that's part of it. And in a later episode Coulson uses "Two men died protecting this" as evidence that maybe the serum is too dangerous to just put out into the wild. He's clearly affected by what happened, it's just at the time he didn't think he had a choice, and later there was simply nothing he could do to change it.
- I assumed the Guest House was something Nick Fury set up "off the books" as it were. Maybe a decommissioned S.H.I.E.L.D. base that was unofficially kept open, known only to a select few people that Fury trusted. A secret organization within a secret organization.
- Yes. If you get straight to it they were two good men that Coulson's actions ended up killing. Though it's notably that Ward and Garret were the ones that killed them, who were both secretly HYDRA. But Coulson tried to deal with them, and thanks to what's spiralled since then who knows what could have been and whether sacrificing them was worth it. Skye's a heroine now, and she'd have died otherwise, so all the good she does is weighed against it. But if you only look at cold hard facts then yes Coulson ended up causing the death of two good men to save Skye.
The Memorial Wall
- Is Coulson on it?
- I would assume so, since faking his death was such an important point. Fury wouldn't leave a detail like that overlooked.
Thomas Nash's voice
- In End Of The Beginning, when the agents confront Thomas Nash, The Clairvoyant apparently speaks to them via computer. Later, it is revealed that John Garrett, who is currently in that room, is in fact The Clairvoyant. So, who actually provided the voice in that room?
- The Clairvoyant doesn't work alone. He's part of an organization, so he could have had anyone else feeding lines in.
Agent 33's mask
- Okay, I know everybody keeps saying that the Melinda May mask was fused to Agent 33's face when May shoved the electric socket into her eye, but I have a hard time believing that. Mostly because it wasn't. Look at her page, it's got an image from Face My Enemy and the new episode. If you compare the iamges, you see clearly that the one in the silver dress has Maya Stojan's face, not Ming Na-Wen's. And yet when Raina runs into to Agent 33 at the cafe, she's still got the mask on. So, I ask, WHY? Why would she still were the mask when it's been destroyed? Was Maya Stojan unavailable that week or something? And if the mask IS fused to Agent 33's face (let's ignore the fact it creates a Plot Hole) why hasn't Whitehall, with his great technology, tried to remove it? Or at the very least get her plastic surgery?
- I would say that the shot of the unconscious and burnt Agent 33 with Maya Stojan's face was a very quick-and-easy-to-miss moment, so it could just be a case of them ignoring that shot/retconning the scene so they can have this 'evil person with my face' thing going on. Alternatively, we can handwave it as a failed attempt at restoring her face; maybe they tried to fuse a second May mask to her in order to cover up her burns/allow them to keep her pretending to be May, only for something to go wrong thanks to her damaged face and thus causing the mask to worsen her burns while also fusing to her face or something like that. As for why Whitehall hasn't fixed it, well, he probably doesn't care too much.
- Agreed, you would only really notice that she had Maya's face after getting the burn if you pause the episode. It was so quick it would be hard to notice normally. And for a more "in universe" answer, maybe the charge overloaded the mask revealing Agent 33's face right after the volt but returned to a normal setting afterwards, leaving her with Agent May's face.
- This is pretty well explained in "Love in the Time of Hydra." Her own face under the mask was burned, as badly as the May-mask was burned if not worse. She wouldn't want to see it in the mirror and the May face might even be less conspicuous, as hard to believe as that may be. Also, the woman is going through an identity crisis. She was brainwashed into complete subservient loyalty to a complete monster who is now dead. That could be reason enough to not want to look like herself.
Properties of the city
- Trip and FitzSimmons make a point of donning Hazmat suits to avoid what happened to Mack when entering the city. But when Trip goes in a second time, and Coulson chases after Skye, they aren't wearing suits but aren't harmed. Why? There might be a handwave with Coulson about the GH 325 altering him so that he can no longer trigger the security system, but Trip doesn't have that excuse. Also, Raina and Skye were using what looked like some kind of electric lamp while down there, while everyone else was forced to use torches. Why weren't those lights drained like everything else electric was when taken into the city?
- I assume that only specific points of the City are booby-trapped to brainwash/possess anyone who touches it. As for why the lights worked, weren't they chemical glow-stick lights, which don't run on electricity and so should be fine? I may be mistaken, but the way those things work mean they wouldn't be effected by EMPs either.
- Mack only got mind-zapped when he touched the carvings on the floor; Trip & Coulson never touched the floor bare-handed like Mack did. (Though, if Trip had been wearing his hazmat suit, he might not have gotten Obelisk'd.) As for the lights: They're basically just flashlights, a simple circuit with no EMP-sensitive electronics to it, in contrast with the silicon transistors of modern radios & remote controls.
- It appears that Trip got petrified due to a shard of the Diviner, which would have sliced through his hazmat suit if he had been wearing it. It wouldn't have done any good.
Trip and Inhumans
- Since getting hit with a fragment of the Diviner killed him, Trip must not have been worthy to become an Inhuman. But if that's the case, why didn't possessed!Mack hunt him down or try to stop him, as he did with Coulson?
- Because he was busy leading Raina through the temple, and then busy fighting Coulson. The possession is clearly just a sort of mindless drone thing, not something that allows them to use their full intelligence and reasoning, so it's not like he could set traps or ambushes or anything.
- Also Mac already had a Target, remember he was stalking Coulson at the time giving Trip an opening to both defuse the bomb and make it to Skye.
Counterintelligence in the MCU
- Everyone's hard on S.H.I.E.L.D. for not knowing about HYDRA, but let's take a look through the various security failures of the movies. Is there any counter-intelligence agency in the MCU that can honestly say they haven't seriously screwed the pooch in the past decade or so?
- Iron Man 1: #2 man at a major defense contractor sells weapons to terrorists, including brand-new designs that could only have come directly from Stark Industries, thus making the existence of an inside man involved in the weapons dealing a no-brainer.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. involvement: Attempted to act once they knew who was responsible (Which they only learned because an outsider handed them all the evidence they needed on a plate) and were involved in the cleanup after Iron Man killed the ringleader.
- Non-S.H.I.E.L.D. agency involvement: None
- Iron Man 2: Major defense contractor breaks highly unstable engineer out of prison and uses him to make an army of robots.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. involvement: Helped to contain the army of robots when it ran amok, but again failed to notice the situation until an outsider handed them evidence pointing to who was responsible on a plate.
- Non-S.H.I.E.L.D. agency involvement: Apart from War Machine, who only learned what was going on a minute or so before S.H.I.E.L.D. did, and was unable to do anything to help until Black Widow rebooted his suit, none.
- Iron Man 3: Government funded think tank turns out to be a terrorist organization, which managed to compromise the Vice President.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. involvement: None
- Non-S.H.I.E.L.D. agency involvement: Apart from Iron Patriot, everyone working on the Mandarin case was worse than useless (Only notable result of their efforts being to send Iron Patriot to various places 10,000 miles away from the real threat, one of which was a trap).
- Captain America 2: S.H.I.E.L.D. is compromised by a terrorist organization.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. involvement: Many of them were involved in the threat, but with the exception of Falcon, everyone who worked to resolve it was also a member of S.H.I.E.L.D..
- Non-S.H.I.E.L.D. agency involvement: Apart from members of various groups who were also compromised by HYDRA without being detected (Or getting any bad press out of it), thus making the problem worse, none.
- Welcome to politics, my friend. S.H.I.E.L.D. was where HYDRA was growing the whole time, to the point that S.H.I.E.L.D. sanctioned missions were actually HYDRA missions. Someone has to take the fall for that, and the World Leaders decide that S.H.I.E.L.D. should, since HYDRA had been under their noses for decades. The fact that other Intelligence agencies are terrible at their jobs is irrelevant.
- I'm not certain whether you're answering to the whole WMG or the particular point, but I believe that, whatever's the case, there would probably be some concernes within the S.H.I.E.L.D. itself or within other intelligence structures (MI-6 or CIA, to name a few more prominent/most heard of), considering that S.H.I.E.L.D. neither is above the jurisdiction of any country nor is protected by a protocol that would prevent other parties from investigating into the Division's business.
Return to the Memory Machine
- So the team learns that a killer has killed a subject of T.A.H.I.T.I. and they toss Coulson into the memory Machine from "The Magical Place" Which puts him under significant stress. Except They revealed that they have the files on dead members of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Wouldn't a search for members of S.H.I.E.L.D. who died within a certain range and had recoverable bodies, coupled with a facial recognition search for them after they died solve the problem without that. I mean, using real world logic that'd be stupid, it'd take too long and the person could kill again or be hit by a car in the meantime and they wouldn't get their answers. But somehow, I suspect it could be done as fast as a TV DNA analysis, if the show didn't want to do the above.
- Even based on TV logic, that would have been too timely and ultimately rely on making estimated guesses rather than real evidence; the memory machine was quick and accurate, even if it was stressful.
Last Name Confusion
- So, admittedly, this is less of a headscratcher about the plot, but still something that bugs the obsessive comic fan in me. How exactly do Skye and Cal have their respective last names? To explain, in the comics, Cal's full name is Calvin Zabo and Skye is named Daisy Johnson. She doesn't share her father's last name in the comics because she took the last name of her adopted family. In the series apparently her legal last name is "Poots". Currently, we know neither character's last name officially, but as far as I can tell, there is no logical way to give both characters their comic book names without just throwing your hands in the air and saying "I don't know, but that's what we're calling them." As an additional note, in theory, Cal's last name could still be Zabo, and his wife's maiden name could have been Johnson, but I somehow doubt Johnson is a particularly common family name in the part of the world she hails from.
- As you said, we know neither of their last names yet. You've got a Headscratcher about something that hasn't happened and may in fact not happen. Don't jump the gun.
- OP here... The Headscratcher isn't about wondering what their last names will be, it's about the fact that the writers have sort of painted themselves into a corner as far as being able to give both characters their correct last names without either getting really contrived or just handwaving it. So, regardless of whether or not their last names have been given at this point, it's still a valid headscratcher to wonder why they decided to make these specific changes to the characters' backstories which cause more difficulty than warranted when it comes to something as simple as naming them.
- It's really not that complicated or difficult. Names are not branded into someone and unchangeable, after all: "Skye, we found his records. Turns out your real last name is Zabo." "That man is a monster, and I don't want anything to do with him. Also that name sounds like one of the Marx Brothers. I'll just go with another name, like Johnson." "Okay, cool, I'll update the database, Daisy." "...Just call me Skye."
- Considering that 'Mary Sue Poots' has been operating under the name 'Skye' for years, and hates the last name 'Poots', she presumably already has an invented last name, to give to hotels and credit card companies and people who demand two actual names. So she could have been calling herself 'Skye Johnson' this entire time. (And never told the team or S.H.I.E.L.D. because that is, after all, a completely made up last name and they went along with her 'no last name' claim.) This does not technically give her the name 'Daisy Johnson', but it does give her all the right name parts, if in the wrong places.
- Alternatively, his real name is Calvin Johnson, but he changed it to Zabo in order to hide from HYDRA's detection so he could make his way into Whitehall's graces without him possibly recognizing his name.
- Latest episode clarified it, and I was right: Their name is Johnson, but he changed it after Daisy was taken from him. 'Zabo' isn't given, but it's implied by his comments.
Nobody owns a nail clipper?
- In "One of Us," one of the "supervillains" Cal recruits is a woman who has razorblades surgically implanted on her fingernails. S.H.I.E.L.D.'s method to contain her was to put her in gauntlets that covered her hands permanently. How, precisely, was this a better solution than just cutting off the blades?
- Well, cutting them off would have been a terrible idea because it would have left little chunks of metal embedded in her fingertips, which is medically a horrible idea. But they could have just had them surgically removed instead. S.H.I.E.L.D. really didn't even need to be involved at all; a perfectly ordinary hospital could have handled it. Honestly, just pretend she gave herself a Touch of Death with some freaky chemical concoction. It makes much more sense.
- It really does. Until they took those gauntlets off her, I was certain that's what it had to be.
- Blame HYDRA. That makes it easier. Maybe a HYDRA agent wanted her for some sort of obscure scheme.
- This bothered me for a bit too until Fridge Logic clicked in: It's entirely possible that S.H.I.E.L.D. tried to force Karla to have the blades removed surgically but her lawyer got the courts to block the procedure. As a civil rights matter in the U.S. you can't subject a competent adult to medical procedures against their will without a court order. Given that she only implanted the blades for the purposes of self-defense and (so far as we know) never used them in a criminal fashion before, the court wouldn't have a compelling reason to force her to get them removed. The gauntlets might have been S.H.I.E.L.D.'s Plan B.
- That doesn't really work either. A court could decide that removing the obvious weapons that she put on can't be done, but let S.H.I.E.L.D. put crippling metal gloves on her forever? That...just does not make sense. Also, did S.H.I.E.L.D. even go through the civil court system while they were a secret organization operating in secret? Also also, I think "surgically grafting razor blades to your fingertips" probably counts against calling her "competent."
- Since she and her abusive boyfriend both worked at a research facility, it's possible that she used some knew medication or something in the process, meaning that tthe blades couldn't be removed because no one knew what would happen if they were.
- I seem to recall someone in the episode mentioning that they would have sympathized if she had just killed her boyfriend, except she went on to kill several unconnected people. That probably rules out the civil liberties argument.
What Happened to Miles Lydon?
- I've been curious about this for awhile, but what do you think happened to Miles Lydon from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (Episode 5: "Girl in the Flower Dress"). Last we saw of him he was Dumped in Japan by S.H.I.E.L.D., without any money, and the bracelet thing that keeps him from going near computers. Since S.H.I.E.L.D. had broken down after The HYDRA scandal, didnt most of their technology get shut off, and, as a result, Miles managed to regain his hacking tricks and get back to his home in Texas?
- No. As demonstrated in "One of Us" with Cal's tech expert, the "no computers" device still works. That one was physically implanted rather than just a bracelet, but still. On the other hand, once Miles heard about S.H.I.E.L.D.'s fall, he might have gone to more effort to get it off, assuming that there would be no one to come looking for him when he broke it. He's too small fry for either the show or the new S.H.I.E.L.D. to care about.
Who took care of Buddy before Ward came along?
- In "Ragtag," Garrett took Ward hunting with his dog, Buddy, before abandoning both of them in the woods. But wasn't Garrett an active field agent for S.H.I.E.L.D. at the time? Based on what we've seen in the series, field agents are constantly on the move to the point Coulson's team live on the Bus. Who did Buddy live with while Garrett was off completing missions all over the place? Let's just hope the team never finds out that all of their troubles with Ward are the result of Garrett needing a full-time dog-sitter...
- Plenty of active duty military have pets, they simply ask a neighbor or friend to look after it. Coulson's team seems to be a unique case most agents are probably at a base until its time for a mission (Cap had an apartment in TWS)
Where does 'Real' S.H.I.E.L.D. get its toys?
- After the opening episode makes clear that Quinjets are a rare commodity, how does this secret S.H.I.E.L.D. subfaction not only have a small fleet of them that somehow were kept out of the military's or HYDRA's hands, but also have an aircraft carrier to transport them yet not be detected by either side despite not something easily hidden or supported?
- It's feasible that 'real' S.H.I.E.L.D. has some sort of financial backing and/or support from someone within the US Government. Just who they are remains to be seen, however.
- One possibility is the very common WMG: Stark is funding this, and this S.H.I.E.L.D. is the S.H.I.E.L.D. he'll be in charge of in AOU.
- Their ship is quickly revealed to be a S.H.I.E.L.D. ship that they saved on the day that S.H.I.E.L.D. fell, and they used its quinjets to rescue everyone they could from the Academy. That doesn't preclude them being funded by Tony, but it does explain where they got some of their more obvious toys.
- They started out on a carrier and proceeded to use it to gather agents and salvage S.H.I.E.L.D. stuff from all over the world. Meanwhile Coulson had to take the bus, whatever he could stuff on it in a few minutes and went into hiding before Talbot came down on them and Fury could only give them so much. 'Real' S.H.I.E.L.D. had better luck, in both having more stuff to start with, and being able to avoid the military to recover even more stuff while Coulson drew Talbot's attention.
Ward aiming for Raina in the "The Bridge"
- At the finale of "The Bridge", Team Coulson is about to meet Raina so they can exchange Mike Peterson for his son. Everyone else is on the ground, but Ward is providing cover with a sniper rifle at the top of a nearby building. When Raina comes out of the car, Ward is aiming for her, but then she moves behind a truck so Ward can't get a shot, which makes him curse angrily, "dammit!". The problem with this scene is that Ward is there all alone, with no one else within a seeing or hearing distance, and later on we find out Ward has been a bad guy all along, and she and Raina are actually working for the same boss. So why is he aiming for her, and why is he angry when his aim is blocked? There's no one around, he doesn't need to fake being a good guy.
- Well, aiming at Raina was probably the best way to ensure his cover remained intact in case anyone was watching. As for the "dammit," Garrett didn't keep Ward completely in the loop on his plans, even for things involving Team Coulson. For example, Ward didn't know that Garrett planned to have Skye shot until after it happened, and he was really angry about it. If he didn't know in advance that they were going to kidnap Coulson, then he may have just guessed what Garrett and Raina were up...and that he was about to be stuck handling a very upset and angry team (without Coulson's stabilizing influence) while trying to both maintain his cover and prevent Team Coulson from ruining Garrett's operation.
- If you watch that scene, Ward's "dammit!" is a direct response to Raina moving outside of his line of fire. If the swearing isn't supposed to be a reaction to that, then it's awfully convenient it happens at the exact movement Raina goes behind the truck.
- Yes, it appears to be in response to Raina moving behind the truck. The question is motivation. Originally, it looked like he was swearing because he couldn't adequately protect Coulson. However, it could just as easily have been swearing because Raina had suddenly diverged from whatever plan Ward expected and that was going to make his job more difficult.
Where are the Avengers during season 2
- After the events of season 1, S.H.I.E.L.D. is seriously lacking manpower, it appears they only have a few dozen operatives around the world, and Coulson's team from season 1 mostly handles the most serious situations. And they have to face some big threats, like Whitehall's HYDRA faction, which leads to S.H.I.E.L.D. losing several its their already scarce agents. Why is it then, that they don't ask for the Avengers for some help? Coulson's team has no superpowered members (at least until Skye's transformation, and she can't really use her powers yet), so Thor or Hulk or Cap or Iron Man would've been terribly helpful against villains like the Absorbing Man. You'd think Black Widow and Hawkeye at the very least would remain loyal to S.H.I.E.L.D., but they're nowhere to be seen. Where are the Avengers, having a vacation?
- Heroes don't generally cross turfs. Other than that, Coulson's S.H.I.E.L.D is an illegal organization, and Black Widow is in the middle of Senatorial Meetings. She probably can't get away, and Hawkeye is probably similarly detained. Their fame makes it hard for them to sneak off and fight Crusher Creel. They are Shadows.......a Giant Green Rage Monster does not do 'Shadows'. It smashes.
- Also, given what we know about Avengers 2, the Avengers are likely taking out their own supervillain threats elsewhere while S.H.I.E.L.D. focuses on HYDRA.
- Plus, in Cap's case, he's still likely trying to find out more about what happened to Bucky after the attack on the Insight carriers.
- Avengers: Age of Ultron sheds some light on this. In the movie it was mentioned that the Avengers had been looking for Loki's scepter for months. It is likely that the Avengers were fighting HYDRA in Europe looking for the scepter the same time season 2 is taking place.
- Post Age of Ultron:
- Black Widow, Captain America, and Hawkeye are still trying to get the Avengers back up and running after Ao U and have a few new recruits to train, namely Scarlet Witch, Vision, Ant-Man, and Falcon. Cap is also trying to find Bucky.
- Thor is trying to figure out his vision from Age of Ultron.
- Banner is still on the run.
- Stark probably couldn't care less.
- The Avengers might have been dealing with the Fridge breakout from Season 1.
Jiaying and Cal
- "Afterlife" reveals that Jiaying is alive, surviving the dissection that Whitehall performed on her years ago. So if she was alive all this time (granted she probably needed a lot of time to recover), why is Cal out to avenge her death?
- Whitehall vivisected her, and the events around her capture resulted in their daughter being taken from him, so he had plenty of reasons to go on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge even without her death. And that's assuming he's known the entire time she was alive, which isn't clearly stated in the episode; he might have only found out she was alive after Gordon captured him.
- He's the one who stitched her back together enough for her Healing Factor to kick back in, so he knew, but the story only changes slightly. Instead of a lone Crusading Widower searching for his daughter, it was both of them cutting a bloody path around the world trying to find her. Every time he saw her scars, he'd be reminded of what Whitehall did to her. She eventually realized that they had become monsters and gave up the search, but Cal didn't, and without his wife rage was all he had to sustain himself. Simple as that. The Psycho Serum certainly didn't help.
- Given what we now know about how her powers work, after being sewn together, wouldn't she still be dead. How were her powers activated to kick off the healing process?
What would they do without Gordon
- We're told that no one can leave or enter Lai Xi without the aid of Gordon. Assuming as they told they've been doing this for hundreds or even thousands of years, how the Elders get their people from and to Lai Xi before Gordon came and gained control over his powers?
- They used to have a perfectly ordinary village in China, but HYDRA raided it. Having one accessible only by teleporter is a new thing.
- Though it does beg the question of what will happen once Gordon becomes too old to serve as Lai Xi's public transport system if they haven't found a successor.
- In all likelihood, there's probably another way of reaching Lai Xi, but Gordon teleporting everyone there is useful for maintaining the location's secrecy.
- Yeah, depending on whether or not the Elders turn out to benevolent ("Afterlife" certainly hints there's something fishy going on with them), it's possible the whole "only Gordon can access this place" is a ruse they came up with to stop newly recruited Inhumans (who might not share the Elders' views) from escaping Lai Xi or revealing its location to outsiders. It's perfectly possible Lai Xi isn't even located in a remote place in China, but somewhere else completely.
- In "Afterlife", a trained agent like May should have been able to tell from the weight difference of Gonzales' pistol that it was loaded after all.
- I think it only had one round in the chamber. Not enough to use to escape but enough to allow May the actual chance to shot Gonzales.
- It might have, and if it did, the weight would not be considerably different (15 gramms inside a 1 kilogramm pistol). As this troper has already pointed out in the Fridge Brilliance part of the series, it might have been May's infamiliarity with the M1911 due to absence of practice (she might have practiced with the model back in the field agent days, but with times keener senses fade - you know how to aim and shoot it properly, much like you remember how to ride the bicycle, but you don't remember how it should weight with or without ammunition) or the expectation bias (she might have expected the firearm to weigh more than it did - 15 gramms may feel insignificant or nonexistant if you're expecting 120, though it might be a big stretch as the idea comes from a troper who has never used a gun before).
- Gonzales does unload what looks to be a full clip. Nonetheless, this is still fairly plausible. May herself says that she doesn't like to use guns, and given this week's most recent episode ("Melinda"), it's not surprising why. For the most part, she uses her bare hands or uses Night-Night guns, so she might be a bit out of touch with gun weights. Furthermore, Gonzales specifically states that it's an older piece, being a gun used in the Second World War, so she might not be familiar with the weight of that particular gun.
- He unloads the magazine (clips were used in the M1 in particular; pistols and assault rifles, among others, most commonly use magazines), but it doesn't mean it had to be full (as this troper doesn't remember seeing the content of the magazine, and this troper peered with quite some interest). A quick Google search did not prove to be fruitful, but it might be that the M1911 doesn't fire without the mag in as a safety feature. This troper's heard of the few firearms that do so, and the US Army required several safety features in order to accept M1911A1 (the model Gonzales is sporting at the meeting) as a standard issue, so it may or may not be a stretch.
Cal's "perfect" family evening
- When he first met Skye, his plan for a perfect meeting included flowers and 'little chocolate almond cookies'. We saw the flowers, but was he able to get Gordon to pick up the cookies for him?
- I imagine so? If Jiaying was also open to the dinner (which she clearly is, given she's the one persuading Skye into it), she could have easily asked Gordon to go and get cookies for them.
Pinning the blame on HYDRA
- Something that I feel deserves questioning. Throughout the "real" S.H.I.E.L.D. plotline, the go-to justifier for Coulson's actions is that he was trying to stop HYDRA. But, HYDRA were not the original reason Coulson was trying to solve the symbols or find the city; he was compelled to the point of insanity to figure it out by the GH blood in his system; the only thing HYDRA's own search did was motivate Coulson to destroy the city, not his actual search. While, as far as we know, its out of his system, in-universe all they had to go on was Coulson's word that he was no longer crazy, which is perfectly valid reason to be suspicious of his actions and decision-making. Add in that the fact HYDRA were looking for it too was a plot twist when it was revealed, you can't pin the search entirely on HYDRA, and doing so is using them as a scapegoat to justify Coulson's behaviour.
- So, what's the question here, exactly? Because if it's about them pinning the blame on HYDRA, I think that has less to do with excusing Coulson's actions, and has more to do with the fact that "real" S.H.I.E.L.D. is too wrapped up with their (admittedly, very legitimate) issues with Coulson and aren't focusing enough on the bigger issue of the fact that HYDRA is still out there (they may be crippled, but remember, cut off one head, two more grow back), and "real" S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't really seem to be doing anything meaningful to stop them.
- HYDRA was not the original reason to investigate the symbols, true. But it was the reason to find the city. By the time Coulson understood the symbols, HYDRA already had the Diviner and was actively searching for the temple themselves. So the "real" S.H.I.E.L.D are wrong about the reason to go to Puerto Rico. Coulson was already perfectly fine by then, but he still needed to make sure HYDRA couldn't get their hands on the ancient city.
- But the link between the Diviner and the city wasn't known to Coulson's team; they'd never seen it do anything but turn people to stone, didn't even know its real name (they still called it the Obelisk), and didn't even know HYDRA had it anymore (last they saw, Raina had it). As far as they knew, HYDRA were looking into the symbols, but didn't even know what the symbols meant. Basically, they should have first verified what HYDRA had before they began trying to beat them to the city, because all it did was basically lead to HYDRA stealing all their Intel once they had the chance to.
- You don't assume your enemy will remain eternally ignorant. They had good reason to believe that HYDRA, pursuing the same intelligence, could find the city with their superior resources. And how exactly are they supposed to confirm what HYDRA knows when Coulson lost both moles he had there?
HYDRA tracking Gordon
- So Gordon's teleportation leaves some technobabble trail that is detectable by HYDRA and this is what leads them to Lincoln and Deathlok at the end of the episode. Why can't they use this to find Afterlife? If anything, he should be easier to find there since he's constantly teleporting to and from Afterlife.
- It's possible they don't have satellite coverage in that area, or the detectors are ground-based installations.
- Even if they can find Afterlife, they're smart enough to realize that any place that requires a teleporter to get to isn't someplace that they're just going to walk into. Also, they don't know how many superhumans are in Afterlife. Assuming that they found away in that didn't involve using Gordon's powers, mounting an invasion against an unknown number of individuals with unknown powers isn't much of a plan.
- Okay, now this is bugging me even more. In "Scars" S.H.I.E.L.D. also tracks Gordon in the same manner as HYDRA, and they do find Afterlife with it. Absolutely no explanation is given why HYDRA couldn't.
- Hydra presumably was trying to, but hadn't been able to do so yet. S.H.I.E.L.D. is able to do it with all the groundwork done by HYDRA already. S.H.I.E.L.D. just put in the last piece of a jigsaw puzzle that HYDRA had been working on for weeks.
- What can Gordon see? He definitely has some kind of radar sense, whether paranormal or just based on Disability Superpower, because he'd need some kind of spatial relations to use his powers at all. But I have no idea what else he can see besides shapes around him and his destination. If anything. Colors? Can he read? Can he catch a thrown projectile?
- It's not defined, but at the very least Gordon can see the world around him with enough clarity that he has no trouble moving around, and clearly has an additional sense that allows him to teleport great distances very precisely.
- Gordon must be telepathic to some degree since Inhumans can apparently call him from anywhere on Earth to come get them. He also knows whether they are alone since Skye told Coulson he wouldn't come for Lincoln and her unless they were alone. Again, that could be telepathy. Given that, he could actually be making use of the senses of the people around him to "see".
- It's possible that he uses quantum entanglement to view things. Quantum entanglement allows for "teleportation" (sorta) and also for transmission of data. Perhaps some of his sensory organs (ears, whatever he has under the skin that grew over his eyes) can sense data transmitted from places he's teleported to recently - kind of like leaving microphones and cameras somewhere you visited awhile ago so you can perceive what happens there. It could also be how he sees things around him - he is entangled with the air around him to a limited degree, so he can "see" things around him. It'd fit with his preexisting ability.
So, what about HYDRA now?
- After Whitehall and the Council, Bakshi is dead now too (and was brainwashed before) and as we know from Age of Ultron, List and Strucker are dead too. Is HYDRA done for now? Or who could take leadership now?
- Like the motto says, "cut off one head, two more shall take its place." The question is who they might be and when they'll rear their ugly heads. In short, HYDRA may be down, but they're probably not gone forever.
- HYDRA is more of an idea. Carter thought she got rid of them all back in the '50s, but that clearly wasn't the case. As long as there are people with drive to see themselves above others and the resources to pursue that goal, there will be a HYDRA.
- Maybe I misformulated: Do you think HYDRA is done FOR THIS SHOW? Or will they keep appearing as antagonists here?
- In the context of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., HYDRA makes for a convenient recurring menace, so possibly not. List's fate was never confirmed in Age of Ultron, so it's possible he could return as HYDRA's leader in Season 3. Or perhaps a new character, either someone from the comics or a Canon Foreigner, will seize control. But in the context of the movies, yes, HYDRA is most likely done.
- Let's not forget, Captain America: Civil War has Baron Zemo confirmed as a character. Given his past history with HYDRA for BOTH father and son Zemo, it's probable that HYDRA still can have steam to keep going both in movies and in the show for the immediate future.
- Seems like my question is answered. Ward is now the leading head of the HYDRA!
- Why exactly is Coulson keeping secrets such a big deal? Compartmentalization is a part of all classification systems. It doesn't matter what your clearance is, if you don't have a need-to-know for the information in question, you aren't supposed to know it (for example, even if they have an appropriate clearance level, a submarine officer has no reason to know about infantry deployments, and an infantry officer has no reason to know about submarine patrol schedules). Coulson not telling people about projects they aren't involved shouldn't be suspicious, it should be routine. The only person in all of S.H.I.E.L.D. who should have any grounds to be concerned about Coulson having secrets is May, and that's purely because as his designated successor, she does have a need-to-know, so that if Coulson catches a bullet the next time he's in the field, she can hit the ground running, or failing that, at least know what she needs to be briefed on.
- That's Coulson's point, and it's a good one. On the flip side, trusting the judgment of one man with no oversight is a bad idea. Ultron was created because Thor agreed to let Tony study the Mind Gem for a few days without keeping an eye on him. Even real-world spy organizations have oversight, and one of the major problems they have is that the need for secrecy makes oversight complicated. Theta Protocol specifically was incredibly suspicious because it had twice the budget of the rest of Coulson's S.H.I.E.L.D. combined; that's really, really weird, especially when they're strapped for cash in general. May, of course, is only mad for personal reasons. Coulson could easily have told her about Andrew.
- There's a difference between 'compartmentalizing' and 'not telling agents info they do need to know'. Coulson didn't inform the agents about a number of big issues, such as his own mental health, the reason for their search of the symbols, or even what they were really after in the first mission of the second season. Theta in particular, as stated, was hugely expensive, which made it suspicious, but as stated, he didn't even tell May about it, which again as stated, he should have done so as she's his direct successor. There is a need to know basis, but Coulson wasn't telling them information that they did indeed need to know, and that's the problem.
- From what Coulson told Gonzalez about having the Toolbox possibly being temporary, it seems that he still somewhat sees Fury as really being in charge. In business terms, Coulson is CEO, but Fury is Chairman of the Board. Remember, at this point S.H.I.E.L.D. is an entirely unofficial organization with no legit chain of command. Coulson is only Director because Fury said so. What happens when Fury says he isn't Director anymore?
Expose Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. to the crystals?
- No percent is ever given for how many people are actually Inhumans. Only that they are difficult to detect even with modern genetics until after being exposed and that they have descendants around the globe. She seemed to have expected at least a few among the present crew of the ship. The powers appear to be entirely random, especially if we're talking about powers that are of use in combat. Given that was Jiaying truly so far gone that she didn't see the huge flaw with killing say 99.99% of the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. but giving the remainder super powers? Note that she only seemed to have three people with good enough combat powers to take on regular agents.
- Even if three agents did get superpowers, what would it matter? They wouldn't know how to control their powers, not to mention possible horrible mutations.
- Step 1: Expose agents to Terrigen crystals. Step 2: Isolate painfully mutated agents from other humans; help them to deal with the inevitable resulting physical and psychological issues while convincing them that non-Inhumans will see them only as a threat to be destroyed. Step 3: Stockholm Syndrome.
Terrigen crystals in the ocean?
- If fish and other ocean life are exposed to the Terrigen crystals, then would not they simply turn to stone? Or are fish and other ocean life themselves modified by the Kree?
- If the heavier metal was filtered out by them dissolving, then they'd only be eating the crystals and wouldn't petrify. Alternatively, the metal may only petrify human tissue, not animal or plant.
- Seems to be the first one. The mist was the color of the pure Terrigen Mists we saw in the Kree temple, not the gray mist normally seen from the Inhuman crystals. This will allow people to be empowered by the fish oil without leaving a trail of petrified bodies that would make the source obvious.
- Answered in the Season 3 premiere. The metal that caused the petrification effect was left on the ocean floor (where it's relatively harmless, and where S.H.I.E.L.D. might very well have made a point of burying it) while the Terrigen Mist dissipated into the water.
Kree stone security
- Why on earth would the security on the dangerous alien artifact be so weak that Fitz could open it by ACCIDENTALLY LEANING ON THE LOCK? Mack wanted the door to not be opened ever, so why did they not have better security? I know that it wasn't sealed away from everyone because they want to study it, but they couldn't have done something better for security? An eye scanner that only Mack could open (and he never would)? Two separate keys that need to be used at the same time? Heck, even a simple combination lock would have been better than what they had. We have seen S.H.I.E.L.D. use much better security, so why was this door so easy to open?
- Simmons did seem to have a You Have GOT To Be Kidding Me reaction, not to mention that it snatched her up with suspicious timing, so maybe there's something more going on that we don't know about. Maybe it has some intelligence, and sort of baited the trap? We know basically nothing about the artifact, other than something vague about it being a weapon against Inhumans.
Multiple Woman Prime
- The season 2 finale has an inhuman with the power of Self-Duplication. Her selves are seen exchanging visual signs, meaning she does not possess a true Hive Mind. They also avoid No Ontological Inertia enough to not just dissolve into nothingness when she gets knocked out. However... Rendering the original unconscious does get them all. What is the logic there, beyond a convenient way to "checkmate" this enemy?
- Could be that she can control them directly, but they can also operate autonomously. We know originally Skye was fighting the original along with clones, so it seems like once she was making a good fight of it, the prime withdrew and went into white-eye mode, either to control them directly, make more, or both. It seems like white-eye mode is the weak point, since otherwise the prime would never be on the front lines.
- It's also entirely possible that they do share a Hive Mind, but the hand signals they shared were just the girl deciding to be cute for a moment. I mean, they never make any signs indicating they were seriously communicating, so it's possible they did them moreso for personal amusement.
So can TAHITI still revive people?
- It's obviously still used to erase peoples memorie's and give them new identities, but without that blue alien guy, can they still bring people back from the dead?
- No. The TAHITI protocol originally had two steps: Inject them with a serum derived from Kree blood (the blue alien guy), and then wipe their memories and give them a new identity to keep the Genetic Memory from driving them crazy. The corpse is gone, as are any notes on the process, so resurrection and other miraculous healing is off the table, but apparently the mind wipe/new identity thing is within reach.
The Bus Team Shot Themselves In The Foot With The Whole Ward situation
- Let's see: you have a known enemy, who's dangerous and smart, claiming he wants to help and redeem himself. You hate his guts because he hurt you all a lot, but you're a spy/secret agent and the guy might be useful. Yet your idea is to give the enemy to his abuser and just being openly hostile all the time instead of buttering him up and try to mold him into as much an ally as you can for as long as you can, using also precautions just in case.
- They tried to be nice. For months between seasons 1 and 2, they offered him every opportunity for redemption if he would just work with them. He refused, insisting on only speaking with Skye. That made it clear that he didn't give a crap about helping, he just wanted to get into her pants. By the time they actually needed him enough that they were willing to send Skye down, they were done being nice, and decided to treat him as what he was: A monster hiding under a thin veneer of civility.
- Umm, that's not true and really not how things played out. First, during the first few months that Ward was imprisoned, he was suffering a mental breakdown over everything that had just happened (losing Garrett and betraying the team), to the point of trying to commit suicide no less than 3 times. S.H.I.E.L.D., at that point, should at the very least have gotten Ward some sort of therapist. Second, they weren't ever planning on helping Ward or being nice to him; Coulson said, and I quote "The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use." Meaning that the moment Ward stopped being of use, Coulson and S.H.I.E.L.D. were always planning on killing him. They never had the intention of offering him redemption.
- They knew they couldn't trust him as a field asset (he's a manipulative psychopath who doesn't care about killing others and is a very dangerous combatant, after all, meaning they would need to waste resources keeping him in line that could be used to instead do whatever tasks he would be useful for), and they got all the information that he was useful out of him as they could. By the time they handed him over, Ward had expired his usefulness as an asset, and as a spy agency, giving him to the military police was the next logical step (well, besides executing him, but it'd be harder to route for them if they did that).
- I actually disagree, I think it would have been much easier to root for the protagonists openly executing Ward themselves for his own crimes against them rather than selling him off to his abuser who be possibly tortured and executed by what would likely be a manipulated trial while letting his abuser go unpunished for his own crimes against Ward.
- The problem is that Ward is the one calling his brother an abuser. A trained agent who has lied to them since the beginning and tried to kill some of them. Not only that they treated Ward as a prisoner of a war, a war with HYDRA. Also as an asset they attempting to gain intel as you do in War. Lastly its not their place to execute Ward, on a personal level satisfying but not smart. Ward is an asset, this case he was an asset he was handed off to Government ( and by extension his brothers hands) to gain leverage. A small trade for a bigger War. Ward traded in being a team member to a tradable commodity the moment he betrayed his team. They don't need him for Intel because his Intel is tainted by his mind games. Also by then they had Bobbi and Simmons in play. They didn't need him for his skills, they had May and Tripp for that. Also Skye was becoming a highly skilled operative in the meantime and they had Hunter as well. His presence was needed for intelligence only and he wasn't serving in that capacity. So they handed off a tainted asset to gain some leverage that would help S.H.I.E.L.D. in the long run. They traded in a bad card ( Ward, skills not needed and his intelligence tainted by his manipulations ) for a ace in the hole ( the American Government looking more favourable at S.H.I.E.L.D.). That's a Win win for them, as for Ward ? Well he had been lying and twisting the truth why should they buy what he was selling? As for redemption, redemption is not given on your terms. You have to admit wrong and try to make up for it. You don't get to say mistakes where made but not by me and expect everyone to say water under the bridge. If you cant see you have done wrong then that's not redemption material. If you cant admit the harm you have done that does not scream redeem me. Also, Ward is a trained killer if he wanted to off himself he could do so. His captors and Skye treated his acts as manipulation most likely because they most probably were.
- While you may be right about many things here, the team was always planning on executing Ward. Second, Ward did admit his wrongs. Everything seems to indicate that Ward was telling the truth. Cal said that there was no Well, yet only three episodes later, we're shown the existence of the well, plus we're shown what happened in Ward's flashback, and Ward has never been shown or even hinted at having false memories. He never said "mistakes were made but not by me". In fact, he pretty much said the opposite. He said "I don't blame Garrett for the choices that I made", "I want to help you", and, when asked by Skye whether he was brainwashed, his answer was "Even though I wish I could say I was, I wasn't. Everything I did, both good and bad, I did out of my own free will." That line you said is from the final episodes of S2 and even then Ward never said "but not me", only "mistakes were made (by him)". Lastly, Ward tried to off himself, 3 times no less, S.H.I.E.L.D. was the one who kept stopping him because they refused to let him die before he served them.
- First of all Ward never admitted his wrongs, saying mistakes were made does not constitute an apology for betrayal and attempted murder. It smacks of self justification and downplaying the trauma he caused. As for his own trauma and issues including depression: So what? Grant Ward member of S.H.I.E.L.D. would have gotten aid and treatment. Grant Ward member of HYDRA who was never part of S.H.I.E.L.D. but was part of HYDRA gets treated as a prisoner of war. Grant Ward was never a member of their team, he only pretended to be. They owed Grant Ward trusted friend and team member. They owe Grant Ward infiltrator, member of a terrorist organization, nothing. You mention Ward trying to off himself as a cry for help. One, if he wanted to kill himself he could have done it the first time. He is a specialist, after all. Two, Grant Ward played victim while never apologizing with the words "I'm sorry." That is an apology, word play does not constitute remorse. Third, he was treated by Coulson as one does a dangerous enemy. His actions were his own, just like other HYDRA traitors who turned on those who trusted them. We don't see mass therapy groups for them nor him because in the real world dangerous traitors who turn on those who trusted them (of their own free will, I might add) do not get kid gloves or sympatathic ears. As for planning to execute him? That was never stated, even if it was, he killed multiple people, endangered others, and terminated a member of S.H.I.E.L.D. leadership. It's either prison or execution for said acts, not therapy. Choices made equal consequences earned.
S.H.I.E.L.D. shut down
- Am I the only one who feels that the "S.H.I.E.L.D. gets shut down" plot point was underdeveloped? They have multiple bases of operation, they're fully staffed with agents and scientists, they're not lacking in weapons or equipment, their relationship with Talbot gives them government connections and thanks to Age of Ultron they're more public than ever.
- Well, there's only so long you can keep on a plot point before it becomes Arc Fatigue. They spent time on the run and had to earn Talbot's trust and cooperation. If they kept it for too long, people would've gotten bored of the direction.
- I don't think it was really underdeveloped. It was more a specific period, and we saw them overcome it, rather than stayed in it as a status quo. Right after the turning point, HYDRA had all the upper hand against S.H.I.E.L.D.: more facilities, more manpower, more toys, less interference from other agencies, etc. But, from then on, they gradually restore their good standing, and gradually blown HYDRA to pieces. Now HYDRA is basically just Ward's band of thugs, and that was all their doing, and we saw the whole process on-screen.
Creel and the diviner
- It appears Creel's an Inhuman, what with the diviner not killing him, and the fact that it's made of an alien material would explain why he's having trouble controlling it. But why would "compliance will be rewarded" suddenly make his little problem go away?
- Creel is not an Inhuman. He managed to stave off the worst of the effects due to his unique ability, but with the side effect of absorbing the properties of the metal and randomly killing people he touches. Anyway, it's mentioned that he had trouble controlling his ability before joining HYDRA, and did so in an effort to fix it. The implication, therefore, is that part of his brainwashing involved gaining more control over his power. So the trigger phrase calms hims down and smooths things out.
- Did you miss the part where the Diviner petrified Creel after his absorbing powers were blocked?
Inhumans on the Index
- Has Gonzales ever heard the precept "Never pass a law you can't enforce?" Because that's exactly what he was doing when trying to get Jiaying to register all the Inhumans on the Index. First, while Lai Xi appears to be the only Inhuman community out there, it is not the permanent residence for all the Inhumans, possibly not even for most of them. Second, even if S.H.I.E.L.D. can track Gordon's teleporting, there's no way he wouldn't be able to use his powers to break contact with them long enough to contact some of the Inhumans living elsewhere and have them spread the word to go to ground. Third, if the named Inhuman characters on the show are a typical subset of the race, then roughly three-quarters of Inhumans can pass for human so long as they don't use their powers in public, and the only ways to test if a random person is really Inhuman are A: A DNA test (Which is time consuming and doesn't reliably identify Descendants, only active Inhumans, assuming you can get the blood sample to test in the first place) or B: A Diviner (Which kills anyone who touches it who isn't Inhuman or a Descendant, which makes it impractical as an Inhuman detector). In short, unless the Inhumans freely decided to cooperate with any initiative to register on the Index, any effort to force them to register was doomed to miss a significant number of them.
- It was a negotiation. He was basically saying "This is what I want. Tell me what you want, and we'll meet in the middle." If Jiaying had been negotiating in good faith, she probably would have pointed out that he couldn't enforce that at all, and request they be left alone completely. They'd go back and forth for a while, until they come up with something like Afterlife sharing their criminal profiles and calling S.H.I.E.L.D. when their people go missing, that sort of thing. But since the whole thing was just Jiaying looking for an excuse to start a war, it didn't matter.
Terrigen Ecosystem Spread
- I totally get that the terrigen compound from season two would spread through the ocean as dissolved things in the ocean may, but I'm not sure how it'd spread through the ecosystem per se. It isn't like it really gets carried up into precipitation because... terrigen rain would probably render the team's clampdown on fish oil redundant, so I fail to see how it'd spread to freshwater sources, or areas other than the oceans: the simulation seen in one of the early season three episodes seems to indicate that the compound has infiltrated inland areas worldwide.
- The spots on land originated where there are major populated areas, ie, areas where you'd expect a lot of marine products to end up, either directly or through byproducts, and which are themselves food distribution hubs. As the oceans become more saturated with terrigen, the odds approach 100% that contaminated material enters the food chain, and once it gets into the seafood sold in (say) the New York, Boston, or San Francisco fish markets, it quickly spreads across the country.
Inhuman "Scientists" and Terrigen Crystals
- If terrigen crystals are basically water soluble (they dissolved in seawater, after all), leaving the harmful Diviner metal as some kind of precipitate, why hasn't any Inhuman scientist figured that out? Creating pure crystals from any impure sample of a water-soluble compound is basic chemistry. Even assuming that the terrigen crystals somehow only dissolve in saltwater, they're in a world where properties of such materials can be discovered easily by scanners, ie what Fitzsimmons does a lot in season one. Wouldn't they have figured that out by now?
- We don't know that crystals that have been reconstructed without diviner metal after being dissolved in salt water would necessarily work (and given the vagueness about how the crystals were created, or how they work beyond "trigger the dormant Inhuman genes", it's difficult to speculate on whether they would or wouldn't). The crucial middle step that is working is "have fish 'breathe' the contaminated Terrigen-water, then eat them", which isn't necessarily something a scientist would think to try.
- Also, remember that a mass-empowering of the dormant inhumans is not part of their agenda: they prefer to have a strict control over who gets his powers unlocked. Unless you pass their strict tests, you do not have terrigenesis, no matter what your genes say (and, before you point it, remember that Skye and Raina got their one on a highly unusual way, not done in centuries, and unlikely to be repeated again). Even if they had the means for it, the inhumans would have not made this whole thing on purpose.
- And if you're just thinking "why not make pure-strain crystals and grow those instead in a controlled environment", it might be that they just didn't care to. Before Jiaying went to war, which made that property an added bonus, they may have just stopped at growing new crystals because the impurity was a non-issue and why mess with success.
- Clarification: Jiaying mentions in Scars that Inhuman scientists tried purifying and growing the crystals for their own purposes. Here's a quote:
Jiaying: That's why I first started experimenting with Terrigen crystals. We only had five Diviners in our possession. I knew if they were destroyed, we'd lose our ability to transform. An entire race gone forever. So we decided to make our own... Eventually, we melted a Diviner down and grew new crystals from it. Unfortunately, we could never quite separate the Diviner metal out. It's now laced within them.
- It has since been shown in the series that pure Terrigen can, in fact, be made, likely from the same precipitation-recrystallization method suggested above. Jiaying was almost certainly lying.
Daisy Johnson the 0-8- 4
- So, what exactly got Skye/Daisy identified as an 0-8-4 in the first place? She didn't undergo Terrigenesis until Season 2 of the show, so when she was a baby, she was an ordinary human for all intents and purposes. How did S.H.I.E.L.D. (or HYDRA) ever realize that there was something strange about her?
- They didn't. What happened was that HYDRA (disguised as S.H.I.E.L.D.) grabbed her mother while looking for information for Whitehall, while Cal was out. Daisy was left with a neighbor. Whitehall vivisected Jiaying and dumped her in a ditch. Cal found her, stitched her up, and started feeding villagers to her to power her Healing Factor. Then the real S.H.I.E.L.D. came, and the superior officers went ahead to figure out what was going on while the lower-ranked agents stayed behind at whatever command post they had set up. Jiaying and Cal, mistaking the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents for HYDRA, started killing them as well. One of them got away with Daisy (presumably he assumed that she was in as much danger as the rest of the villagers, not knowing she was the daughter of the assailants) and died shortly after. The lower-ranked agents found her, assumed she was at the center of the whole mess, and put her in protective custody using the codes of their dead superiors. Then Cal and Jiaying started killing their way around the world looking for her, thus fueling the rumors that she was an 084.
Why didn't Coulson just order Daisy to stay behind? (A Wanted (Inhu)man)
- He didn't want her to go and suggested Mack lead the team instead. Later, we learn this is because he had anticipated Rosalind would try to capture her and use her as leverage, which she does. He clearly saw it coming, so why didn't he just put his foot down and insist Daisy couldn't go? Then Rosalind would have nothing to hold over him, Lincoln could have been brought in by Mack or someone, and everyone lives happily ever after.
- Because Daisy was the only person on Coulson's team that Lincoln trusts at all and thus was the only person who had even the slightest chance of bringing Lincoln in. She says as much in the episode, and she's right.
- But even if that's the case A) it requires Lincoln to be monumentally stupid because there is effectively no difference between surrendering to Daisy and surrendering to Mack, he's still going into S.H.I.E.L.D. custody either way, and Daisy is still going to be doing whatever she can to look out for him, and B) Coulson showed later in the episode that he was willing to sacrifice Lincoln for Daisy's safety anyway. At least with her staying behind and Mack going, there would have been a chance to save them both.
- Mack has been all but openly hostile to Lincoln every single time he's met him, and put a tracking device on the man without him knowing. Lincoln does not trust him and that's all there is to it. He didn't even trust Daisy enough to call her until he felt he had no other choice. If Daisy isn't there to meet him, then Lincoln will not show up. Whether or not you think it's stupid, that's the fact of the matter, and that's how people work. Remember, not everyone is going to be cold and rational about their decisions. They're not making them from the comfort and detachment of a TV viewer who knows that Mack's an okay guy. B. He was willing to when he was backed into a corner, but Coulson will always go for the option that keeps everyone safe if it's at all possible. If Daisy went, there might be risk, but there's a solid chance she can get Lincoln out before Rosalind's team gets in position or she makes the deal with Coulson. If Daisy doesn't go, then Coulson definitely isn't getting Lincoln, and chances are either Lincoln dies running away/defending himself, or he kills someone else doing so. Sending Daisy was the only option Coulson really had if he didn't want a dead body at the end of the day.
- Also, the threat to Daisy wasn't just about the immediate situation. Even if Daisy hadn't gone or managed to escape from Rosalind's people, Rosalind could just post the picture she had of her everywhere and make her the new public enemy number one like she did to Lincoln. Suddenly she'd have the entire world trying to capture her, attracting a lot of unnecessary heat for S.H.I.E.L.D., and the only way she'd ever be safe is if she stayed at the playground at all times. Any chance of her ever having a normal life or even an active life in S.H.I.E.L.D. would be gone. Coulson made the deal as insurance Rosalind wouldn't do that. And like he said, he doesn't want to fight the ATCU. He's tired of wasting time and resources fighting other 'good' guys and hopes they can focus on the real threats together.
Where is Nick Fury?
- When the series began, S.H.I.E.L.D. was a big organization, led by Fury at some other place while Coulson's team deals with the crisis of the day. After the Winter Soldier, Coulson is on his own, and Fury hides himself while doing other things. Fury gets back to the action in Age of Ultron, but S.H.I.E.L.D. is now a shadow of what it used to be (and both factions, Coulson's and Gonzalez's, merged again). But where is he now? Is there something else to S.H.I.E.L.D. than the base the team is currently located in?
- Probably helping and supporting the Avengers more directly.
- Tahiti. It's a magical place. Actual Tahiti.
Simmons' sleeping habits after returning
- We saw that after she returned, Simmons slept with an improvised weapon and woke up with a start while holding it ready. But we saw later that most of the time on the planet was in a relatively secure location and she hardly needed to fight anything off. When would she acquire that habit? In fact, there is a strong feeling that "4,722" was retconned in, bluntly disregarding what we saw in earlier episodes.
- Now, for Simmons' sleeping habits, I can't say for sure, but it's possible that she could've had more near-encounters with "It," or she might have come across another form of hostile life like that plant underwater, necessitating the need for a weapon close at hand. As for "4,722" being a retcon, I have to disagree with you there; barring the aforementioned sleeping habits, we see little evidence from Simmons' behavior that contradicts what happens in "4,722."
- It's possible, but not shown or even mentioned. And her behavior after coming back has been shown to be on edge, with suggestions that she has PTSD. Nothing that we saw in "4,722" suggests she should be as traumatized as she has been portrayed.
- Well, she was stuck on an alien planet for six months and near the end of that time, she lost all hope of ever getting home. I imagine that would cause some damage to one's psyche. That said, there may be another reason as to why Simmons reacted the way she did in her sleep: We know "It" can have some sort of psychological effect to anyone who encounters "It." Granted, we don't know how the effect is triggered, but it's possible that close proximity to "It" would start the process. Before Simmons left, she was standing just outside of arm's reach of "It," so the lingering effects of the paranoia may have caused her to react the way she did, implying that sleeping with a weapon close at hand was actually a very recent behavior.
- Lets not forget that, while she had the safety of the cave, she still had to venture out for food, water, and research, meaning she was still in danger regularly (and that's assuming she didn't ever have to camp outside due to not being able to make it back the cave for whatever reason). Given the fact that, in real life, people who spend time away in hostile lands (IE, such as fighting in war overseas) will typically have a safe place they can sleep and such at, but still come back with PTSD due to the time they spend outside the safe spot, Simmons, a non-combatant, being traumatized is quite believable. On top of that, we only see her react that way once, and it was only very shortly after getting back home, right after a particularly close encounter with 'It'; for all Simmons knew, It got her and her return home was just an illusion, at least until she awoke and it was clear it wasn't just some dream.
Why doesn't Simmons tell anyone about Will?
- After Simmons gets over the initial trauma of coming back to Earth, she tries to figure out a way to get back to the mysterious planet to save Will... But why doesn't she tell anyone about the poor guy who's stranded there? Presumably this is because she doesn't want Fitz to find out about their relationship, but that since we're talking about a guy's life here, that seems like horribly selfish reason to keep a secret. And even after Simmons spills the beans to Fitz, it seems she doesn't mention Will to anyone except some of their fellow agents. Why doesn't she go to Coulson to ask whether they could put some more resources into recreating the gateway, so it's not just something Fitz tries to do between his other jobs? Also, Simmons knows NASA used to have the monolith, and apparently they know a lot more about it than S.H.I.E.L.D. does, so why doesn't she contact NASA to ask whether they can help? And presumably Will had some friends and relatives too, so shouldn't Simmons contact them to tell them Will is still alive?
- Well, if she told her story, the team may most likely assume that Will died to protect her (and that may be why Simmons took so long to explain to anyone as well; she couldn't be sure he was still alive), and that resources were better spent on current issues. As for contacting NASA, can we be sure that it was really them who held the Monolith? I know Will thought so, but it seems weird that they would have access to a gateway to another planet. I think there might be something more to the Monolith's history than we know. And in regards to contacting Will's friends and relatives, presumably she's waiting until she can be sure he's still alive and rescued.
- She's also still recovering from the experience and wasn't comfortable talking about any of it. Its not rational to keep everyone locked out, but its how many people cope with trauma, regardless of the circumstances.
Hunter, Ward and Andrew
- Everyone is attacking Hunter as if it's his fault Andrew was hurt. He didn't beat him up and try to kill him. HYDRA did. Ward had his men in place already. Is he actually going to spare Andrew if he escapes? The guy is a stone cold sociopath and HYDRA to boot. What Hunter did was the best of a crap situation. I can understand why May is upset and Coulson seems only pissed he failed. But Daisy and Mack are pretty uncool about it.
- Hunter botched the whole operation. The end was the worst ("I had a shot, and I took it." "And you missed.") but the whole thing was his idea from the start. He rushed it because he wanted it resolved before Bobbi was back in the field, he went in without any backup besides May (and didn't give her a chance to get in position anyway), and even gave Ward a warning through a Pre-Mortem One-Liner, when he probably could have gotten a good shot right then and there if he had skipped that part. Andrew wasn't actually his fault, which is why he was just ignored instead of formally reprimanded or taken off active duty. But he was far from blameless.
Why did Skye and Mac suspect Agent Banks of being Lash?
- It just doesn't make sense. When they first come across Lash in the hospital in the season premiere. Banks was with Coulson at the time. Hell, he was there when both Coulson and Price got he alert about the alteration at the hospital. When Mac, Skye and Lincoln where playing hide and seek with Lash. Banks was currently getting owned by Coulson. The time lines do not match. Shouldn't Coulson have said to Skye to scratch Banks off the suspect list because he was literally right next to me when you came across Lash?
- They didn't talk to Coulson about it. Presumably they missed him at the time or forgot about it in the face of seemingly obvious evidence.
- Actually Skye did talk to Coulson about Banks being a suspect before she and Mac went on Surveillance. Hell, Hunter went with them. He was there when Banks subdued both him and Phil. Shouldn't he have mentioned that to Daisy and Mac, that it couldn't be him because he was with us on a Train miles away while Lash tangled with you three? Two people who saw Banks on the Train at the time of the first confrontation don't say anything at all when Daisy and Mac put him forward as suspect number one.
- And to make matters worse, Hunter mentions the Banks capturing him on the train. But nobody takes that step forward and connects the dots. The whole subplot was pretty much a waste.
- It had also been quite some time since those encounters, and its unlikely they remember enough details to know they happened at the same time, or have any record they can check to make sure. If it even crossed their minds that Banks was busy at the time, its not likely they knew the exact time they were both having their encounters with Lash or Banks and could check to make sure he didn't have time to be at both.
- It wasn't a year ago, it was what three months on the outside. None the less, Phil was there face to face with Banks. Phil punched Banks in the face from less then two feet away. Hunter saw Banks manhandle Phil, not only that Timeline wise Phil and Rosalind where paged at the same time. About an Inhuman attack that was happening at the time, not one that had just occurred. Going by that, they saw Banks. Banks was with both Phil and Hunter at the time of the attack. Banks held a gun to Phil and even attempted to secure him. Both Hunter and Phil should have said that Banks couldn't have been the guy, heck they spent most of their evening with him and Rosalind at the same time that Lash was hunting down Daisy, Mack and Lincoln. Trained operative that they are they wouldn't just forgot Banks face. Not to mention it shouldn't have slipped their mind that Banks was holding them captive while Lash was in play. Doesn't make sense.
May/Hunter ethical dilemma
- In "Devils You Know" the situation with Ward threatening Andrew posed an ethical dilemma between Hunter and May. May wanted to back down so that Andrew would be spared, Hunter wanted to stop Ward from escaping with the weapons they'd provided and be able to hurt even more people. Both are rational, understandable viewpoints, and there is no clear "right" answer. So why do subsequent episodes drop this and make Hunter 100% the bad guy? Nobody brings up the weapons again, and everybody acts like Hunter just sacrificed Andrew for a shot at Ward.
- Mainly because Hunter botched the whole operation. The entire plan to get close to Ward was his, and it basically amounted to "give HYDRA a bunch of guns and hope for the best." He was trying to rush the job before Bobbi could get back in the field, his only back up was May (who he didn't even get a chance to get in position), and his Pre-Mortem One-Liner is what tipped Ward off and gave that crucial second for him to get to cover. If Hunter's plan had succeeded, I doubt he would've gotten as much blame as he did (they still would've been angry, but even May would likely approve once she had calmed down), but since the job was so sloppy, they're understandably pissed.
- You posted that in the other folder. This one isn't about why people were mad at Hunter, it's about why the original setup was dropped.
- Well Andrew does get injured, it might not be the best time to criticize May for wanting to stand down and let Ward take the weapons. Add to that the fact Hunter botched the whole thing and he's the one getting the most grief over it.
- It was never an ethical dilemma with no clear right answer. You might think that, but in show Hunter is portrayed as being in the wrong because he made a call that ended in failure. If Hunter actually killed Ward then regardless of what happened to Andrew he'd be able to boast of success. And if May forced them to let Ward go and he ordered Andrew attacked anyway then it would be May's fault for botching the mission. But Hunter's choice had them coming home empty handed, thus he gets chewed out. They're a spy organization. You don't get a reassuring pat on the back because the situation was hard and at least you tried your best. High stress situations are what they're supposed to be good at and if you make a call and fail as a result the boss won't be happy.
S.H.I.E.L.D.'s treatment of Cal and Ward
- So, I know Ward isn't exactly the best of people, but why is it that Ward, who killed, like, a few more than a dozen or so people while being manipulated by Garrett, is given constant shit and even tortured by S.H.I.E.L.D. for what he did, yet Cal, who is responsible for the massacre of an entire village in one night, and spent the next 25 years killing people, is given redemption so quickly and called "A good man who doesn't want to hurt anyone and that none of this is his fault because Jaiying has been manipulating him the whole time"? Even prior to that Skye was willing to leave him in his hometown with the promise that she would visit him. Seems kinda double-standardish to me.
- Number of kills is not the only rubric they use to judge someone. Motivation plays a huge part, as well as the fact Ward betrayed the whole team and had been working directly for S.H.I.E.L.D.'s archenemy. It's a lot more personal with Ward.
- But Ward's motivation was pretty much the same as Cal's. All that he did, he did to save the life of someone he loved, which was Garrett, his father figure, and he still ended up killing much less people in order to achieve the same objective. So why is Ward considered a pathetic loser who "dedicated his entire life to a narcissistic sociopath", but Cal is "a good man who doesn't want to hurt anyone and that none of this is his fault because Jaiying has been manipulating him the whole time"? If it's simply because it is personal, more than anything, then isn't that Protagonist-Centered Morality?
- At the end of the day Skye and the others are still people with their own feelings and shortcomings. They aren't completely objective and they're going to make decisions that might not be completely fair. On paper Cal may or may not have been worse than Ward, but most of the bad stuff he did was Offscreen Villainy. Ward's betrayal hurt them personally and that's a lot harder for them to move past.
- Normally, I'd agree with this. What bothers me is that the narrative of the story agrees with this. It doesn't portray this as shortcomings, but rather as being completely right and just. I mean, just because it was Offscreen Villainy, doesn't mean it didn't happen, Cal still murdered an entire village, while Ward killed a few more than a dozen people. Just because it hurt the protagonists more personally, Ward deserves to be constantly shut down and tortured, but Cal can easily be redeemed by the story because we didn't know any of the innocent people he killed? Isn't that literally Protagonist-Centered Morality, or at least Moral Dissonance?
- First of all, you do know S.H.I.E.L.D. never tortured Ward right? You're using torture as why they treated Ward worse then Cal. S.H.I.E.L.D. never tortured Ward, they imprisoned him as a dangerous terrorist ( as you do for people who are part of terrorist organizations ) but never tortured him. Ward harmed himself while they locked him up. So trying to use that as justification as how he is being treated worse then Cal doesn't work. Second they gave Ward a chance to redeem himself in the second part of season two, they offered him project Tahiti and Ward decided to torture a team member and attempt to kill more S.H.I.E.L.D. agents in the name of closure. Cal actually attempted to do the right thing, helped stop Jaying. Hence he got a fresh start. Third, Ward was treated no worse then Cal despite how he affected his team and S.H.I.E.L.D. more. His betrayal cost S.H.I.E.L.D. one of their leaders. His attempted murder of Fitzsimmons lead to permanent damage emotionally and mentally. His intel and actions lead to dozens of superpowered and dangerous criminals loose on an unsuspecting public and advanced weaponry in hands of HYDRA. Damage wise, numbers wise Ward has done more damage. Lastly, both where treated the same, as dangerous criminals. But only one of them tried to make at least half an effort to he right thing. Hell, the only semi-decent thing Ward did was leave Kara with S.H.I.E.L.D. Event that of was one his ploys to kidnap Bobbi to brutally torture Bobbi ( actual Torture that happened, unlike Ward's case) in a hypocritical attempt to get her to admit she did wrong,while he never has. In summation S.H.I.E.L.D. treated Ward and Cal EXACTLY the same. Damaged and dangerous people. One got a second chance for his actions, the other did not for his actions
- Yeah, they did. Fitz suffocated Ward in his cell by lowering the oxygen levels to low. That's torture. Second, it took Ward being imprisoned for months (during which time they were always planning on killing him), tortured, and sold off to his abuser before Coulson finally gave him a chance to redeem himself and it wasn't even because Coulson wanted to, but because he had no other choice but to give that to Ward in order to find Skye. Third, Ward was trying to do the right thing in the beginning of the second season, he was giving info on HYDRA, not lying, telling Skye about her parents, and gave S.H.I.E.L.D. Bakshi, the fourth of which he did even after S.H.I.E.L.D. sold him off to Christian, and for all of this, S.H.I.E.L.D. was still trying to kill him. Fourth, Cal also let super-powered and dangerous criminals loose on an unsuspecting public. Not only that, but when some of them wanted nothing more than to live a normal life, Cal was the one who convinced them they needed to get revenge on S.H.I.E.L.D. and proceeded to take an entire high school hostage. Add that to the fact that Cal murdered an entire village of innocent people on his first night of a 25 year killing spree, and he has way more blood on his hands than Ward, and no, the fact that his crimes affected S.H.I.E.L.D. in specific less doesn't make it better because he still murdered hundreds innocents (in one night), possibly more. And lastly, no, they didn't treat them the same, they only treated Cal as damaged and possibly dangerous. Ward, they only treated as dangerous. Coulson treated Ward as if he was pathetic for doing what he did to save the life of someone he loved like a father who was manipulating, and then he and S.H.I.E.L.D. repeatedly tells Ward to take responsibility for his actions, despite the fact that Ward has multiple times, but then turn to Cal and pretty much exonerate him of any responsibility of his own actions by saying "You're a good man who doesn't want to hurt anyone. None of this is your fault. It's Jaiying's; she made you do this" despite the fact that he's killed way many more people, as if Ward can't say manipulated by Garrett (which he doesn't) but Cal can say he manipulated by Jaiying. So no, it wasn't the same. S.H.I.E.L.D. offered Cal redemption on a silver platter after pretty much exonerating him of all his evil actions because "Jaiying made him do it", while Ward had to actually go through much more, despite having done much less, got shit throughout his, and was only offered because S.H.I.E.L.D. had no other choice.
- Okay Fitz torturing Ward does not count as S.H.I.E.L.D. torturing Ward. Fitz one person doing one act, S.H.I.E.L.D. torturing Ward would be tearing out finger nails. One person acting does not count as torture by S.H.I.E.L.D. Ward was imprisoned, not tortured. You keep saying he was imprisoned for months and tortured. Imprisoned, yes for being a member of a terrorist group and killing S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. As for planning to execute Ward at a later date, they never said they planned to do that. Also even if they did, he was part of a group that murdered S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. Saying Centipede was never part of HYDRA does little comfort to the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents that they killed. Murderers get death row, Ward is made exempt how? But he was never tortured, you keep saying he was but ne never was. Also in show he refused to talk until he got what he wanted. Which was to talk to Skye, which he tried to manipulate into helping him escape. He didn’t give them any Intelligence until he got what he wanted. That is not helpful to them, as for being sold off they exchanged a genuine prisoner who committed criminal acts to a legitimate government body. As for Coulson offering Ward a way out to find Skye, he gave Ward a person who in no way earned it. A chance at a second chance in order to save a fellow agent. Ward showed no indication of guilt for his actions, never indication of remorse. Only using his intelligence in order to get closer to Skye. He was given a second chance he did not deserve and used it to put a damaged Agent 33 in place in order to kidnap and torture Bobbi. The original point was why Cal and Ward where treated different. In the end, both Cal and Ward where treated the same. They where locked up for being dangerous and unstable murderers. Ward was never tortured, not by S.H.I.E.L.D. the only harm came at his own hands and Fitz’s hands.The only difference in the two is that one tried to make up for it.
- Fitz is a member of S.H.I.E.L.D. and asphyxiation is a form of torture, so yes, Ward was tortured. You're basically saying that it doesn't count because it wasn't harsher. That's like saying that a waterboarding someone isn't a form of torture because the victim isn't being electrocuted, so it doesn't count. Yes, they were always planning on killing Ward; Coulson stated, and I quote "The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use" meaning that the moment Ward stopped being of use, they were going to kill him. I never said Centipede wasn't a part of HYDRA. Ward may be a murderer, but he only killed a few more than a dozen people, whereas Cal murdered several hundred people, so if Ward gets the death row, so should Cal, cause the man literally committed genocide in one night-the first night of a 25 year killing spree. Instead, Skye at one point nearly let him walk away from his crimes when she almost left him in his hometown, even saying she would visit him, and Coulson saying that none of his actions or murders were his fault and that he couldn't be held responsible because "Jaiying". Ward did provide intelligence to S.H.I.E.L.D. at the end of the day which was useful to them, info that even ended up saving Simmons' life at one point. Coulson even says specifically that that's the only reason that Ward was kept alive, because he was "useful". Next, they sold Ward off to a member of the government who was clearly biased against Ward in the whole thing, if they wanted to actually do the right thing, they would have given him off to someone who didn't have a reason to want Ward dead (namely to cover up what he did to Ward and Thomas as children). Ward earned that chance way more than Cal did. Ward committed way less crimes and killed way less people, yet did more to make up for his crimes and help S.H.I.E.L.D., and was given more flak for it throughout the whole ordeal. Cal murdered an entire village and took an entire high school hostage, among other things, and Coulson says that he is a good man who can't be held responsible for his actions and then offers Cal redemption just like that. So no, they weren't treated the same. Cal who has the blood of hundreds on his hands, was locked up for a few hours and offered redemption after pretty much being denied responsibility for his crimes because of Jaiying. Ward was tortured, saying that Fitz doesn't count is like saying someone was never tortured except for that one time were they were waterboarded, but that doesn't count. And Ward did try to make up for it. He spent the first half of the entire second season trying to make up for what he did, and S.H.I.E.L.D. consistently shut him down in all opportunities until they had no choice but to ask for his help. All this because he killed a few more than a dozen people. Cal, who killed hundreds, was offered redemption just like that in a single episode out of nowhere.
- Let's put things into context: Ward is a remorseless psychopath and accomplished manipulator who would gladly kill anyone at the drop of a hat (and this is before Garret got to him). In contrast, Cal is a family man who was manipulated by his wife into committing horrible acts. Motivation does matter here, and while Ward is clearly enjoying being a murderous asshole, Cal obviously hates how he's become a monster. It's also worth noting that the village Cal and Jiayang first massacred was filled with HYDRA agents, so they kinda had it coming. As for the two of them not being treated the same, they technically were. Fitz's attempt to kill Ward was a one off thing (since Fitz wasn't even supposed to know he was there), but if you count that as being tortured, then Cal has also been tortured, since Coulson set the cell temperature to drop to freezing while he was in there. So both of them have been held in inhumane environments, and tortured by S.H.I.E.L.D. As for the chance at redemption; Ward earned that chance way more than Cal did, yes, they offered that opportunity several times. He rejected every oppurtunity. Ward wasn't giving intel on HYDRA out of the goodness of his heart, he was doing it so they would send Skye to talk to him. In fact, he flat out refused to give them anything unless Skye was there, so he wasn't trying to redeem himself in the slightest.
- Um, Ward only tried to kill his abusive family at that point as revenge for what they put him through, which was also the reason Cal killed the HYDRA agents that he did-revenge. If Ward wasn't "manipulated by Garrett" because he tried to kill someone who had caused him pain beforehand, than the same can be said about, as Cal when he found Jaiying's mutilated body on the ground and said that he would "murder all of them!", and it's highly unlikely a vivisected Jaiying could do much. As for the village and the HYDRA agents, those were separate incidents, and Cal also displays lack of remorse and seemed to enjoy being a murderous asshole, as when Coulson asks Cal how he murdered an entire village, Cal's reply is "With style!", or when he breaks into a S.H.I.E.L.D. compound and frees super-powered criminals and urged them to take revenge on S.H.I.E.L.D. by taking an entire high-school hostage, despite some of the criminals just wanting to leave a normal life. Same also applies for Ward, as there are moments where he displayed an uncomfortableness killing, like when asked Garrett about what happened to doing this whole thing without any bloodshed, or when he was horrified with Garrett killing a man with his own rib. Both Cal and Ward have had their moments gleeful murderous assholes and uncomfortableness with killing. The temperature thing I'm pretty sure wasn't S.H.I.E.L.D. but a result of Cal ingesting the Hyde Formula. As for the the opportunity, yeah, Ward "could" have given information, and it still wouldn't have mattered because, as Coulson said, he would never be one of them and they only kept him alive because he was of use, meaning they were planning on killing him the moment he stopped being of use to them. And even after that Ward kept trying to help them by handing Bakshi over to S.H.I.E.L.D. and infiltrating HYDRA. Same goes for Cal, he wasn't trying to redeem himself, he killed for the same reason he's always killed-Skye. So at the end of the day, they had the same motivations, Ward wanted to save Garrett, Cal wanted to save Jaiying and Skye. Ward, who personally killed a few more than a dozen people, spent an entire half season trying to redeem himself and being shot down and told he can't blame Garrett (which he never did) and only given a chance when the heroes had no other option but to give him a chance, while Cal, who murdered hundreds, is said to be a good man who can't be held accountable for his actions because Jaiying manipulated him and offered redemption in practically an instant.
- Cal wanted redemption. When they tried to offer Ward redemption (at the end of season 1 when they captured him), he ignored them for months, refusing to speak to anyone but Skye. Cal admitted what he did was wrong, but decided his family was worth it. Ward refused to accept responsibility for a single thing, and only gave S.H.I.E.L.D. information in an attempt to make Skye like him so he could get in her pants. They're nearly opposite situations.
- Umm, so did Ward. At the end of Season 1 when they captured him, the reason Ward ignored them was because he was suffering from a mental and emotional breakdown where he literally tried to kill himself no less than 3 times. And even then S.H.I.E.L.D. was never offering Ward redemption, as Coulson himself said Ward was never going to be one of them and that the only reason they kept Ward alive was because he was useful, meaning that the moment he stopped being useful, they were planning on killing him all along. Redemption was never on the table. Ward did what he did because he also thought Garrett was worth it, the same way Cal thought his family was worth it, and Ward did accept responsibility several times, he even said "I don't blame Garrett for the choices that I made" and when Skye asked him if he was brainwashed, he said "No, I wasn't brainwashed. Everything I did, good and bad, I did out of my own freewill" and when asked why he was being honest, he replied with "Because I want to help you." So the situations are pretty similar.
- At the end of the day, both Ward and Cal were offered the same end. Tahiti to revamp them. Cal took it. Ward refused and in fact took advantage of their kindness to kidnap Bobbi to torture her. Hence why they view him as an irredeemable monster. It also helps that Cal actively turned on Jaiying and helped them stop her. Ward did not. He served Garret to the end, and the only reason he stopped was because Garret died. When they called on Cal to do the right thing and help them stop her, Cal did. When they asked the same of Ward he dropped Fitz and Simmons in the ocean. So yeah, they treat Cal better because he tried to better himself. Ward never has. The instant he was free he went right back to being a murderous treacherous jackass following his own personal agenda. Ward's had plenty of chances. He blew them all.
- My problem isn't that they were both offered redemption, I'm all for redemption for everyone. My problem is how the situation is treated in comparisons. The same way Ward always killed for Garrett, Cal always killed for Jaiying and Daisy. All Coulson did was essentially make Cal choose one of the two reasons he's always killed for. And at the end, Ward killed, say, a few more than a dozen people and is told to take responsibility for his actions despite having done so multiple times, whereas Cal still murdered hundreds of innocents and Coulson says that he's "a good man who never wanted to hurt anyone and that none of his actions are his fault because of Jaiying." That's kinda my dilemma with the whole situation.
- S.H.I.E.L.D. treated Ward and Cal fairly similar actually on a whole. On the surface it might seem as if they treated Cal better it is only because the end result is Ward is still a hated enemy and Cal got a second chance. Coulson only offered Ward and Cal a second chance when he needed their help with something. It is important to note because this means if he hadn't needed them he would have probably never offered either this deal to begin with. Coulson wasn't being completely biased toward Cal. Both Ward and Cal helped Coulson out and he was going to reward them both with the memory wipe deal and give them a second chance at life. However, Ward rejected the offer. Now we were originally led to believe Ward rejected it because he felt he was beyond redemption and just wanted Kara to get a second chance, a move Coulson was impressed with and made him think Ward could change. The problem here is that it was another act so Kara could get close enough to kidnap Bobbi and they could torture her to give Kara's "closure." The show explores this action in depth by explaining how Ward's actions are inherently selfish and instead of doing what was best for Kara he manipulated her the same way Garret did him even if it was unintentional on his part. Bobbi rightfully called him out how despite his attempts to change he never accepts any accountability in his actions and seeks to blame someone else entirely. The end of the season reinforces this as Ward blames all of S.H.I.E.L.D. entirely for Kara's death, while he doesn't accept any fault on his part despite basically leading Kara down this path and hurting other innocent people. Ward blew his second chance because of his own inability to accept any responsibility for his actions and his own poor decisions. Cal helped Coulson save Daisy. Yes, while it seems hypocritical for Phil to sympathize with Cal and not Ward, we also have to remember Coulson is a master spy. He was intentionally playing on Cal's feelings for Daisy and Jaiying to win him over. He might not actually believe Cal isn't responsible for his actions just because Jaiying. Now Cal did what was best for his daughter. He stopped Jaiying and spared Skye/Daisy the trouble of having to kill her mother. That shows both Phil and Daisy that despite all the terrible things he did that Cal really does love Daisy and is capable of doing the right thing at expense to himself. Afterward Coulson agrees to give Cal the second chance, but lets him know it means he will lose his memory of both Jaiying and Daisy and be given a new identity. This is important because while Cal gets a second chance it is not entirely without cost instead of letting Cal go free with his memories intact and escape justice completely. Now up until that point Cal has been determined to get Daisy back. He could have raged at Couslon and demanded since he helped that he should go free with his memories intact or want Daisy to go through it as well so they can start over together. In the end Cal accepts the condition and doesn't try to force or press Daisy to leave S.H.I.E.L.D. and start over with him. He did what was best for her and accepted this second chance comes with a price. Up until Coulson gave Ward and Cal the offer for their services he treated them both as enemies and dangerous. The reason he and S.H.I.E.L.D. treated them different is because Ward continued to go down his dark path, while Cal realized what he was doing was harming his daughter and did the right thing.
- I would normally agree if not for a few things. First being that Ward has taken responsibility for his actions multiple times in early S2. The whole "Ward never takes responsibility for his actions" is a trait I never saw up until the final episodes of S2. While in the Vault, Ward said that "He doesn't blame Garrett for his actions." and that he only wants to help Skye and S.H.I.E.L.D. When Skye asks him if he was brainwashed, Ward's response is "No. Everything I did, good and bad, I did out of my own free will." As for Cal, while Coulson may have not been honest when he said that, there's nothing to indicate he wasn't; no "Director, did you really mean that?" "No, but we need his help." or something similar, so for all intents and purposes, Coulson really did mean what he said when he told Cal he can't be held responsible for the hundreds of people he killed. And he did act sympathetically towards Cal on multiple occasions, such as the S2 midseason finale, where he told Cal "I don't want to fight you, and the end of the day, we both want what's best for your daughter." And finally, Cal's memory was erased at Skye's request to erase the pain of having killed Jaiying.
- Just going to answer all these points as clearly as possible:
- In the scope of their crimes, Cal did less for better motives. While Cal did go on a 25 year killing spree, he did so against those connected with his daughter's kidnapping and his wife's near-murder/mutilation, IE, members of HYDRA, or members of S.H.I.E.L.D. who were being used by HYDRA (and to Cal, both groups were the same). Ward meanwhile killed and assisted in the killing of honest S.H.I.E.L.D. agents and law enforcement, knowing they were innocent when doing so, as well as emotionally manipulating numerous individuals, and as noted above, he helped in making sure HYDRA had the upper hand against S.H.I.E.L.D. While he did so to help Garrett, he was shown taking sadistic pleasure in a lot of it, while Cal, while hammy during the acts, was shown feeling disturbed and ashamd of his crimes and of who he became.
- Mentally speaking, Cal was more damaged. Ward was from an abusive home note and was raised by a sociopath note , but he's shown to still be a highly functioning individual capable of being charming and affable, and calculates all his actions. Cal, on the other hand, is legitimately mentally unwell thanks to his formula and has no impulse control. Whenever the two did anything wrong, Ward did so after thinking it through and planning exactly what he'd do, while Cal reacted purely on instinct. Basically, Ward's were premeditated, Cal's were crimes-of-passion, and in real life, the latter does afford more sympathy and lesser sentencing, which would explain any differences in their handling.
- Even when doing good Ward did so for horrible motives. He helped S.H.I.E.L.D., but only because he thought it'd impress Skye so he could get into her pants; he didn't do them because he knew it was right, but because he wanted to look better. Essentially it was the same kind of tactics stalkers and individuals with entitlement issues do to earn affection from their targets. He later helped take down the rest of HYDRA, but again, just so he could earn favour with them to help Kara capture Bobbi. Compare to Cal, who helped S.H.I.E.L.D. save Daisy not because he wanted anything from Daisy, but because he wanted to save her; he didn't betray S.H.I.E.L.D., and when it was all over he surrendered and underwent TAHITI, while Ward purposely refused that and is now running around planning S.H.I.E.L.D.'s demise.
- When Coulson buttered Cal up and told him he didn't blame him for his actions, as said above, it was to get him to stand down so he'd help. It was negotiation tactics, and he used the same on Ward when he needed his help as well fighting HYDRA (telling him he knows there's good in him and offering him a second chance), and is fairly normal when dealing with someone you believe can be talked down. He was softer with Cal, but again, this is because Cal is mentally unwell, and people with mental illness acting in a violent manner generally just need someone to talk them down. Just because it was never shown that Coulson didn't believe what he was saying doesn't change this as the reasoning for it, and to be honest, if they took a moment to hve him clarify to someone that he didn't mean it, it'd be a waste of time and really come off as a Kick the Dog moment on his behalf.
- Lastly, in terms of sympathy, Coulson only gave Cal sympathy after Daisy told him to; before he was reunited with her, he treated Cal as a dangerous monster and showed little respect for him, not too differently than he did Ward. It wasn't until he had reason to view him differently did he do so, which, lets remember, he did the same with Ward; when Ward did his fake-I Want My Beloved to Be Happy moment, making Coulson think he wasn't completely evil, Coulson was empathic towards him, just as he was to Cal.
- Basically, while one could argue they were treated differently, this was in large-part in reaction to what they'd seen or knew of the two, and was down to the differences between them in terms of actions, motivations, and mental states.
- Ward's younger brother puts the matter succinctly: Ward never accepted responsibility for his actions, always finding a way to blame others when he did wrong. It was always someone else's fault. Cal accepted when he did wrong. In real life terms, if both were up for parole, Cal would likely get it for accepting his criminal actions while Ward would keep insisting he was really an innocent victim of society.
Why is Mack the Acting Director and not May?
- In "Closure", Coulson made Mack the Acting Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. while he left to pursue vengeance against Ward. At the same time, May was already his Number Two at S.H.I.E.L.D., so why did Mack get promoted (even temporarily) over her head?
- Mack asks the same question. May is still dealing with the whole Andrew situation and isn't ready to step up in a leadership spot. And Coulson wanted someone in charge without a grudge against Ward, someone who would be more objective.
- And Mack is also the guy who actively opposed Coulson last season. Basically he wants someone with a level head who won't just try to do exactly what Coulson does.
- Not just last season; earlier Mack had confronted him on his feelings for Rosolind to make sure he wasn't compromising himself. Mack is the only one Coulson knows isn't afraid to question him.
- After Simmons was swallowed by the rock, Coulson made a summary of all the things that Fitz has been doing between seasons searching for her. One of those things was "After hearing about the Pym technologies disaster, you even thought she'd been reduced to a microscopic level. But no evidence supported that." Excuse me? What tests could have Fitz made to rule out Pym particles? It's a huge classified information, only Henry Pym knows about it (and specifically wants to keep S.H.I.E.L.D. away from it), and whatever Cross has discovered has all its specifications lost in the disaster (which was the whole point of the engineered disaster).
- Pym worked with S.H.I.E.L.D. until the 80's at least, they may have enough information to conclude no Pym Particles were involved in the incident with Simmons. For example S.H.I.E.L.D. may know of a specific energy signature that shows up after Pym Particles are activated and merely looked for that signature.
- When Coulson sends a team to look into the HYDRA-NASA cult, Fitzsimmons and Banks (along with some ATCU personnel) go check it out. And then get their butts whopped by a single Inhuman. That made me wonder why Coulson didn't send Daisy out with them. As far as I recall, there was no reason not to - Bobbi would've reported the Telekinetic Asian Man (TAM) to Coulson, giving him reason to send an Inhuman along with their search team. Even if TAM wasn't specifically there, shouldn't he have anticipated that some Inhuman guards would be present at the facility of a group that's been harvesting them? Additionally, why was Fitzsimmons so badly-armed? They had no guns, no EMPS, no anything besides phones. Not even the dwarves. Is it just them grasping the idiot ball?
- Coulson was so angry about Ward he wasn't thinking straight, and didn't realize it was also a trap. He even smashes his phone when he realizes this.
- Also those other agents were S.H.I.E.L.D. (all black uniform) not ATCU (blue digital camo uniform).
Why does HYDRA need Fitz and Simmons?
- I know the supposed justification is that Simmons was able to calculate where the portal would appear, and they don't know how to do that. But why do they need to? When Fitz got Simmons back, he didn't need the portal's location. He just forced it open and then shot a flare through it to show her where it was. Hasn't HYDRA ever thought of doing something like that? They already have a machine that can open the portal so that wasn't the issue.
- The portal is constantly moving across the planet, that's why Simmons and Will had to do complicated calculations to find out where it appears next instead of just hanging around the area where Simmons fell through. Firing a flare only helps if the portal's location happens to be near enough that you can see it, and we're talking about a whole planet here, plus the visibility on the its surface isn't very good to begin with. Admittedly it was ridiculously lucky that Simmons happened to be near the portal when Fitz shot the flare, but obviously HYDRA can't depend on such luck.
- They've also both been on the planet (Fitz only for a limited amount of time, but still, he's heard enough from Simmons to have a good idea of what it looks like), meaning they'd be useful guides to find It, and when It takes their bodies, it will know how to find the portal itself.
HYDRA's true goal
- How did HYDRA's plans in the movies advance their true goal? The Tesseract might have been a useful tool to try to retrieve their hidden leader, but the Red Skull never tried to find applications that could be used for that purpose, he just built weapons and tried to conquer. Insight might wipe out all possible opposition, but at the time nobody was opposing them because nobody knew they existed. They could have continued their Monolith research unmolested if they'd just stayed discreet. How does trying to take over the world help them investigate an alien rock and rescue the being trapped on the other side?
- Hydra had been around so long, and had so many "heads" at this point it's original goal seems to have been long forgotten by many. Malick seemed to be one of the few higher ups if any that even remembered the original goal. Skull and Pierce and Strucker were in it for power and domination.
- And Malick mentioned Garrett as someone only out for himself.
- Plus, conquering the world is beneficial all around. They'd be able to work to retrieve It more easily and with more resources, and when It comes back they can just hand It the world all gift-wrapped.
- Zola said it best: HYDRA's entire reason for existing is their belief that humanity cannot be trusted with freedom and needs to be controlled. The last time It tried to rule the world, it was overpowered and banished; they need to ensure that the world will kneel before It before they bring it back and risk something worse happening.
- In all likelihood, it's a combination of both factors: the leadership of HYDRA who aren't in the know (ie, Skull, Whitehall and Strucker) want to conquer the world for their own sake and power, while those in the know, like Malick, want to conquer the world so they can bring "It" back, while simultaneously handing over a giftwrapped world for when "It" returns.
- I know Malick said HYDRA has been around longer than the Red Skull, but I don't really think his HYDRA was necessarily the same as the Red Skull's. Remember Malick said the organization had many different names over the centuries. The chances are Red Skull might have heard of an ancient sect or order (the movies established he was a big buff on that type of thing) and was inspired to create his HYDRA. At least back in WWII his HYDRA's goal was conquest. I think Malick's order more or less just integrated into HYDRA when Zola reformed it within S.H.I.E.L.D. over the years when he was picking like-minded followers (which people of this sect would probably be). HYDRA's end goal has always been world conquest, but each head as mentioned above has their own idea of how to do it. Red Skull planned to use the cube and new tech to conquer the world. Zola wanted to make people so afraid that they willingly gave up their freedom for security. Strucker wanted to create enhanced people and use alien tech to conquer the world. Whitehall wanted to use the obelisk. Now that Malick is head he wants to free the Inhuman as his HYDRA order originally wanted to do centuries ago. Whoever is head is the one who decides where to take HYDRA as a whole and some act on their own (Strucker gave up other HYDRA cells to the Avengers to buy time for his plan). All in all I doubt Red Skull's HYDRA was connected to the old order Malick was describing and that the two HYDRA didn't become one until Zola's reign as head.
- "Paradise Lost" seems to confirm that there were/are two separate blocs within HYDRA: The group who followed the Ancient Cult like Malick and his family, and those who followed the Red Skull's goals on scientific knowledge like Whitehall. While both groups ultimately wished to conquer the world, they clearly disagreed on the methods and motives for doing so. Because of this, we can safely assume that the majority of HYDRA we see in the movies subscribed to Red Skull's philosophy over Malick's.
Off the books
- Coulson makes Mack acting director of S.H.I.E.L.D. because he feels he needs to go "off the books" to take down Ward, but shouldn't all of S.H.I.E.L.D. be off the books since it's supposed to be shut down? Who would Coulson need to answer to if he had dragged all of S.H.I.E.L.D. into his revenge mission.
- Coulson does answer to someone; the last season saw him turn the Leadership of Real S.H.I.E.L.D. into his own World Security Council. While many of their members are dead and/or not shown acting as such, its still been shown Coulson does have accountability to others (note Mack confronting him about his relationship with Rosolind, in a manner more befitting a supervisor than a subordinate). It seems that, while Coulson is in charge, he answers to the team, to avoid him being able to make orders without question.
- I don't think he wanted all of S.H.I.E.L.D. to be involved in his revenge mission since he was going to do whatever it took to finally get to Ward.
Why is Coulson killing him bad?
- The way Fitz reacted to Coulson killing Ward seemed off to me. I know they do not normally kill their enemies when they can help it, but Coulson approved of Hunter's request to kill Ward. The rest of S.H.I.E.L.D. knew about this. Why does Fitz act so surprise when Coulson does this and seem to treat it like a terrible deed? Yes, I understand it is out of character for Coulson to kill someone in cold blood and ideally they should rise above the bad guys' methods, but can killing Ward at this point considering everything he has done and will likely do and redemption seems out of the question with him (in Ward's mind he has done bad things for the right reasons and is basically the hero in his own mind) be that bad of a thing?
- It wasn't killing him that was the problem. It was killing him slowly and painfully when they had seconds to spare. It was Revenge Before Reason. If Coulson had just shot Ward in the head, Fitz would have given him an approving nod and that would have been the end of it. Still, it's not like Fitz had a major freak out over this. He just gave Coulson a look that said "...dude. You have issues. It would be nice if we had a psychiatrist who isn't a rampaging monster."
- Ward was already severely injured and about to left on a barren hostile planet. He was a good as dead, as Fitz says himself to just leave him, but Coulson who's always been level headed with Fitz, almost pisses away their chance to get out just to basically watch Ward die. It's not like Fitz wanted Ward to live, as he clearly wanted to ditch him there, but that act was much more brutal than Coulson's ever been and it scared Fitz.
- It's not a bad thing that Coulson killed Ward, the issue is how he did it. Practicality would be to just put one in the head and leg. However, on a personal level Ward is a reflection of Coulson's personal feeling of failure. He had Ward imprisoned for a year and kept him for intelligence that he never provided until Skye asked. Coulson imagines all the people who would still be alive and unharmed if Coulson had simply traded him to the government earlier or just executed him for his crimes. We know with the "Real" S.H.I.E.L.D. problems and the almost Inhuman war it made sense to put Ward on the back burner. Coulson (logically) prioritized other objectives. Because of this, Ward killed a woman that Coulson had developed real feelings for. Coulson took time out to kill Ward because Ward was his mistake. A he said, how many people had Ward killed and hurt? Coulson took part of the blame because he feels he should have seen it coming, should have never underestimated Ward when he was in the wind. Coulson, direct and focused Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. would have shot him in the head. Coulson, human, still suffering PTSD from his hand, still suffering from the loss of Roselind, sees the man who he trusted who betrayed him. Sees the man who tortured his agents and tried to kill Fitzsimmons. Sees the man who manage to kill a woman he could have loved in front oh him. Coulson acted like a human and ended the life personally, up close to give himself a sense of (ironically) closure.
Why were Will and the other astronauts sent to the planet instead of HYDRA men?
- In "Many Heads One Tale", we learn that it's HYDRA who's been sending men to the mystery planet throughout the centuries, and in "Maveth" we find out that this is most likely because "It" (later revealed to be Hive) is a parasite, who constantly needs new hosts. But Will and his crew were different: they'd been given a thorough training (which must've lasted months if not years), and they were provided with expensive technology to study the planet. If they were just sacrifices to Hive, HYDRA wouldn't have spent all those resources for their mission, so clearly they have a different goal. Most likely their mission was to figure out how to get back through the portal, so that Hive could return to Earth, as Malick states this is HYDRA's ultimate goal. But if that was the case, why did HYDRA send four outsider astronauts who knew nothing about Hive instead of a crew of their own men, like they did later with Ward and his team? Will and the other three were sent years before HYDRA was exposed, so at this point they had no shortage of loyal followers. HYDRA could've picked one of those followers to become a voluntary host for Hive, and the other members of the team could've work alongside Hive, studying the planet and figuring a way to find the portal. But by sending innocent astronauts who knew nothing about what they're gonna face, HYDRA ensured these men would go crazy and die, and their mission would be a failure. So why didn't HYDRA send their own men to the planet?
- Who says they didn't? The real Will was killed before it could be revealed if he had been HYDRA or not, and although Fitz didn't find any evidence of it, given HYDRA's previous success in producing deep-cover agents that doesn't mean anything although, admittedly, his behavior, especially his sacrifice in assisting Jemma's escape would tend to argue against it. Aside from that, Will told Jemma that the other three astronauts were there to do the science, he was just there to provide protection. It's entirely possible he was intended to be the sacrificial host while the other three worked on a way of getting them back. Note that HYDRA had no idea what was on the other side of the Monolith (they sent solar-powered equipment to a place in almost perpetual darkness): they probably didn't know about the whole "going crazy" part, which may have been due to the long period Hive had been trapped there alone aside from the odd sacrifice being shoved through, and Hive was unintentionally responsible for killing the people trying to help get it home while the one who was supposed to die survived.
- If Will and the others were HYDRA men, why would HYDRA have created this whole fake NASA cover story? At that point HYDRA controlled the monolith, so no one else except HYDRA would ever have seen these guys. And if Will was a loyal HYDRA follower who was to sacrifice himself to Hive, why didn't he do exactly that, instead of hiding from Hive for years? Also, at the time Simmons arrived Will hadn't seen another human being for over 10 years, and it was quite likely he and Simmons would spend the rest of their lives with just the two of them. In that situation, would he really have lied to Simmons about why he was sent to the planet? What would he have gained by doing that?
- As suggested in the second part of the above response, it's possible Will was in the dark but the scientists were HYDRA. As for the NASA backstory, it wasn't fake, they really were NASA, but the operation was planned and organised by a third party (Mallick/HYDRA), while funded by NASA. They did this because, well, it's hard to keep 'space travel experiment' hidden from higher ups in S.H.I.E.L.D., so their best bet was to get people who were already trying to get to other planets as their backers and overseers. On top of that, this was HYDRA while it was, as far as we can tell, mostly fascist S.H.I.E.L.D. members who were more concerned with personal gain than supporting HYDRA's supreme goals, so it's unlikely HYDRA's disposable members would be willing to be sacrificed.
- That's assuming anyone in Hydra wants to be sacrificed. While Malick in hindsight obviously intended for the team to be wiped out and Ward would become It's host all along, hence him telling Jemma only it was coming back, nobody going in knew that, and Ward seems to be under the belief that Fitz was gonna be It's host, and he would be returning full of new purpose, not a dead meatpuppet for It. So it's likely Will's team were all duped into going with none of them being aware it was a one way trip.
- Malick's wording was ambiguous when he was talking to Jemma. He and Jemma were only talking about Fitz, so it's possible that when he said "Death is the only thing returning through that portal, Fitz was just an offering to show it the door" he was referring only "death" (Hive) coming back instead of Fitz, and both of them ignoring Ward and the HYDRA team. Furthermore, the bit about Fitz showing it the door implies that Hive would be possessing Fitz an have his memories and knowledge, and thus be able to navigate to the portal from the other side.
- Given that S.H.I.E.L.D. has possession of the Monolith years after Will is sent through, a likely scenario is that S.H.I.E.L.D. acquired the Monolith among the material they seized from HYDRA following World War 2 (as they did the Obelisk). Once HYDRA had infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. sufficiently they arranged to have control over it and, knowing it was a portal to another world, brought in NASA personnel who had the expertise to send an expedition. Will was a legit NASA astronaut meant to be the new host, the other three were secretly HYDRA, and the expedition was sent while the higher-ups at both S.H.I.E.L.D. and NASA who were HYDRA members kept it off the books, even from Fury. After the apparent failure of the mission, HYDRA decided to more research was needed (or perhaps Pierce and the other heads aside from Malick considered it a waste of time), and in order to keep anyone else from stumbling on the Monolith's secret, had it labeled as a highly dangerous 0-8-4, which was stored on the Illiad to keep it secure.
- Then again, in spite of everyone's clear desire to "prove" Will was not HYDRA, the logic is shaky. HYDRA was in deep cover mode at the time Will was sent through and agents would NEVER bring it up. Also Will's Heroic Sacrifice is not mutually exclusive of him being HYDRA, since HYDRA agents are still human and Will's probably too beaten down by then to care about stuff like that. We really also need to keep in mind that Will had the only gun in the group. No he didn't steal it from the scientists, it was given to him or it would have been used against him previously. And giving your intended human sacrifice a weapon seems pretty stupid. Maybe ONE of the scientists was the leader, Will was The Dragon and the other two were the potential sacrifices. Ultimately, its going to be a mystery till Wordof God clears it up.
- It's also possible that Will was HYDRA, but lost his allegiance after being isolated for over a decade.
- As shown in "The Inside Man" It/Hive feeds off humans as both a host and to sustain said host, with the cavets that a host must be dead before It/Hive can use it and cannot 'feed on it's own kind' AKA other Inhumans. So its likely that Will and all the others that went into the Monolith before him were HYDRA's attempts to keep It/Hive alive until a way could be found to make the return trip. In the early days they picked the 'food' from their own ranks by lottery. Later when they had access to NASA and all the nice healthy strong Astronauts there they decided to no longer pull from their own ranks and shove non-HYDRA offerings through for It/Hive's dinner. While possible that Will could have been HYDRA there is enough there to show he didn't have to be HYDRA to have been picked to go to that planet.
- Which raises the question of what precisely is an Inhuman. The events of season 3 reveal that while it's a clearly a small percentage of the human population the Inhumans are definitely mixed in with the general population. If being an Inhuman only counts if you have gone through terragenesis that's one thing. However if just having the gene makes you an Inhuman it would be next to impossible to keep from occasionally sending Inhumans through to feed It/Hive.
- Any Inhumans they sent through would die. Maybe some would last a while like Will, but in the end it doesn't really matter whether Hive could feed on them before Terrigenesis or not. It was barely getting enough food either way.
How did Coulson know Gordon had taken Raina as well as Daisy?
- Several times in Season 2 he mentions that this mysterious man has taken Raina somewhere, which is correct, but how did he know that in the first place? Gordon arrived to stop Raina from committing suicide without Coulson there to witness it, we never see Coulson being made aware of it and Coulson knew about Gordon and Raina before Daisy would have had a chance to learn about it herself.
- Gordon snatched Raina in front of a S.H.I.E.L.D. combat team who'd shown up and interrupted her suicide attempt and were attempting to capture her. One would imagine they informed the boss why they didn't bring back their target.
- They weren't HYDRA?
- Perhaps they were neither S.H.I.E.L.D. or HYDRA, but just standard police. Coulson knew about the event simply by turning on his TV.
- I'm pretty sure they were S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, since I think they say that they are at one point. At any rate, HYDRA had just suffered a major blow to their leadership at that point, plus I doubt HYDRA agents would ask her to come quietly. And if any local police knew about her to the point that they would call in an armed SWAT team for one woman, then either S.H.I.E.L.D. or HYDRA would've known about it before the SWAT team arrived and got to her first. Especially S.H.I.E.L.D. since they were aware that Raina had changed and were actively hunting her down.
- They are wearing S.H.I.E.L.D. tactical uniforms and earlier it was mentioned they had a team looking for her since she killed a couple agents escaping from the Kree City.
Why didn't Ward see Coulson come through the portal?
- When they first go through in "Closure". The portal only stays open for a brief time, so Coulson must have been only a few seconds behind Ward. Shouldn't he have popped out right in the middle of Ward's team? Even if they left the second they got through, they couldn't have gone more than a few meters and should have seen/heard Coulson's entrance (which wasn't exactly subtle).
- Ward does hear Coulson come through the portal, but can't see due to a sand storm. After he doesn't hear any sounds again (because Coulson's knocked out and not moving) he orders his team forward again.
James not knowing about alternative ways he could have activated his powers?
- With the rate at which the ecosystem is being penetrated with Terrigen (as evidenced by Charles undergoing Terrigenesis by getting rained on), it's surprising he hasn't lucked into his abilities by contaminated food or water already. It's practically inevitable. So why, with his obsession with Inhumans lore and receiving powers, is James so in the dark about what's going on? Why was Lincoln so aggressively hindering James attempts at getting powers? Why even bring the crystal at all? Why not just tell him about fish oil? Had James ever hurt somebody?
- He's a Crazy Survivalist who has cut himself off from civilization, partly because he's sure that Jiaying is going to send someone to kill him any day now. He's just not paying enough attention to the outside world. As for getting accidentally infected, he's out in the middle of the desert, quite literally the last place that a water-based infection will spread. He might eventually get randomly empowered, but it's gonna take a while. The reason Lincoln didn't tell him is because he believes that Jiaying was right in limiting the spread of powers, especially to unstable people. Earlier Lincoln was all on board using Creel's blood as a vaccine. He just doesn't think James can be trusted with powers. And considering what James has done with mundane guns and bombs, he probably has a point.
- Not only that the only ones who knew that the Fish Oil was activating the Inhuman Gene was SHIELD. Who along with the ATC took measures to remove the contaminated stock from the shelves. It was never revealed to the public the source of the new Inhuman outbreak which was why the media and most people thought it was some sort of virus. If the public didn't know the source then James definitely didn't.
- Charles was exposed when he had fish oil pills. I have no idea where you got rain from. And I'm pretty sure Coulson was clear they couldn't get all the different brands of pills off the shelves and the spread can't be stopped, hence the vaccine. As for James not knowing well he doesn't seem like the type to watch or read the news, doesn't take fish oil pills, doesn't seem to own a tv (doubt it's a good signal there anyway) and welcome to quality Australian new reporting. Considering how he acts with his powers (remember Hive only makes you happy, he can't change your personality), Lincoln was right not to trust this angry, arrogant and petty person with power.
- Charles' wife said he went out in the rain and underwent Terrigenesis. No mention of fish oil pills. Likewise, one of the first things mentioned in season 3 was that SHIELD got the fish oil off the shelves, but other fish products have been infected, and they couldn't track them all. They even showed Coulson looked at an estimated Terrigen spread, and it quickly engulfed the whole world (spreading from ports).
- Okay for the last time. Terrigen does not travel through rain. It does not evaporate. It travels through oil pills and other fish products. The rain is completely irrelevant to the story. She even says they got caught in the rain on the way home. Why didn't he change then? Because the rain has nothing to do with it other then setting the mood. They had got back from the farmer's market and he had oil pills or some other fish product before going outside again. He turns a few seconds later when the Terrigen is absorbed. Him being out in the rain was a coincidence and you are truly making a massive assumption.
Why is Hive so different?
- All the other Inhumans we know of are more or less humanoid, which makes sense, given that they are created by mixing the DNA of humans and Kree, both of whom are humanoid races, and then exposing them to terrigen. (And as we see in "Failed Experiments", Hive was created the same way as other Inhumans, not through any special process.) But for some reason this same process turns Hive into a clearly non-humanoid parasite worm, who can also create smaller parasites that eat flesh. If terrigenesis can have such wild and unpredictable results, why do all the other Inhumans remain humanoid, most of them not even changing their appearance from how they were before being exposed to terrigen? How could DNA even be manipulated to such a degree that one turns from a human into a small worm?
- Hive wasn't created the same way, though. Hive was purposefully engineered by the Kree. Modern Inhumans have vastly diluted Kree genes that still allow them to be transformed. Furthermore, Hive does have a humanoid form. He simply isn't constrained by it.
Gone for Good?
- Coulson mentioned using Malick's information to destroy HYDRA's infrastructure. So does that mean HYDRA is gone forever within the MCU? HYDRA is one of the biggest evil organizations in the comics, so it seems like killing them off would be reserved for a movie and have a lot more buildup. But the scenes showing their destruction seemed pretty compelling. So have we really seen the last of HYDRA?
- They are gone for now at least, and Hydra is pretty much done as far as the main MCU is concerned too (effectively Hydra was toasted after Age Of Ultron, as far as the movie-only fans care). They were the Phase Two bad guy, and only stuck around as long as they did because the show needed an ongoing bad guy. Now that the show has moved on too. Hydra is no longer needed for storytelling reasons and keeping them around would serve no good narrative purpose. But if they are needed again they can be brought back, First Law of Resurrection applies to groups as well as people.
- "Effectively HYDRA was toasted after Age of Ultron, as far as the movie-only fans care." Except not, because Ant-Man shows them still in existence, and in fact Mitchell Carson is still out there with the Pym Particles!
Where in the world is Daisy?
- Do the Sokovia Accords apply to her? She has superpowers and she's in a team that goes to "fight crime" at any country. Like the Avengers, just in a smaller scale, but she has the same potential for wanton destruction.
- No, because the Accords are about the Avengers specifically and she's not on the Avengers. She's part of SHIELD, which is already subject to checks and government oversight (inasmuch as it's "part of" the ATCU).
- As "Emancipation" reveals, the Accords cover that, though Coulson would have to be willing to admit she exists and have her registered, which probably won't happen.
Alisha Whitley aka "Ginger Ninja"
- Were the rumors true (from a now-removed thread on a British showbiz forum) that Alisha was killed off because her actress was joining the BBC soap Doctors for a few episodes and the BBC's Silent Witness in 2017, as well as other projects, or was this just fan speculation since I couldn't find anything on Google about this (assuming there's confidentiality agreements and such things)?
- How do we know she was killed off and not just busy off-screen? That woman's been killed more times then Kenny.
- I based it on what I've seen (and the recap here) for "Failed Experiments". As for the BBC thing, I've seen nothing official on it.
- She doesn't show up again for the rest of the season, even though her help would have been very useful for Hive in the final episodes. So it appears she's dead.
Once again: Why can't the Avengers help?
- The second half of season 3 once again raises the question: why doesn't SHIELD ask for the Avengers' help in dealing with Hive? They're facing an extremely powerful Inhuman who's planning to turn regular humans into Inhumans, so he would have an army with which to conquer the world. All their attempts to stop him have failed, but Coulson still can't be bothered to ask his old pals the Avengers for some help? It's true that the conflict in Captain America: Civil War complicates things a bit, but there was plenty of time to contact them before that. And even after the movie's events, the Avengers still have some heavy hitters, like the Iron Man, whose metal armor would make him immune to Hive's flesh-eating powers, or the Vision, who would be likewise immune.
Coulson: Stark, this is Coulson. Listen, I know it must sound weird to hear this, but...Stark: Yeah, yeah, good trick Ross. Please wait a moment.Coulson: What? Did he just put me on hold?
- "Hey, it's your buddy Phil. Yeah, not dead. Listen, SHIELD still exists and we need some help." That'd be a long conversation. Putting aside obvious meta reasons, as Coulson notes, the Avengers operate in the spotlight, SHIELD doesn't. The Avengers would put a lot of unwanted attention on SHIELD just by helping. As for Tony being immune, if Ant-Man can squeeze into the suit, Hive's cells can.
- Hive's plan is a potential threat to the entire world. Would Coulson really care whether he'd have to have some awkward conversations, or whether calling the Avengers would put SHIELD into the spotlight? I can't imagine he would risk the safety of the world for such petty reasons.
- You’re forgetting that the Sokovia Accords exist and are now a catchall answer to this annoying question that pops up for every single threat in the MCU. Even if Coulson were to pick up a phone and explain everything to Tony, he could not do anything about Hive. The current Avengers that Coulson could reach are Iron Man, Vision and Black Widow, all of whom have signed the Accords. Therefore they cannot help Coulson unless a committee approves sending them in, which would take way too long. A few episodes ago Coulson and Talbot discussed how they would have trouble even convincing the U.S. military of the threat from an ancient Inhuman who inspired the concept of Satan and in the finale they had a lot of trouble securing the launch codes even though Talbot, a high ranking military officer, was basically saying “a group of terrorists have stolen a warhead and have the means to launch it, we need those codes NOW” because of all the red tape. All of that is just the bureaucracy of U.S. Government. Now imagine how much harder it would be to get an international committee to agree to use the Avengers, who have effectively been limited to the Godzilla Threshold. This is exactly the situation Steve was talking about for his issues with the Accords, unless the entire world can see that Hive poses a threat to the world (which they can’t because he is operating in secret on a small scale and over a very short period of time), the Avenger will not be allowed to do anything. Steve probably would have run to help Coulson in a heartbeat but Tony cannot go breaking the Accords less than a week after they’ve been signed, no matter how big the threat is.
- Also-also, the full extent of Hive's threat wasn't known until the last few episodes (at least not until Daisy was taken), and it wasn't until they got Daisy back that they found out what he was planning. after that, Sokovia Accords were in place and they couldn't.
- After he was rogue, the location of Captain America is unknown. He can not be called. And Stark? Yes, Coulson called him, and the conversation went more or less like this
James (season 3 finale spoilers!)
- Maybe I missed it, but what happened to James by the end of the season 3 finale? I remember he spoke to Hive shortly after Giyera's death, but I don't remember much else after that.
- James and Lincoln had a fight where the later tazed the former out cold, but not before James planted something on Lincoln that he had already charged up and it exploded, injuring Lincoln. We don't have confirmation of James's death before the ep ends, at best he was captured and at worst Lincoln killed him.
- Answered in season 4. James survived, was freed from Hive control and was unwillingly registrated by SHIELD. He also ended up traumatised, self-loathing and suicidal, eventually joining up with the Watchdogs. He is currently in SHIELD custody after a run in with Ghost Rider.
A Mayan as the inspiration for The Devil?
- So, in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, we learn that it was actually Hive who inspired The Devil, the personification of evil in many different world religions. The problem? Most of these religions are from Afro-Eurasia, and were born from cultures that had not made contact with the Americas, where Hive hails from if he indeed is a Mayan. Perhaps his powers somehow allowed him to cross the ocean into the Middle East and Asia? That's the only explanation I can think of. Well, that and the fact that he's only credited as "Mayan" from external sources, and In-Universe he may actually be from Afro-Eurasia.
- We don't know how long Hive was on Earth before he started the rebellion against the Kree, and how long after that when he was banished by the Human/Inhuman Alliance, he could have traveled to various places and a single demonstration of his powers in those places could have easily inspired his 'legend.'
- The fact that Hive's "real" name is Latin makes it clear he spent at least some time in Europe, presumably relatively early in his development (since the one time he refers to himself by name, he calls himself Alveus instead of Hive). The Kree were a spacefaring race, so taking him from proto-America to proto-Europe would have been child's play. Maybe they first made landfall near Rome, or they just had a lab in the area. There is still the question of why they used a Mayan instead of someone else, but maybe it was the personal preference of the Reapers. They clearly thought of themselves as hunters, maybe they liked the idea of using a hunter for their general.
- There is also the fact that they never outright say he 'inspired the devil' (and with Doctor Strange and Ghost Rider being a thing, it likely we'll see Mephisto and other 'devils'), but that he inspired several cults and is the closest thing the MCU has seen to the devil.
Kree Blood: Coulson
- If being injected with Kree blood is all that is necessary to turn a human into a latent Inhuman, why did Coulson not undergo Terrigenesis when he grabbed that Terrigen crystal at the end of season 2? His arm should have broken out of the cocoon by now.
- It's not all that's necessary. If it was, they wouldn't have needed the doctor to science up everything and create the whole experiment.
- Mack did not want to find out. When Coulson's hand was petrified, he axed it, to save the rest of his body. And no, human or inhuman, a hand cut from the body will not survive at all. The blood in it will get out, and the cells will die very shortly afterwards.
- The effect for a human getting petrified and an inhuman getting cocooned is very different. Find a clip of Daisy's transformation on YouTube and compare her to Trip. Inhumans get covered, humans become stone. Coulson's hand was obviously the latter.
- Also Kree blood is not all that's necessary to turn a human into a latent Inhuman, as far as we know. Daisy transformed because she was the daughter of an Inhuman and therefore had the Inhuman gene/Kree Blood in her system from the start. Meanwhile Coulson and Garret were injected with Kree Blood while not being latent Inhumans, hence the reason why they began to go crazy and write on the walls. They weren't compatible with the blood, while Daisy, being Inhuman, was. So when it came time for the Obelisk, it read Daisy as Inhuman and Coulson as human with incompatible Kree Blood in his system and began to petrify him like the others.
Kree Blood: Daisy
- Why would anyone think that there is a substantial amount of Kree blood left in Daisy's system? Daisy got the GH325 injection two years ago. Her body should have processed it all by now. In any case, Hive said that they needed blood taken from a living Kree to reproduce the experiment, and the TAHITI Kree was rather obviously dead.
- Could be that's why the experiment only created mostly-mindless drones instead of actual Inhumans.
Season 3 Finale - Lincoln (Spoilers!)
- Lincoln was wounded to the degree he could hardly move without assistance. Daisy left him behind to go and get on the jet to take the warhead to space where it could detonate safely. Hive was already there when she got there, but stated he found her by the small of her blood. Except it was Lincoln's blood and he was already there and has shorted the manual controls. The thing is; we saw Lincoln with the rest of the team after Daisy had already left. So how on earth, when hardly able to move and leaving AFTER Daisy, did he not only get there before Daisy, but also early enough that Hive also beat Daisy there by following his blood trail, and he had time to hide himself in the chair in the cockpit and short the controls?
- With The Power of Love?
- I think you've got the chronology mixed up. Lincoln didn't beat Hive or Daisy there. Hive is following Daisy's Kree blood. Lincoln snuck in while Hive and Daisy were having their confrontation, using that as a distraction.
- The thing is, Daisy had to make a detour to grab the warhead, and judging by how she was moving it with her powers, it clearly took some effort to get into place. By contrast, Lincoln already knows where Daisy will end up, so he just had to go straight to the Quinjet. And considering the blood trail and how wounded he was, he probably only had enough time to short out the manual controls and get into the pilot chair before Daisy and Hive showed up.
How was Hive able to do all of the things it did on Maveth?
- In the episode "4,722 Hours", a mysterious entity that Will refers to as "It" does several creepy and supernatural things, such as drive Will's comrades insane and widen a canyon separating Will and Simmons from the portal. We later find out that "It" is actually an ancient Inhuman named Hive, and that many of the things that "It" was able to accomplish could be explained scientifically (imitating the Astronaut was likely accomplished by possessing his dead body, and the astronaut who purportedly "set himself on fire" was likely actually eaten by Hive's parasites). However, this still does not explain how Will's other two companions went insane, nor does it explain the sandstorms that hail Hive's prescence or the ability to extend a Canyon to prevent Will and Simmons from escaping. It's possible Will's companions went insane all on their own, however, Will retroactively debunks this theory when Simmons suggests it by stating that these astronauts were trained for years of isolation. Did their encounter with an entity as powerful as Hive drive them mad? And how did Hive extend the canyon? Was that simply a natural occurance that happens on Maveth to prevent Hive from leaving? Somebody please explain.
- Some of the things that happen are probably caused by the planet itself. It's doubtful that Hive would make it more difficult to get to the portal when he wants to leave the planet. Presumably the former inhabitants of the world did something that caused the planet to shift every time the portal opened, thus keeping Hive trapped and pissing him off. As for the astronauts going insane, it may be as simple as isolation combined with the looming threat of some unknown creature killing them may have driven them over the edge. Will is the only one to say that the astronauts were trained for isolation, but he himself clearly isn't all there either. I doubt any amount of training could cover years of isolation combined with a lack of sunlight and the fear of some alien creature coming to kill them.
- The sandstorms are implied to be Hive's spores, an entire planet's worth of dead. Not sure why he wouldn't use them to eat people directly, but maybe when food is scarce it's more efficient to possess mostly-intact corpses rather than strip them bare.
Where did Coulson's S.H.I.E.L.D. get the money to fund their operations/equipment?
- So a comment was made in "Meet the new Boss" that Coulson's S.H.I.E.L.D. had somehow had an endless supply of money (more or less) despite the fact they did not officially exist. I never really thought into that before (even during the third season with that massive plane of theirs) until this comment came up. Where did all of that money come from? Personally, as I think about it, I feel that maybe they're liquidating the assets of the HYDRA cells they've defeated/captured. Though that can't really cover it all, perhaps Maria Hill uses her position within Stark Industries to move money around in slush funds for S.H.I.E.L.D.? I mean we know from the end of the first and second seasons, she maintains some ties to S.H.I.E.L.D. and I believe has a high position within Stark Industries. And I believe at one point, a comment was made that Stark Industries was willing to hire any former S.H.I.E.L.D. agent that found their way to the company's doorway. So, what is it? All of that? None of that, or that and other avenues?
- Fury probably already had some funds lying around in case SHIELD needed it (he had the secret bases already) outside of that it was probably some combination of what you suggested. Though why they can't use that money now is also a good question.
- Fury was likely part of it, but Daisy stole funds from HYDRA at various points. With her gone, that's their best hacker, not to mention that official agencies usually aren't allowed to loot criminals wholesale like that.
- Fury most likely was part of it and the idea that they are liquidating HYDRA goods and probably cannibalizing them as well isn't unlikely. Whatever way they are currently funding themselves is likely shady as hell or at least looks shady and part of bringing S.H.E.I.L.D. back into official existence means that everything needs to look like it's legal and proper.
- Why Robbie Reyes? Why not Johnny Blaze? Why does it have to be a car, and not his badass motorbike?
- 1. Increases diversity in the MCU, something that's been very much needed. 2. It's probably cheaper and easier to insure stunt drivers for cars than for motorcycles. 3. No connection to the lackluster Ghost Rider films. 4. Less chance of Nicolas Cage showing up and asking why they didn't call him up first.
- Also Robbie uses a car in the comics, not a motorcycle. That part is just being accurate to the source material.
- Also-also, Ao S is a television series in which Ghost Rider isn't the main focus. As awesome as Robbie is, it only makes sense for Marvel to save the "bigger guns" like Blaze or Ketch for a solo Ghost Rider project.
- Another explanation by Wordof God is that he fit the series better due with his relationship with Gabe. Family has always been a running theme of the show.
- Also personally, the car is way more badass than the motorcycle. Motorcycle feels like its trying too hard to be cool, when a badass muscle car is just as awesome and has the advantage of being slightly less conspicuous.
- What's with the continual polygraphs? I can understand that the new Director might want to rescreen all the existing staff upon assuming command - Polygraphs are a part of the high-level security screening process, and there's no way HYDRA could have infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. the way they did if they hadn't compromised the screening staff, making all internal screenings suspect. But high frequency rescreenings (as opposed to 'we didn't finish everything before it was time for me to screen the next guy, let's have another session next week') just give the impression that the people being targeted are not and will never be trusted. In addition, a proper polygraph screening takes hours, and the personnel and equipment needed to do them is in limited supply, so screening Simmons every week or so just makes it harder to screen everyone else they need to clear.
- Even in universe it seems to be portrayed as needlessly paranoid but it would probably fall off after a few months to a few years. Right now S.H.I.E.L.D. is officially fresh off the Winter Soldier story line and that doesn't reveal how much of seasons two and three are open secrets. So part of it is simply PR. It's also worth noting that with our current information Hydra predates S.H.I.E.L.D. by so much that preventing infiltration was probably close to impossible.
- Level of authority may be a factor. We are really only aware of Jemma getting polygraphed weekly. Coulson and Mack seem to be out in the field for weeks at a time. Fitz only seems concerned about Jemma having to lie. He doesn't seem too concerned about himself or Dr. Radcliffe possibly failing a polygraph about AIDA.
- It's explicitly stated that those closest to the Director (and being a senior advisor, Jemma falls into that category) are the ones subjected to routine polygraphs, not all staff in general. The assumption is that polygraphing everyone all the time (as stated above) is impractical and disruptive—and in the case to people operating undercover, basically impossible anyway—so the theory is that they're trying to prevent what happened to S.H.I.E.L.D. previously in that most of the problems were caused by the HYDRA infiltration at the highest levels. Rumlow or Garrett running around as HYDRA is one thing, but people like Pierce who could authorize something as massive as Project Insight in plain view are something else entirely.
A.I. is banned?
- I know that Ultron was a bit of a big deal nearly taking over the planet but it's worth remembering that Ultron and Vision are not artificial intelligences, at least not created entirely via science. Both of them employed magic from one of the most powerful artifacts in the known universe. Recreating something similar to them without the same tools is probably impossible. Its akin to banning microwaves on account of the Hulk.
- While that is true, how many people are aware that Ultron's creation was a product of the Mind Stone? I doubt that's common knowledge. Hell, even Stark and Banner believed they were at fault for Ultron turning out how he did. And ultimately, how Ultron was created matters little, as he proved the dangers of AI if they went out of control. Yes, Vision is also an AI and clearly is doing good, but so far the most visual AI is Ultron, who pulled nearly destroyed the world. A massive incident like that would cause huge public backlash against the creation of AIs, which would force politicians to do something to deal with the problem, which in this case, is banning the research and development of new ones.
- Besides, as we have seen in Captain America: Civil War, Jessica Jones, Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist (2017), and even this series, nowadays most common people in-universe are not exactly thrilled about superheroes. If the options of AIs are "it can either turn out a world menace like Ultron, or a new superhero like Vision", then both results are undesirable by the people. The third option would be "it can also turn out to be a useful tool for doing chores", but then, too much risk for too little gain.
- You don't even need to look at Marvel's fictional universe to see the debate. Right now in the real world there's discussions about A.I. and whether it would really be a good thing or not, and we haven't even had the example of one nearly destroying the world; we have cases like self-driving cars.
Yo-Yo's powers are different now?
- When she was first introduced back in Season 3's mid-season premiere, Yo-Yo's speed power was defined as being able to run very fast in a heartbeat, but as soon as one heartbeat's gone, she "snaps back" to her original location. This rule seemed mostly consistent in Season 3. So why does that limitation no longer apply? For her first few appearances in Season 4, one could perhaps justify that with her being able to somehow slow down her heartbeat, but in the mid-season finale, she runs into a building, and has to run back out again, which does not follow the established rules. Is she just a Quicksilver clone for "Agents" now? I hope the upcoming AOS: Slingshot miniseries can clear this up, otherwise it's a Plot Hole.
- Maybe she's just gained better control over her power? It seems like that's something every Inhuman went through (Daisy, Lincoln, Joey, and even Lash to an extent), so maybe she's learned to control her powers better. That said, it would clear things up if they explained it.
- But her powers were explicitly stated to be linked to her heartbeat though, if gaining better control is the reason, it will feel like a bit of a Hand Wave.
- In "The Laws of Infernal Dynamics", she realized she'd entered a trap and everything was starting to explode around her while early in her run. If she hadn't turned around she would have been caught in the explosion and although she would have snapped back when her running time expired, she would have received serious, perhaps fatal, wounds in the meantime. She didn't have to turn around to get back to where she started, she decided to turn around and get the hell out of the building.
- They're not different at all. Aside from the extenuating circumstances mentioned above, she also visibly snaps back (also in "The Laws of Infernal Dynamics") after rearranging the battlefield to help SHIELD.
- I guess you do have a point. I guess it's just that in my mind, "snap back" was literally like running in reverse back to her starting point, instead of just having to run back to the starting point. Also, back in the season 3 episode "Bouncing Back", she was seen launching backwards while being paralysed mid-run, while in her two slow-mo running scenes in "The Laws of Infernal Dynamics", she was seen to be running forwards when her time expired (i.e. when the slow-mo ended).
Does Simmons still hate Inhumans?
- I haven't seen the too much of the show since close to the end of season 3 (me and my parents don't have much motivation to see it) but I was wondering what the status of Simmon's hatred of Inhumans are. Does she still unapologetically hate them? Has she been trying to change her views since Daisy is one of them? Are she and Daisy still friends?
- No, Simmons got over her hatred for Inhumans.
- Why doesn't SHIELD record some documentaries explaining the nature of Inhumans? It might do some good to have an official explanation out there letting the world know that the Inhumans are not connected to the Chitauri, that their nature is not a disease, and that many of the people who are turning into Inhumans didn't know they were latent Inhumans until Terrigenesis happened. Having two famous Inhumans on staff though one of them isn't really Inhuman to host would give them an air of credibility, and Daisy being able to honestly explain that she found her initial experiences with her powers terrifying to the point where she once had to sedate herself to get them under control would help people understand all the newly made Inhumans suffering from Power Incontinence. As a bonus, the explanation that being a latent Inhuman is a genetic trait would undermine Nadeer's influence with the Watchdogs, as they all know her brother was Inhuman, and thus she might be a latent one as well.
- It's possible that such information is out there publicly and groups like the Watchdogs treat it the same way as some groups of the Anti-Vax Movement treat the ample amount of evidence about the safety of Vaccines, just something that 'Big Government' and 'Corrupt SHIELD' are selling to the masses while hiding the 'truth' from the public.
- Its shown in the most recent episode of this writing that it seems to be the case; Shockley seems aware of the science behind the Inhumans but considers them a plague on the human gene pool that needs to be wiped out (much like a White Supremacist), while Nadeer seems to cling the idea that its something that infects people and that she personally could never be an Inhuman, regardless of her brother's condition which fortunately for her, turns out she didn't get the same gene passed onto her, which would prove her point...if she didn't get blown up immediately after.
Hauled in front of the Sokovia Accords
- When Team Coulson are caught trying to bug Nadeer, the way she announces it to the media is as it is happening. Live. Why didn't anyone call her out? I mean, how could she know the exact time they would try and infiltrate her office and subsequently be able to report on it, unless she had done some spying of her own. For the record, I'm pretty sure wiretapping a spy organisation like SHIELD isn't exactly legal...
- SHIELD was caught red handed trying to illegally spy on a US senator. That's a big deal, so the media and the other senators are going to be more focused on that. Nadeer then can claim she had an anonymous tip before the hearing about what SHIELD was planning to do, that would be hard to disprove and would maintain her public image as a law abiding senator.
Simmons Learning About The LMD May
- Simmons realizes in Episode 4x12 the truth about the LMD May when she saw a "brain" designed by Aida. Did she see Aida do that offscreen or did it happen in a scene in a previous episode and I just missed it?
- In a previous episode. When May was "infected" by the ghosts in the beginning of the season the team brought her to Radcliffe's for treatment.
- More specifically, when LMD-Radcliffe reveals the quantum brains have all the same information as the original ones, Fitz and Simmons realize he had to have scanned those brains for that to be possible, and Simmons remembers when she saw him scan May's.
The Daisy Field
- How did the LMDs manage to ship in or construct a couple dozen robotic copies of Daisy in the middle of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s primary base without anybody noticing along the way?
- Given they're robots, it's possible the Daisy-bots were delivered dis-assembled, which would make them easier to sneak in, too. They could easily sneak them inside under the guise of weapons containers or any other cargo, and just put together once they had time.
- But the team was only replaced for maybe 24 hours, unless LMD May started it would be impossible for them to finish in the time they had. Especially since the LM Ds were shown spending time around human agents.
- The thing is, they wouldn't need to assemble all of them, they could just assemble one. That one LMD would then be able to assemble the rest.
- But they would have to have all the pieces and parts in place already
- Just ship them in as supplies for the containment pods or something, and when you get the time, go and assemble one of the Daisy bots (considering how easily they put Fitz back together, and considering they can assemble themselves to some degree, it shouldn't take very long) and have her assemble the rest.
- But between the mission where the team was switched with the LM Ds and the time when the LM Ds tried to take over the base was less than 24 hours. When did they have time to secretly ship crates in?
- This plan was started back in "Hot Potato Soup" when Radcliffe agreed to help the Watchdogs with their plans if they got him the Darkhold. Radcliffe would have sold the Superior the idea that if he wants to kill the Inhumans and get to Coulson they need to replace SHIELD agents with LM Ds as the Inhumans would trust them. They would have then created all the necessary LM Ds before SHIELD found them and launched the rescue op, the scene with Coulson and the Superior's Wall o Crazy was more to by Radcliffe time to make all the LMD's than it was to taunt Coulson. Note- It didn't matter who they were able to capture (Mace/Daisy or both) in "Boom" they just needed ONE and the rest of the main agents would follow. Once on site they would replace as many top agents as they could, by replacing Coulson/Fitz/Mack right off the bat, they would know if any large shipments that were due to arrive shortly after they returned to the Playground, or AIDA hacked the manifests ahead of time to insure the arrival of the LMD!Daisies was shortly after the team returned, with Coulson/Fitz/Mack there to sign off on them and have them moved to a spot where they wouldn't be found right away. The LM Ds were made well ahead of time, and timed to arrive shortly after they brought Mace back. It was a Batman Gambit , if the team had made any different moves than they did, stayed together during the whole op and not splitting up, it would have been blown to hell. And it DID since Daisy went "Off Script" and found the LMD fleet before they could grab her for the brain scan.
Why do the LMDs want to kill all Inhumans?
- In "Self Control", the LMDs that have taken over SHIELD seek to execute every Inhuman, much like the Watchdogs wanted to do. But why? Did Radcliffe and AIDA cut some kind of deal with Ivanov in that Ivanov would only offer his services if AIDA and Radcliffe built LMDs to carry out the Watchdogs' plans? My general understanding is that AIDA and Radcliffe did not at all share in the Watchdogs' hatred of Inhumans, and thus never had any intentions of carrying out these genocidal plans at all...yet "Self Control" seems to suggest that's not the case.
- AIDA says her main missions are to protect Radcliffe and the Framework. The Inhumans can't be replaced by LM Ds (their powers can't be replicated). The only way to stop any potential inhuman from attacking would be to kill them.
- It's likely the 'replace them with LMD duplicates' plan was made with Ivanov in the loop (they would have had to have each LMD already built and on-base for the swap to take place, so he'd almost definitely be aware of the plan), and he likely insisted that they program them to take out the Inhumans while they were at it, or at the very least they would offer it to appease him. As an alternative theory, it's also likely that they weren't actually going to kill the Inhumans, but planned to put them into the Framework first; Radcliffe sees this as protecting people, so it's possible he thought that doing this would be him protecting the Inhumans from Ivanov (assuming of course he was unaware of the fact the Framework was being remodelled into a 'what if HYDRA won' situation).
- "It's also likely that they weren't actually going to kill the Inhumans"...Um, the dialogue between the LMDs says otherwise:
LMD!Coulson: In the meantime, Daisy will contact the Inhumans, inform them she's coming to collect them personally.LMD!Mace: Yes. And then execute them on sight.
- As for Inhuman powers, it's true the LMDs can't replicate them, but they can still make LMDs without the powers and put the originals in the Framework. That appears to be what they were planning for the Daisy-bots; yeah, they wouldn't have her Quake powers, but unexpected super strength and toughness from someone you trust can overpower nearly anything. In fact, it's likely the reason they made Daisy-bots instead of anyone else was because Daisy knows all the Inhumans personally, which means they trust her and she knows what kind of powers they have.
- The LM Ds in "Self Control" are operating under the Watchdogs orders, and Radcliffe wouldn't be too worried about them killing the KNOWN Inhumans, he knows all about Terrigen and how it's already in the water supply and that more will show up eventually. He also has a nice supply of pure Terrigen to make more if his research going in that direction. In his Po V letting a 'few' Inhumans die now will be for the greater good later. Once the Watchdogs think they have 'won' or if they turn against him, he can flip the LM Ds switch and eliminate the Watchdogs and cancel the Inhuman killing order, this is a Win-Win for Radcliffe with LMD's controlling SHIELD he has a nice pipeline of Inhuman subjects if he ever goes back to that line of research.
- Well, "What If" implies that Aida may actually dislike Inhumans for some reason, seeing she made herself Madame Hydra and heavily discriminates Inhumans.
- Maybe it has something to do with the Darkhold corrupting her. Or, since that's kind of a copout ("Evil book is randomly racist"), maybe it's because she knows that powered people are more difficult to control than non-powered people. An LMD can easily handle any human by itself, but depending on their powers, an Inhuman could cut through them like wheat and destroy the Framework.
- AIDA later stated in "Identity and Change" that she had "no control" over what happened in the Framework that it was the Logical results of the team's regrets being removed. Specifically May's regret that led to the HYDRA Rise and Inhuman Hate, but Radcliffe tosses that in her face, implying that he does care about the Inhumans, or regrets his past actions implying that if he had known he would have done something or ordered AIDA to repair/reboot the Framework to something better or completely shut it down since it went so wrong. Its all less "AIDA hates Inhumans" and more "I like this world as is...it's neat, and orderly and I have total control over it and boyfriend and will do ANYTHING to protect it." Including killing Radcliffe to keep him from ordering her to shut it down.
- She also has Fitz working on something called Project Looking Glass to take the fight to "the other side" (presumably by using remote LMD bodies). Considering her newly revealed hatred for S.H.I.E.L.D., maybe this is all less about the Inhumans and more about creating a HYDRA that stands against everything S.H.I.E.L.D. stands for. She's creating an army to destroy them, and killing their Inhuman allies before her army arrives is just good tactics.
- Looks like we got an answer in "The Return" the LMD's on the outside were following the Watchdogs marching orders, Aida/Madame Hydra was using the Inhuman Hate to collect Inhumans...for their powers with Project Looking Glass being the creation of an organic body for Aida fused with ALL of the cool/good powers they discovered.
Researching Inhumans in the Framework
- So AIDA learned how to recreate Inhuman powers in the real world by studying Inhumans in the Framework, a virtual simulation that she herself programmed. How did she program the Framework to reproduce Inhumans without knowing how they work in the real world? If she just programmed the Framework to simulate the effects of Inhuman powers, how can she be certain that any information gained from researching the virtual simulacra of Inhumans would be accurate in the real world? She's studying something that she herself programmed into the Framework. It would only work the way she programmed it to work, which wouldn't necessarily be how it works in reality.
- The Darkhold is magic. Using it, Aida didn't just create a virtual world, she created a fully functional reality with perfect physics and everything. The Inhumans weren't just random digital avatars with the "can teleport" tag attached, they were people with all the chemistry implied.
Why is Hope in the Framework?
- So, in the Framework, the only thing that changed was that the biggest regret of our characters got "fixed". But how did this result in Hope being alive? For example, Framework!Coulson decided not to join S.H.I.E.L.D and Framework!May decided not to shoot the girl, Framework!Fitz decided to have a closer relationship with his father, and these decisions resulted in the big changes that we see. I don't exactly remember how Hope died in the Real Life, but Mack said that it was only four days after her birth and to me it sounded as if it was implied that she died of "natural" causes, which means that it was not his fault. So how could Mack have made a decision in the Framework that resulted in her being alive if there never was a decision that he could have regretted that resulted in her death in the Real Life?
- AIDA didn't fix a decision they regretted the most, just their biggest regret. (Fitz seems to imply his father abandoned him and his mom, so it wasn't Fitz's decision not to know his father that well.) So when AIDA was programming the Framework after Mack was plugged in she merely eliminated the cause of Hope's death.
Why plug Daisy and Jemma into the framework, and not Yo-Yo?
- Before going inside, they did not know what kind of reality to expect, or their personal status within it (they couldn't have known about HYDRA's world, Daisy living with a good Ward, or Jemma being dead). What they did know is that, in the real world, it was an incredibly complex software, run by an android with many resources. And, before getting her inhuman powers, Daisy was a master hacker, and Jemma does not stay that much behind. Yo-Yo can not do anything on that field, but she can help in a fight. So, either Daisy or Jemma should have stayed out, waging the hacker vs. hacker war, and Yo-Yo should have been the second one to get inside. That way they would have fully exploited their combined strengths. The way they did, as soon as AIDA changes a pair of codes, they were screwed: neither Daisy nor Jemma can hack the framework from the inside, and Yo-Yo can't do anything but wait until the plane falls down for lack of fuel.
- Because Jemma and Daisy didn't think it was going to be a difficult task (they seem to think the rest of the team will remember the real world and just come along with them). And the two of them know the rest of them team a lot better than Yo-Yo does.
- And they DID plan ahead Daisy added her own "backdoor" just in case it hit the fan and they needed to back out and rethink the plan. They were not expecting AIDA to catch on as fast as she did and kill Daisy's backdoor...nor did they see Radcliffe being already dead. Given that LMD!Fitz made it seem that he and Jemma would be happily married in the Framework nobody expected her to be dead, which is what wrecked the plan.
- So, AIDA and the Russian's plan to use a LMD Daisy to shoot Talbot as a way to intensify anti-Inhuman sentiment by discrediting Daisy is a good idea in principle, but... what about the surveillance cameras? Won't they catch the fact that there were two Daisies running around and that some of the representatives were LM Ds themselves? That's not also mentioning other cameras in the building that would've presumably had footage of Ghost Rider flaying the LMD Daisy with his chain while the real deal was in the same room.
- The room where Daisy and Ghost Rider fight the LM Ds didn't look like it would have cameras in it. It looked like a closet or storage room. And Talbot (and therefore probably others in the military) know about the nano mask that allows people to change their face. So the train of thought would be Daisy shot Talbot and another female wore the mask and barged in as a way to give Daisy an alibi. And the LM Ds all get incinerated, so there's little evidence that they were there. The two Russians surviving getting shot could likewise be handwaved as them wearing body armor. Also there is clearly tension between humans and Inhumans, the plan doesn't need to be perfect or foolproof. It just needs to be believable enough for the world leaders at the conference.
- Having re-watched that scene, I can tell you that the real Daisy did not enter the conference room at all, instead splitting off from the group to find Aida. And while the Daisy LMD is completely incinerated, the others are left intact, just shattered into pieces. So, it might not be as cut and paste as Aida was hoping, but the event will be enough to cause the leaders to question everything that happened.
- AIDA and the Russian counted on being able to kill Talbot AND corrupt the attendee's with the Darkhold, they failed on both accounts there. They did not count on Team Coulson showing up as fast as they did. Remember the cameras ALSO caught the Russian and his companion taking MULTIPLE shots to the chest, resulting in bloody wounds and walking them off as they fled the room, even if they had vests, they wouldn't be walking let alone running away. Basically it looks bad for SHIELD but there is enough wiggle room to cast doubt on the story.
Changing so much of Ghost Rider
- I read the first trade of the all new Ghost Rider comic, and reading how they adapted him to the show, it leaves me a bit puzzled. Why not a metallic skull helmet? Why did they age up his little brother and why does he not have the mental disabilities present in the comic?
- Really, you can ask that question about a lot of the MCU cast. Hell, Daisy Johnson is supposed to be much younger in the comics than she is in the show. In regards to the metallic skull helmet, you have to remember that most audiences who know Ghost Rider are more familiar with the Johnny Blaze incarnations either from the comics or movies, and gave Robbie the appearance to match.
- As for his younger brother by giving him a physical disability indirectly caused by Robbie, they were able to milk some more drama out of it.