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Archived Discussion Main / ItWasHissLED

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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

From YKTTW

Could someone please change the title of the page back to "It Was His Sled" rather than "It W As His Sled"? I'm not sure how to change page titles.

Tanto: They're both the same. (Try It Was His Sled, Itw Ash Iss Led, I Twas Hissle D, It W As His Sled.) Also, new comments go on the bottom.

zeroplusalpha: The truth about Ayu is pretty obvious (I'd say you could pretty much guess most of it by the end of the OP), but only if you were familiar with this kind of material. I haven't actually seen AIR (one of few, it would seem) but given that the name Misuzu is always mentioned in the same breath, I can't say I'm terribly shocked by the revelation.

And for something completely different: I noticed that somebody excised a large chunk from the main page, for slightly nebulous reasons (the editor asserts that s/he isn't part of the target demographic, but some of it "definitely has to go".) I'm all for judicious pruning of Natter, but the removal seems a little excessive and extends to examples that are, in my opinion, perfectly OK. However, it's not my intention to make mountains out of molehills, so I'll just throw that up in the air in the event that someone with more seniority and influence agrees that at least some of the changes should be restored.

Twin Bird: "I'm not part of the target demographic for some of these (such as Riders to the Sea), but others definitely need to go."

  1. Revenge Of The Sith was a Foregone Conclusion.
  2. The ending of the Matrix trilogy hasn't really seen any kind of Popcultural Osmosis, and as the Natter admitted, wasn't really meant to come as a surprise.
  3. What did you expect to happen in a film called "The Search For Spock"?
  4. A story about a Messianic Archetype following part of the Messianic Archetype (and no, it isn't the Trope Maker) isn't really a "twist." There are probably larger, but more obscure ones to be found.
  5. "Crossroads of Twilight" apparently has nothing to do with the trope, and is an acknowledged Take That!. This is a Bad Thing.

zeroplusalpha: Fair enough.

Jisu: Is Ayu's fate really that obvious? When Kanon 2006 was airing this past while, I knew so many people that didn't want it spoiled for them. If you want to put a Key Visual Arts game on there, say that Misuzu dies.

Dark Sasami: I'm a big anime fan, and I didn't know the last four of those examples. Especially with something like Simoun — which came out what, last year? — it's way too soon for this phenomenon to have happened.

Jisu: So it's agreed.

Riff: I kind of feel like a lot of these don't apply... I wasn't aware of how The Perfect Storm or The Village ended, and I hadn't even heard of Who Killed Roger Ackroyd? If we're not careful, this is just gonna turn into "spoil the end of some random movie", and that misses the point.

Jordan: I didn't know about the Perfect Storm one either. I'm sorry about spoiling Roger Ackroyd- I was inspired by the inclusion of the other famous Christie twist ending, Murder on the Orient Express- what I've found, is that when people will review the book, they have a really hard time telling the reader there is a twist without giving the twist away and the novel is fairly famous for having a twist. Also, it was simply thought it was funny to answer the novel's question.

Andrew Leprich: I got to agree with Riff- most of these don't belong here. The point of this trope is that everyone knows these twists because of word of mouth, even if they actually haven't seen the work. Everyone and their mother knows that Aeris dies and that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, but I would say the surprise endings of The Villiage, The Maltese Falcon, Unbreakable, Twin Peaks, and The Perfect Storm are by no means common knowledge. We've branched out too much. It's become "name a surprise plot point". Hell, I've never even heard of Brazil, Murder on the Orient Express, and The Prisoner. My two cents.

Ununnilium: Yeah. Pulling it out here (warning of the spoilers):

    cut non-examples 

Andrew Leprich: Thanks, Ununnilium, I'd say it's pretty much perfect now.

Ununnilium: Personally, I'm still wavering on Fight Club and possibly The Usual Suspects.

Andrew Leprich: In terms of popularity, I'd say Fight Club is okay, but I'm on the fence with The Usual Suspects. Then again, personally I only saw these two films within the past two years, so I can imagine many others who have yet to see them. You might be right. Also, I've never even heard of Murder on the Orient Express, but, then again, I'm not much of a reader. And, this is probably going to sound really pathetic, but this spoiled Citizen Kane for me... >_>

Grev: Now, the big question: Does this make Tomato Surprise obsolete?

Dark Sasami: No, they're not the same thing at all. Tomato Surprise is a twist ending in a show. It Was His Sled is a cultural phenomenon where just about everybody knows, oh yeah, that movie, that's the one where it turns out that [insert Tomato Surprise X].

On the previous subject, I think that within certain subcultures or demographics, certain spoilers are near-universally known. The Final Fantasy X one is very well known in gaming circles, for example, especially due to the internet. I think it's rather like the lost phenomenon of local hits on the radio. A given song could be a huge hit in one or two cities, but never be heard by most of the rest of the nation—but to people in those cities, it feels just like a universal pop culture thing until you refer to it elsewhere and get blank stares.

We're still not dealing with universal knowledge, as Andrew Leprich has shown. (Geez, where've you been?) It just so happens that the ones we're showcasing are known by the "darn near everybody" demographic.

Seven Seals: Murder on the Orient Express and The Usual Suspects definitely belong. I don't know how you'd back that up with statistics, and there will always be people who've never heard of the spoiler (bless them) but when the spoiler is a phenomenon in itself (that is, things get mentioned as having a "Usual Suspects ending" (and I wrote this before finding out we have The Usual Suspects Ending), it probably belongs here.

Ununnilium: Also: Oh, so that's what "About the only thing we won't spoil is The Mousetrap" means!

Andrew Leprich: Actually, we agree, Dark Sasami. I never meant to imply that this should be limited to universal knowledge, but re-reading my last post that's probably how I came off. Of course I'm not arguing that. Not everyone can know that Aeris dies when the large majority of people have no clue what Final Fantasy is. I completely agree with the subculture/demographics thing. Since every person who is remotely interested in J[=RPGs=] knows the twists in Final Fantasy X, I'd say it's in, but, personally, I think it's a little too much of a stretch to include things like The Perfect Storm and Brazil. Addnedum: Edited the entry to reflect this.

Ununnilium: Okay, I've never even heard of Angelheart.

Morgan Wick: I dispute all the movie examples except Empire, Fight Club, Soylent Green, Planet of the Apes, Old Yeller, and Maltese Falcon, and I might be persuaded to keep Psycho and Sixth Sense. I don't get what High Plains Drifter is trying to say, and I second Unu on Angelheart.

Seven Seals: Sixth Sense absolutely has to stay. It's practically the canonical modern example of a well-known spoiler. Ditto for The Usual Suspects. Your objection does raise a point.

The are two problems with this entry: first, there's always some subjectivity as some people will not have heard of a movie or its spoiler (so the question then becomes how widespread something really is) and second, what spoilers are particularly well-known will shift over time, so it'll be a mix of the real classics (Citizen Kane) and recent flicks (The Usual Suspects) still recent in memory.

Things sufficiently obscure of themselves, never mind the spoiler (thirded on Angelheart) don't belong here, since it's highly unlikely that people will have heard of the spoiler without having heard of the thing itself (which is the heart of the entry).

Andrew Leprich: I would also have to agree that we're falling back into old habits. Angelheart?

Looney Toons: <sigh> Late 1980s film with Robert deNiro and Mickey Rourke; more or less the swan song for Lisa Bonet of The Cosby Show, who did a nude scene in it. Unnecessarily full of heavy-handed symbolism and Meaningful Names, including one particularly obnoxious example (Louis Cyphere = Lou Cyphere = Lucifer). Has some clever dialogue, and is apparently a passable occult thriller, but those aren't my bag so I have a different opinion than most who've seen it.

Susan Davis: I recently saw Fight Club, and the twist was a genuine twist for me, not something that "everybody knew." I'd suggest that that's still sufficiently well-hidden to not be suitable here, especially given that the bit that people who haven't seen the movie generally know is the "First rule of Fight Club" speech, not the twist.

Susan Davis: ...and am I the only one who thinks they should have called it Fight Club for Men? ("I'm not just the president... I'm your subconscious.")

Tanto: Deleted the Metal Gear Solid 2 example because, well, it's not a spoiler. If it's directly mentioned in reviews, it's not a spoiler. If it happens an hour into the game, it's not a spoiler. It was a surprise prior to the game's release, yes, because Kojima deliberately deceived the fans and media, but once the game was actually out it's just so much backstory.

I'm also conflicted about the Knights Of The Old Republic and Diablo examples, since they hardly seem like common knowledge spoilers, but I'll leave 'em in for now.

Seven Seals: I also don't believe in the KOTOR spoiler. What demographic are we talking about, here? Star Wars-based CRPG players? Star Wars-based game players? Star Wars fans? CRPG players? Gamers in general? The more narrow the "everybody knows this one" demographic is, the less interesting it is to put here.

If you want to put an entry here, ask yourself this question: of all the people who have never seen/heard/played something personally, how many have heard of it? And of those people, how many know the twist ending despite never having experienced it personally? The first question would need to pass with "more than one person", the second with "damn near everyone". Fans don't count, they're in the know by definition.

As for Diablo: I've heard of it, I've even played it, but I've never completed it, and I have no idea what the ending is. Seriously, how many people, even Diablo players, care about the story of Diablo? I don't see how you could call this well-known.

Sikon: When I added KOTOR, I was thinking Star Wars fans, even those who never played the game.

Susan Davis: The only video game examples I had heard of through Pop-Cultural Osmosis were the FFVII and Metroid twists, FWIW.

Kinitawowi: Just to beat a deceased equine, I've been playing computer games ever since computer games existed, and I didn't know about the FFVII one until I started playing it early last year (I never had a Playstation) and one of my mates was desperately trying to spoil me. "Haveyougottothegoodbityet? Haveyougottothegoodbityet? Haveyougottothereallyfamousbityet? Haveyougottothebitthatmadeeverybodygo What The Fuckyet? NO I FUCKING HAVEN'T! I'LL FIND OUT WHEN I GET THERE!" I eventually had to spoil myself just to shut him up.

Seth: For the sake of continuity i say we remove the mousetrap spoiler. I mean it is on the main page that we wont spoil it.

Seven Seals: Eh, have you read the entry? There is no spoiler there. That's why it's listed as an exception.

Seth: Oh, i skipped over it because i didn't want to be spoiled (Heh)

Susan Davis: Removed "The Passion of Christ: It'd be interesting to hear if anyone actually was surprised in the first place" on the grounds that if no one was surprised, it wasn't a Twist Ending, let alone one given away by Pop-Cultural Osmosis.
Ununnilium: Because of the above discussion, taking out:

  • As is Clint Eastwood in High Plains Drifter.
  • Angelheart: Harry Angel is Johnny Favourite.
  • Knights Of The Old Republic: The player character is Darth Revan with amnesia.
  • Diablo: You make yourself the new host body for Diablo.

Also, I was wavering on Fight Club already, and then Susan Davis didn't know... I'm thinking of taking it out, too.

Andrew Leprich: Well, it's probably not on the level of The Sixth Sense or Titantic, but I would keep it in personally. Then again, I am biased because I've already seen it. I'm still slightly annoyed by being spoiled for The Maltese Falcon, but I'm probably the exception with not having seen/read it, not the trend.

Seven Seals: If it makes you feel better, you're not alone. I haven't ever seen/read it either. OTOH, I already knew the spoiler before this page, because it comes up a lot as a famous MacGuffin, too.

In an ironic twist, I saw Citizen Kane without knowing the spoiler, something I'd imagine is pretty hard to do.

Seth: I haven't seen Kane and wasn't spoiled... well until i read the title of this trope.

Morgan Wick: Andrew Leprich actually thinks more people have seen The Maltese Falcon? What circles do you travel in? I doubt there's any movie more people have seen than haven't, even if you restrict it to the United States - certainly movies that are that old would not qualify.

Seth: There is a definite statute of limitations on spoilers

Cort Jstr: I'm tempted to put up an image of [http://feeds.wired.com/~r/TableOfMalcontents/~3/118758065/spoilt_tshirt_a.html this shirt]

Andrew Leprich: Morgan, of course not. I meant within the right subculture, i.e. movie buffs. My "exception and not the trend" comment was referring to, say, the people participating in this discussion. Of course I wasn't referring to society at large. I went over that already with Dark Sasami, so I thought it went without saying.

Anyway, would the plot twist in Batman Begins count? It's a safe bet that nearly every Batman fan has seen it by now. On the other hand, the movie is only two years old. Addendum; added in the original Batman, to me that's a given.

Ununnilium: Definitely not for Batman Begins, and IMHO, Batman doesn't belong in there either.

Andrew Leprich: I agree with Begins, it's too new. As for the original, well, I can see where you're coming from, simply because the twist probably isn't as well-known as most of the others on the list. I would say, however, that nearly every Batman fan has seen the original by now, and the twist is universally known in Batman fan circles. This raises the question of what exactly do we mean when we talk about target demographics/subcultures. Like, for Batman, what? Batman fans? 18-35 year old males? Hardcore movie fans? This entire trope is kinda messy, IMV. Anyway, I'll leave in Batman for now until we get more opinions, but I have no problem with taking it out. But, personally, I think Batman belongs on here before Soylet Green and The Maltese Falcon.

Andrew Leprich: I just thought of something. Why aren't we using spoiler tags for the examples?! Yes, I realize that that would completely go against what the trope is trying to say, but, because this trope is very much subjective and YMMV, I wouldn't see the harm. We don't have to bicker on this discussion page about every single movie added to the list. Of course, we still have to avoid going overboard and begin just naming plot twists, but that goes without saying.

Ununnilium: Because that's the whole point, that these are The Things You Don't Need To Add Spoilers For. As you said, it goes completely against what the trope is trying to say. That is, in fact, why we are bickering; because each individual example is important.

Solandra: Would the twist in The Third Man count? They even show Orson Welles' face on the DVD cover!

Whogus The Whatsler: Well, when you think about it, that just tells the uninformed viewer that Orson Welles is in the movie. They might figure out, from Welles' absence early on and all the references to the late Harry Lime, that the dead guy is in fact going to turn up perfectly alive, but then again they might not. That being said, it is a really famous twist anyway.

Susan Davis: Would the similar twist in Laura count?

Morgan Wick: Even if people would be spoiled, the fact that there are spoilers should be obvious from the topic.

Ununnilium: IMHO, The Third Man counts, but Laura doesn't. I think the rule is that it should be something that's well-known enough by itself, or was at one point, that Popcultural Osmosis did its work.

Later: Based on the above rule, taking Laura out:

  • Laura: Neither is Gene Tierney.

And I really think Batman should be taken out. We're talking the general public here, after all, or at least the section of the general public that's likely to watch a Batman movie (which includes not just preexisting Bat-fans, but action-movie fans in general). I doubt many of them could tell you who shot Bruce's parents in the 1989 film.

Andrew Leprich: Eh, Batman is one of the highest-grossing movies of all time. According to IMDB it's number #38 USA and #80 Worldwide, and that's without inflation. It broke the opening weekend record when it was released. I mean, far more people have seen Batman than Soylent Green and The Third Man. I mean, really, is there anyone with an interest in superhero/action films that hasn't seen Batman yet? I'm exaggerating of course, obviously not everybody (or even most) of any given group has seen any given movie, but that goes without saying and applies to any movie.

However, if you consider the criteria for this trope to be the popularity of the twist itself (and not the actual movie), I agree that Batman doesn't quite belong here, as The Joker killed Bruce's parents isn't exactly on par with Luke, I Am Your Father and Tyler Durden Isn't Real. But in terms of the popularity of the movie, I contend that Batman belongs on here before most of the current examples.

In any case, I have no beef if you take it out, it really doesn't matter to me.

Duckluck: This trope is turning into one of those hellish Wikipedia notability battlegrounds, and it's also going to ruin the endings of a lot of movies for people (I personally only knew about half). I'd suggest leaving off the spoilers themselves and just having the names of the movies. After all, if they're really common knowledge, people know them anyway. If someone has to ask, it's probably a bad example.

Andrew Leprich: As I said before, I don't see the harm in using spoiler tags, since this is so subjective and YMMV, not to mention possibly regional-sensitive. It does go against what the entry is saying, but in my view it doesn't detract from the entry's message, especially if we put a disclaimer with our reasoning. This is a great trope, but we shouldn't have to bicker about every example added to the list. And count me in as someone who has had several works spoiled for him by this.

Ununnilium: I'd rather not use spoiler tags. But just having the name of the work might actually be a good idea. For one thing, it'd provide a rather easy way to tell wether or not something "counts". (If you have a bunch of people coming in here and saying, "...so what happens in Movie that I'm supposed to know?", it doesn't count.)

Of course, on the other hand, for something like The Strange Case Of Doctor Jekyll And Mr Hyde, someone might not even realize the spoiler is a spoiler. Hmmmmm. What d'you guys think?

Morgan Wick: I objected to The Usual Suspects because not only had I never heard of it, it barely made sense to me. I barely even know the plot (and I don't think I even know that), let alone who all the characters are. Granted, you don't need to understand the plot or any of the characters of Citizen Kane other than Kane himself to understand that It Was His Sled...

Andrew Leprich: You've never heard of The Usual Suspects? What planet do you live on? Just kidding, I haven't heard of many of these works myself. I would completely support just having the name of the work, but I don't think such a major change should be made until a clear consensus is formed. What do you guys think?

Andrew Leprich: I'd just like to bump this to the top of All Recent Changes, since this was never really resolved. Ununnilium, I'd like to know your reasoning for being against spoiler tags so, it's worked out quite well for entries such as Treacherous Advisor. But if not that, we should at least start just having the name of the work, in my view.

Morgan Wick: I meant the twist, not the movie itself.

Ununnilium: Because this entry is different. The whole point is that these spoilers aren't spoilers anymore. Putting them in spoiler tags says "No, wait, they really are spoilers, and this page is totally pointless".

Andrew Leprich: But just having the name of the work goes against the entry as well, if not more so, because you're not even naming the spoilers.

Ununnilium: Well, in that case, the idea is that the spoiler is so well-known that just the name of the entry should evoke it. However, really, I'd rather just leave it as it is.

Andrew Leprich: Fine with me. ^_^

Jisu: Defending my own examples here, but who doesn't know the end of Eva anymore?

Ununnilium: Lots of people. It took me years of being steeped in anime fandom before I was spoiled to it.

Lale: Even those of us who have seen End of Eva don't know how it ended. That's one Mind Screw plot you can't spoil if you had the rest of your life to explain it.

Tanto: I might question the inclusion of all the Potter endings. I don't read the books or participate in the fandom, but even I had heard about the Snape/Dumbledore thing. The others are all Greek to me. Again, I wonder what the "everybody knows this" audience is here. Potter fans? Fantasy fans?

Ununnilium: I agree. Taking out:

  • All of the impressive Twist Endings in Harry Potter:
    • The Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone: Quirrel is the villain, not Snape.
    • The Chamber of Secrets: Voldemort is the Heir of Slytherin.
    • The Prisoner of Azkaban: Scabbers is Peter Pettigrew.
    • The Goblet of Fire: Alastor Moody is Barty Crouch, Jr.
    • The Order of the Phoenix: Sirius dies.

Duckluck: I think the first book/movie's twist is at least as well known as Snape killing Dumbledore, if only because everyone knows Snape sticks around (how else could he kill Dumbledore?).

Ununnilium: Good point, but IMHO, who it actually was isn't as well-known.

Ununnilium: Took out:

...because the episode itself isn't that well-known, and the ending less so.

Looney Toons: Because I want to note this somewhere, and the main entry doesn't seem to be the right place... When Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince came out, there were several cases where customers waiting on line outside bookstores to get their copies were victims of "drive-by spoilings" — teenagers who shouted out "Snape kills Dumbledore!" as they rode past the lines.

Dark Sasami: Took out Suzumiya Haruhi No Yuutsu because jeez louise, the show is STILL RUNNING! And I didn't know that little tidbit, TYVM. Haruhi is on my list of shows to get to, but I haven't gotten there yet. And it's hardly a common part of pop culture!

Jisu: Although I didn't add the item, I feel compelled to apologize, because I didn't know that anybody didn't know the identities of Yuki, Mikuru, Itsuki and Haruhi yet, and would have disbelieved anyone that called 'spoiler!' on it.

Morgan Wick: (stares googly-eyed and thinks, "are you living in Japan?") I've only heard of the show through this site.

Dark Sasami: Took Haruhi out again.

Smokie: Really? I didn't know it's possible to know the show, but not knowing Haruhi is god. Wow. How the hell is it possible to not get that fact spoilered?

Robin Goodfellow: As has been said, just about everything on this page is a potential spoiler for somebody. More than half the current examples I either didn't know, or wouldn't have had I not seen the movie (and in a couple of cases would have really pissed me off to encounter cold like this — and I've just had Half Blood Prince ruined, thank you). It's very risky making assumptions about what is or is not common knowledge; just because you and the people you associate with know about it doesn't mean it's really entered the public consciousness; it's the difference between "Everybody knows that," and "I know that, so everybody else should too." This trope should be limited to those examples which are really established (like Kane), and I think there actually aren't that many that qualify. The only other effective solution seems to be to just have the title, but not the details. I strongly vote for making such a change.

Twin Bird: Hmm...maybe. I knew nearly everything on there, but for a few, I was mad when they were spoiled in the first place. Let's say, the most hard-and-fast: Empire Strikes Back, Soylent Green, Old Yeller, Metroid (only due to all the sequels), Jekyll and Hyde, Sailor Moon (again only due to the sequels). Crying Game and Waiting for Godot seem borderline, but I'm not sure...

Dark Sasami: Waiting for Godot may be borderline. I don't know that it's something that matters to anybody — it's not like there's really a plot to spoil.

The Crying Game, however, has been the second poster child for this trope for years. It's a staple of talk show and sitcom comedic reference. It's almost always referred to as "that chick in The Crying Game." As in "...next you'll be telling me that chick in The Crying Game is a dude!"

I'll say this: these things need time to mature. Why don't we put up a blanket ban on anything created this millennium?

Robin Goodfellow: I second that. I agree about Godot — that he never shows up is central to the (lack of) point, and anyway it doesn't actually "spoil" anything to know that. And Crying Game is pretty well established. Not so sure about Fight Club. Also, I don't think it's a problem if the work isn't well-known; I know none of the anime examples, but then I wouldn't be likely to, and I'll accept that fans would consider the twists well-known.

Meanwhile, I took out Half Blood Prince — even the descriptive comment acknowledged it's not actually universal knowledge, fer cryin' out loud!

Twin Bird: I've taken off Titanic, not because I think anyone doesn't know, but because it wasn't really a spoiler in the first place. As a matter of history within even the American Small Reference Pools, absolutely everyone knew, walking in, that the ship was going to sink, and the opening scenes make it pretty clear that Leo Di Caprio is going to die in the flashback.

Ununnilium: Taking out:

  • Batman (1989 film): The Joker killed Bruce's parents.
  • Waiting for Godot: Godot never does arrive.

...due to above discussion.

Tanto: This page is starting to get...problematic. I don't think there's any way to make it work for everyone, or even nearly everyone, and due to the nature of the topic it might be doing more harm than good if that's the case.

Solandra: That's because no matter how famous a twist ending is, there'll always be at least one person who won't know and will become pissed when someone spoils it for them. Remember the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment! (with an 0.9% bonus for entries that demand subjectiveness)

Twin Bird: Here's the thing, though: pretty much any reference to Soylent Green will mention the twist ending, not as such, but as the most memorable image, a very spoilerish horse's head. The same with Citizen Kane, Jeckyll & Hyde, The Crying Game, Old Yeller, Murder on the Orient Express, and The Scarlet Pimpernel. (Honestly, you could probably put NGE back up for this reason.) Contrast with a film only famous for having a twist, like Usual Suspects or The Mousetrap (I almost posted who it here, but my better judgment took hold at the last second.). The Empire Strikes Back is slightly different in that the twist isn't immediately linked with the film the way as Citizen Kane and "Rosebud," but rather has become a meme of its own, gaining recognition separate from the film. The same with Planet of the Apes, the relevant Twilight Zone episodes, and Final Fantasy VII. Finally, there are those in series that went on long enough afterwards that anyone who's heard of the series knows the twist, and might not even be aware it was ever a secret. This includes Ocarina of Time, Metroid, Dallas, Sailor Moon, and Yu-Gi-Oh. So that leaves...Usual Suspects, Fight Club (to those who didn't watch Rosie in the Oprah-clone years), Psycho, The Maltese Falcon, The Third Man, and The Sixth Sense.

Robin Goodfellow: I wonder if "I am your father" even counts as a twist any more, given the existence of the "prequels." Since they are based entirely on the build-up to Anakin becoming Vader, there is no surprise later on. Of course, this points out how problematic the whole prequel thing is: how will your children watch these movies? Will they go I through VI? If so, they won't get any impact at all from "I am your father," nor "I have a sister." "There is another" in V will also presumably have no mystery value. Ben's outright lies to Luke in IV will be jarring and somewhat inexplicable ("Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" still doesn't reconcile). Nor will they see what the big deal is when Vader first appears at the end of 3. But this is totally off the point by now, so I'll stop.

Ununnilium: Personally, I grew up knowing Vader was his father; I didn't even realize it was originally a shocking twist.

Robin Goodfellow: You better believe it. The revelation generated a lot of heavy debate. My friends and I weren't the only ones spending a lot of discussion on what the implications were, what Luke would end up doing, whether Vader was even telling the truth, and so forth. That's a pleasure you missed out on; I'm sad for you, really.

Herbarius: Well, I for myself was only mildly surprised when I saw it the first time. If I recall correctly, someone spoilered it already but I didn't believe it until I saw part II (yes, TWO!) myself. ... Also I always thought "Darth Vader" was some kind of "partial anagram" of "Dark Father", and so thought the name was in itself a Mythology Gag... Well, the prequels finally ruined that and made "Darth" a title every Sith bears - even the emperor! (Note I always stayed way clear of Expanded Universe material, with the exception of video games.)

arromdee: Contributing late to an early discussion: I'm new to Harry Potter and just recently saw the movies (no books here). I was unaware of all the spoilers listed above except for Snape killing Dumbledore.

Ununnilium: Took out the spoiler tags for that one. By definition, no spoiler tags on this page. Either we should have it or we shouldn't, but no awkward halfway-there bits.

Tanto: Metal Gear Solid 2 is not well-known enough to be an example.
Tanto: I know more than your average bear about anime, but I've barely even heard of SHUFFLE. People really need to stop abusing this page. Just because everyone in your particular fandom knows about it doesn't mean it belongs here...

Ununnilium: Agreed. Cutting it:

Twin Bird: I don't really understand why Neon Genesis Evangelion was cut...I mean, the way people talk about it, you'd think the entire series was the last three episodes and the films.

Charred Knight: Generally because it would take to long to explain what actually happened. Which leaves people to post stupid crap like "Everyone dies" (I just removed that one) which no matter how you slice is not how it ended. How many people returned depends on if you're an optimist (most people returned) or a pessimist (most people didn't).

Sikon: Hotaru was not the Messiah of Silence. Perhaps I should clarify this.

There are two Messiahs, both of whom can use the Holy Grail. The "good" Messiah can save the world, while the "bad" Messiah, the Messiah of Silence, can destroy it by bringing about the Silence.

It is revealed that the good Messiah is Sailor Moon (it's not stated outright, but it's bloody obvious by the end of the season). The Outer Senshi mistakenly believe that Sailor Saturn is the bad Messiah, while the real Messiah of Silence is Mistress 9, the alien entity that possesses Hotaru's body.

So, Hotaru is the same person as Sailor Saturn, but Mistress 9, the Messiah of Silence, is a different person who shares Hotaru's body. In the end, Hotaru's real self destroys Mistress 9, allowing herself to awaken as Saturn and sacrifice herself to save the world.

Tanto: Fuck you, Bob.

Also, Death Note is not well-known enough yet for this.

Bob: I didn't think it was bad enough to warrant a "Fuck you". I honestly think my edits were an improvement to the article, and not just for the humor of it.

I agree with you on the Death Note example not being famous enough though.

Tanto: Not only was it not funny, it goes against the entire spirit of the article — as you'd know if you read the discussion, where we hashed the whole thing out a long time ago. And it's a pain in the ass to fix.

You don't like spoilers — we get it. That doesn't give you the right to impose your view of them on the whole wiki, especially an entry like this one that's about spoilers. I direct you to the Spoiler Policy.

Bob: Hmm, the Spoiler Policy has been updated since the last time I read it. Okay, I won't do something like this again. I apologize. Still, a "Fuck you" might be considered a little overreacting.

Tanto: Eh, that's borderline vandalism, and you can't speak against that kind of thing in strong enough terms. It might be an overreaction, but stuff like that really pushes my buttons.

Tanto: Deleted High Plains Drifter and The Wickerman because they're not examples, the Deathly Hollows spoiler because it has no value in terms of this entry and is just going to piss people off, and the Messiah of Silence bit on Sailor Moon since it is both not an example and evidently under some dispute, as per the above discussion.

Jisu: The Bible example is a common joke parodying this concept. If anyone thought it was supposed to be a real spoiler, you don't know your religious history, and you have no sense of humour. Removing. (Yes! I finally get to take something off instead of the other way around!)

HeartBurn Kid: Put it back. This is not Wikipedia; we dig our jokes around here (how else do you think Darth Vader ended up on the list for Scary Black Man?)

  • Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War: Sigurd dies (likely so well known because it was central to one of the best remembered elements of the game)

Tanto: Not even close. This is a game that was never released in America, in a series that was virtually unknown outside of Japan until 2002, five years after it came out, and which hasn't been referenced since. There are probably Fire Emblem fans who don't know this one.

Blork: A suggestion on how to avoid these problems of whether something counts or not. Perhaps we could require each example to state a case where the spoiler has been treated as common knowledge (not including elsewhere in the same series). So for example we have that Family Guy quote for Citizen Kane and the Simpsons scene that casually spoils The Empire Strikes Back. Trope names that include spoilers (Planet of the Apes Ending, Samus Is a Girl, Jekyll & Hyde) would probably count too.

Bob: I'm not sure about some the Cowboy Bebop example, I had never heard anything about it until I saw it here (thanks for that, by the way). It seems to me that is a It Was His Sled only in some circles and that the general population is blissfully unaware of it, which would mean that it isn't a true It Was His Sled. What do the rest of you guys think?

Tanto: Say it with me now: Knights Of The Old Republic is not an example.

Bob: And neither is Death Note.

Tanto: That's different; this trope deals with spoilers that are known before you even start to view. Really really obvious internal spoilers are something else; Devil in Plain Sight usually.

Shale: Yanked the "Dumbledore is gay" example from Harry Potter because it's not actually a spoiler, since it's not a plot point.

Shazzbaa: I'm sort of surprised this isn't here... but in Portal, thanks to the virus that is the internet, everyone knows that the cake is a lie. I haven't played the game; I don't even know what it means — but I know that the cake is a lie, because no one really bothers to treat it like a spoiler. It's everywhere in the geekier circles of the internet, and even though it's absurdly recent, almost everyone around me can get the jokes whether they've played the game or not just because of Popcultural Osmosis. Of course, I'm going to an Art College and majoring in comic books, so I don't know if that's just because I hang out in really geeky circles — so I propose it here instead of adding in the entry. But when even my mom started making jokes about how the cake is a lie, I knew it must've gone pretty far.

Tanto: There's definitely some merit to the "you hang out in geeky circles". (Most of us do, I'd guess.) It's hard to get the proper perspective on this kind of thing when you're surrounded by people who share your tastes, which is something I wish people would think about more often before editing this entry.

As for Portal, I'm still just really uneasy about putting something here from a six-month-old video game. That's two strikes right there. It just doesn't seem to me that it's really assimilated beyond the geek world. I've deleted it a couple times, but maybe I'm just being too stubborn about it.

Shazzbaa: The main thing that has me wanting to put it up is simply the fact that it isn't treated like a spoiler. There's a significant set of words in Bioshock, too (for example), but as far as I've seen that was kept far more secret by gamers who didn't want to ruin the twists for others. However, it's hard to be someone who plays games, or even someone who's friends with people who play games, and not know that the cake is a lie when it's been leaked all over the internet and made the subject of various reference jokes, webcomics, and witty limericks. Most places I've seen don't hide it or say "warning: spoiler!" before saying it. It's just treated as a well-used reference, not as a hidden surprise.

Admittedly, if you don't travel in gaming circles AT ALL, you may have missed it... but one last thought: if that's so, will you really be so upset to bump into it here, having missed all the other references to it on the internet? I mean, people who don't travel in gaming circles might also not know that Aeris dies because they don't know or care who Aeris is. But that's still It Was His Sled, because among the people it matters to, it's already well-known.

But all that said, I can understand waiting until it's the game is at least a bit older, so you guys' call.

Tanto: Eh, I'll leave it in. If someone else has an objection, they can take it out.

Faris from Final Fantasy V is not well-known enough to be an example, though. On this, I will not budge.

Inyssius: One thing. Regarding Portal: the cake is NOT a lie. Ha! Bet you'd know that if you'd played the game!

Inyssius again: ... and since I had to tell you that, the actual cake-related twist is apparently not his sled. Yanked.

Shazzbaa: Eh... I still disagree. First off, the fact that the cake shows up before the end credits doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a lie — G La DOS promised you cake which you never got. As an obsessed Portal fangirl now that I've played it, I've seen extreme disagreement among fans and gamers over whether or not the thing you bring up is actually significant to the plot of the game, so I wouldn't consider that the twist. The twist, I would argue, that everyone knows is, for one, the phrase "the cake is a lie," which changes the way the very first piece of the game is viewed, where G La DOS keeps promising you cake; and for two, the fact that G La DOS is a big fat liar who doesn't give you any cake at all. The fact of the matter is that the phrase "The Cake Is A Lie" was originally a surprise worthy of those spoiler tags I keep sticking it in, but now it is casually added to t-shirts without any fear of spoiling it for anyone.

I'll respect the opinion of the wiki and I don't want to have an edit war, but I will submit that the response "Everyone knows that, sure, but then there's another twist later, so this isn't an example!" doesn't mean that it wasn't his sled.

<random troper>: Portal should definitely be in here. "The cake is a lie" has become a meme of truly epic proportions, in fact about the only other examples I can think of offhand with the same sort of recognition are "I am your father" and the trope namer. Like Shazzbaa said, this particular twist shows up on shirts and gets dropped in casual conversation all the time...*everyone* knows the cake is a lie, even if they've not heard of Portal.

TTBF: Even if it is a meme of truly epic proportions, the fact remains that the cake ISN'T a lie. G La DOS says "there will be cake", and then at the end there is cake. "The cake is a lie" was scrawled on a wall by a crazed test subject.

shishikyuu The meme is so incredibly well known that I'm absolutely sure there are loads of people who have heard it lots of times and start playing portal without knowing what it is related to. (I only made the connection when reading the scribbles on the wall.)

Don Quigleone: I'm surprised no one has mentioned Romeo And Juliet, it must be so obvious that noone thought of it, I knew the ending at the age of five. (ask me not how blame Popcultural Osmosis) It's by no means obvious (within the confines of the play) that they both die, but everyone knows it, and the manner of there death too.

DomaDoma: Actually, the prologue goes:

From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whole misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents' strife.

But since everyone knows the precise details, yeah, toss it in anyway.

Don Quigleone: Damn, I forgot that, it could be the prologue was added later, but probably not, however the manner in which they die (which is a twist) is completely known, So Yeah

Tanto: Good god, man. Just say "no" to nitpicking. You don't need a whole fucking (spoilered!) line to voice your "objection" to a blanket statement about 300. It doesn't matter one bit, and it ruins the reading of the entry.

Also, the Penny Arcade quote is funny, but it seems a little too long to be a page quote.

Solo Jones I agree with Bob on the Cowboy Bebop spoiler, I just started watching the series.

I was wondering about the Beauty and the Beast spoiler though, does that really count as a spoiler? I mean the same thing happened in the fairy tale forever ago, should we also have spoilers saying "Cinderella fits the shoe" "Snow White isn't really dead" I don't see it as a "twist" ending or a spoiler.

And I like the Penny Arcade quote, I think it sums up this trope nicely.

Bob: I'll spoiler the Cowboy Bebop example. Since spoiler marks shouldn't be necessary for a It Was His Sled, I'm not sure if it qualify as the trope nowadays.

DomaDoma: {{Fly}}, just sit on your hands for a week and a half. By then, that countdown will have reached zero and that text message will be well and truly sent.

EllieNSian: If you need to put spoiler tags in (re:Cowboy Bebop) it shouldn't be on here. As two big fans of anime we have no idea what the ending is and would not like it spoiled for us.

Bob: I'm cutting it then. I guess that it used to be a It Was His Sled, but that it isn't widespread enough to qualify. Saved for posterity here.

  • Cowboy Bebop: Spike dies in the final episode of the series.
    • Shinichiro Watanabe acually said that he could neither confirm nor deny Spike's death.

Krine: It's funny; I saw Citizen Kane knowing exactly what the spoiler was, so to find out that nobody actually finds out that it was his sled came off as a twist ending to me, with equal parts "downer ending" thrown in for good measure when they burn it unwittingly. Should this be noted somewhere, somehow, in the main entry?

Charred Knight: Deleted these two for not being Twist Endings, and everyone knowing going in that they where going to die. I also rewrote the Spider-man entry to have the actual twist ending listed.

Charred Knight: Deleted this one because its an origin tale, and not even an ending, let alone Twist Ending.

  • Bruce Wayne's parents are killed in a mugging. They don't get better.

Charred Knight: Deleted this one because ITS A FUCKING CATCHPHRASE! A well known Catchphrase but not a twist, not an ending, and not an important plotpoint. This is not something everyone knows about this, its about a well known twist ending.

Tanto: Re-deleted them. They don't count.

Also:

Not even fucking close. Jesus, are people so ensconsed in their insular little worlds that they can't realize that is is not common knowledge? This game's very existence isn't common knowledge.

Later: Cleared out a bunch of natter as well.

Still later: Took out R&J; that's Foregone Conclusion. Also, no:

Still still later:

  • Titanic: The boat sinks. (Commence trout slapping.)

Slapping ahoy: Not only is it really a Foregone Conclusion, it's already up there in the main body.

Twin Bird: You know, the number of times it's been added (I think I even might have added it once, before The Great Crash, but I can't remember whether I added it or just tried to make a case here), it might be time to admit that Neon Genesis Evangelion is common knowledge. It's definitely common knowledge in Japan, doubly so in anime circles worldwide, and you'll get a nice Internet Backdraft if you bring it up in essentially any forum on any topic. It's aired on Adult Swim multiple times. A live-action prequel was made by a major studio in Germany. For God's sake, a Questionable Content strip is entitled "Neon Genesis Pintsizelion" (granted, it's not exactly a Small Reference Pools strip, but most of the obscurity is limited to music trivia).

Actually, I'm going to take this one more step. According to IMDB, American films or shows that reference or spoof Neon Genesis Evangelion:

Tanto: People who have seen Evangelion can't tell you what it's about. It's more famous for being confusing than it is for anything that actually happens, IMO.

Not to get all Wikipedia Updater on you, but I'd have to see some evidence for those (without even going into the difference between "reference or spoof" and "ruin the ending").

Twin Bird: Um...like I said, my source is IMDB. And no, they don't spoil the ending, but they kind of ruin your idea that only a few otaku have heard of the show.

Also, do you really think "everyone" knows the ending to Ender's Game? Or The Third Man, or even Citizen Kane?

We essentially spoil it at the very beginning of the series page. You do have a valid objection in that you can't really describe the ending, but I'd say "Shinji loses his mind" is enough.

Charred Knight: Those are series and movies that reference Evangelion. For example in One Hour Photo, a toy of Eva 01 (I believe) is given to one of te kids. The problem with Eva is that the ending is to complicated for this. Referencing Citizen Kane is relativly easy, Tiny Toons, and Simpsons did entire episodes spoofing the movie.

The question is that if we do count It Was His Sled for the Japanese than Evangelion would count (but only in Japan)

Also, do you really think "everyone" knows the ending to Ender's Game? Or The Third Man, or even Citizen Kane?

Tanto: More people than Evangelion, that's for sure. Anime is (still, and despite the demographics of this wiki) a niche market. Literature and films aren't.

Sean Tucker: I'll explain the ending that falls into this trope right now: Rei clones appear out of nowhere, hug people, and turn them into Tang. Asuka and Shinji are the last two people on Earth.

Tanto: UNCLE BEN IS A FUCKING ORIGIN STORY. It doesn't fucking count if it happens in the first episode/chapter/issue/ten minutes. Jesus, get it through your heads, people.

Charred Knight: Spider-man was conceived as a one issue story that Stan Lee wanted to do but was never given the go ahead, so he included it in a comic book series last issue. It's not Spider-man's fault that it became popular so Marvel made a series about it.

Tanto: That doesn't change the fact that it is one, however. It doesn't count.

Charred Knight: So if someone made Citizen Kane 2, where Kane returns as a Zombie, Citizen Kane wouldn't count?

Tanto: That's different. Spider-Man has been running continuously for fifty years with the Uncle Ben thing as his defining moment. It's not a plot point or a Twist Ending; it's what makes his character what it is. I think it's safe to say that Uncle Ben is officially Backstory at this point. You can't know about Spider-Man without knowing about Uncle Ben.

Charred Knight: The point was that when it was conceived the burgalar being Uncle Ben's killer was a twist ending. The end of the story is Peter unmasking the killer only to find it be the man he let go because he was selfish.

  • Death Note : L dies. Light dies. Actually, pretty much every main character dies at some point.

Tanto: Recent, niche, and already deleted before — that's the trifecta of "not an example".

Bob: I'm going to argue that the ending of The Usual Suspects doesn't belong here. I don't think the actual Twist Ending is a It Was His Sled, because people just know that there is a confusing Twist Ending but they don't know what the twist is. At least that's the impression I've gotten from asking people about it.

Example moved here (and spoiler-marked) for the length of discussion.

trimeta: Is the "There's a skating bear in the background" on the main page supposed to be a reference to that classic video of guys in white shirts passing basketballs (while you're supposed to ignore the guys in black shirts also passing basketballs), where a guy in a gorilla suit walks past and waves at the camera? If not, maybe this example should be included.
Tanto: Pulled the "Other" category because it's amazingly stupid and, lacking context, doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. (Did someone put a fanfiction example on there? Because that might be the most egregious abuse of this page I've ever seen.)

Other

  • The surgeon was a woman.
    • As was the barber.
  • You're not supposed to do any of the questions.
    • Just sign your name.
    • Alternately, just do questions 3, 5, 7, 9, and 13.
  • Only one person was going to St. Ives.
  • To get to the other side.
  • You're supposed to be glad they didn't say banana.
  • The other coin is a nickel.
  • It's a polar bear.
  • The operator hears the hunter shoot the injured hunter to make sure he's dead.
  • You will die. (eventually)
  • You should always switch your choice.
  • You don't bury survivors.
  • "What would the other guard say is through this door?"
  • The murder weapon was an icicle.
    • or the cops ate it.
  • You're the bus driver, remember?
  • To see time fly.
  • Roosters can't lay eggs.
    • One half of a rabbit can't eat.
  • Did the landlord really put the last guest in a room?
  • Look closely at the second set of cards. It's not just the card you chose that was removed.
  • All the married people stayed on.
  • They're all the same guy.
  • There's a moonwalking bear in the background.
  • She reasoned that he would attend her sister's funeral as well.
  • John IS the Demons.

Transient Wikian: Restored the "Other" category in full knowledge that it doesn't fit precisely into the letter of this page, but in the belief that it captures the spirit of this page. These are the twists, punchlines, and solutions to all manner of jokes and brainteasers that everyone has heard at least a few of. I humbly request that we give it the benefit of the doubt,

Tanto: Yeah, but unlike listing the name of a work, these don't have any context whatsoever, so unless you've heard the joke or been presented the brain-teaser, they don't make any damn sense. And there's no criteria to speak of — they get more and more obscure as you go down the list, with people happily beating the joke into the ground.

Transient Wikian: I'm not going to restore it again because that smacks of an edit war, but with your level of dedication to the importance of a community effort I'm surprised at you. I humbly suggest that you may be letting your personal sense of what makes "good content" get in the way of the natural growth of a wiki. Comments like "amazingly stupid" and "doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense" and "doesn't make any damn sense" are not conducive to the inclusive, informal that the rules are intended to foster.

Charred Knight: I am going to agree with Tanto on this one, in the past we have gotten rid of bad jokes if they get too popular. See the massive deletions that Discontinuity received. The problem with the jokes is that their is no context. They expect people to have heard of them, and when they don't you don't understand whats going on. Frankly I have not heard of most of those jokes. All it is are just people listing punchlines to jokes they have heard. The only joke that I know everyone has heard of is "Why did the Chicken cross the road"

Nybbler: I guess the problem is that things fall OUT of popular culture as much as they fall in them. I didn't know Rosebud was his sled when I saw Citizen Kane in 1991 or thereabouts, and I suspect most people my age wouldn't know (my wife didn't either, until she saw it). The Prisoner I did know, though, and I think it's still well known among SF fans. It's not like knowing that one really spoils anything. The twist in Murder On The Orient Express is definitely going to be known among mystery fans still, Ten Little Indians and The Murder Of Roger Ackroyd perhaps less so. The ending of Sixth Sense is well-known now, but will it be in another generation? Knowledge of Luke Skywalker's parentage isn't going away anytime soon. The twist in Angel Heart and Jacobs Ladder was well known for a while, but neither film has remained popular enough to stick in the collective memory.
Shazzbaa: Should I add new thoughts on old topics down here, or to the topic they pertain to? I noticed someone yoinked the Portal example and I disagree with the reasoning, but wanted the thoughts of others so as to avoid some kind of Edit War. I added a reply but wasn't sure if people will notice something buried deep in the middle of the discussion page. For future reference, should I post down here or just leave it in its proper section?

Sohvan: I re-added the Portal example to the article, I hope no one minds. The game has been out for a year now, and many of the examples in this article are already more obscure. For example "Cake is a lie" gives more than 30 times the amount of results on google compared to "Aeris/Aerith dies"

  • Adam Dodd won Survival Of The Fittest V1. This troper knew this before reading any of the archives of the first game. The fact that he's a participant in V3 makes it all the more glaringly obvious.

Tanto: Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit here. I've never even heard of this before. Anyone?

Premium Irritation: That would be my bad. I didn't quite read the trope description properly.

Charred Knight: That's the problem for a lot of people. Some people really only read the first line of the thing, and then post something that isn't an example. Hell I am surprised Discontinuity hasn't reverted to a complete mess.

Violet: How hard would it be to add "Jesus Dies" somewhere on the picture?

Where exactly does the trope name come from?

Tanto: RTFA. (It's mentioned in the page quote, the body of the text, and the examples.)

Mullon: While it looks like it has been mentioned already above, I would like to contest Murder on the Orient Express. Me and my friend read it a couple of years ago, and if we had read that spoiler we would have been pissed. Maybe the ending is know among mystery enthusiasts, but not the general public.

Bob: I agree. Moving it here for discussion.

  • Murder on the Orient Express: Everybody is in on the murder, except for the detectives.
Man Without A Body: Can we please rename this trope? There are a surprising number of people who haven't seen the movie. Why can't we call it "Famous Twist Ending" or something?

Tanto: Because that name blows and demonstrates a complete lack of creativity or style? And because your argument runs counter to what this trope is even about?

Bob: I agree with Man Without A Body. I didn't think much of it until I accidentally spoiled it for my brother. Who had bought the DVD recently. Man, I felt like a jerk over that. That name does lack creativity and style.

Man Without A Body: I watched that movie with my flatmates a few weeks ago, and two of them didn't know what Rosebud was. I'm pretty sure my sister-in-law still doesn't, either.

Bob: On behalf of me never even having heard of this book, I'm going to cut it. Feel free call me an illiterate schmuck if you disagree.

Also, I've never heard of this movie, except that I've seen it in several trope examples. All of them with spoilermarks.

And I don't this one famous enough. Sure, maybe among Nerds and Geeks, but we've got to think of the "normals" as well.

Tanto: "The Lady or the Tiger?" isn't a book; it's a short story. It's taught in virtually every middle and high school English class in America (because it's simplistic and demonstrates the perverse nature of authors, but nevermind).

Bob: Okay, I guess that answers that. The question is, do people outside of the states know of it? Because this is "It Was His Sled", not "It Was His Sled IN AMERICA".

Tanto: Well, how do you want to play that, really? Yes, the wiki is international... but I imagine that there are many places where Vader being Luke's father isn't common knowledge, either, and I don't think anyone's contesting that as an example. I hate to bring up Portal again, but it's virtually unknown outside the dorky internet circles. You're either going to have to say "Well, okay, this isn't well-known outside the area or demographic where it's been generally circulated, but it's still an example", or you have to say "The trope is for things that everyone everywhere knows", in which case you're going to have to do a slash-and-burn on the example list, because there aren't that many examples by that definition.

The first option has a ton of examples; the second has maybe a half-dozen, I think. I don't have an answer or really an opinion. It's just a decision that has to be made about the nature of the page.

Bob: That is true. Another problem is the time issue Nybbler outlined above. I think we're simply going to have to do this the way we're doing it now: cut examples that doesn't fit, move border-line cases here for discussion, and above all else: keep it civil.

Twin Bird: Frankly, it seems hypocritical of you, Tanto, not to care about examples being spoiled to foreigners with the number of anime (Eva...Eva...Eva...) you've cut on the grounds that "most Americans haven't seen them." Especially when the article body takes care to specify "in the target demographic." Also, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari is an enormously influential film, that essentially single-handedly established the "condensed novel acted out" format we've come to take for granted. Anyone who's at all interested in early silent film will know it backwards and forwards.

In addition, maybe anything else Monty Python is "nerds and geeks" fodder, but for God's sake, Holy Grail? (Although I'd say it doesn't go here because it's not really a twist, as much as a continuation of the absurdity that permeates the film, and, indeed, all their work.)

Tanto: Yes, that would be hypocritical, had I actually done any such thing. I was not the first one to delete Eva; it was agreed that it didn't belong, and I've been keeping it off ever since then. (Plus, I reiterate: People know that it's epically mind-screwy, but the actual events are not so famous. Some people who have seen it can't tell you what happens.) Other than that? How many anime have really famous plot twists, really? I've been deleting Death Note because it's only a couple of years old. The others, I think, are mostly "I know about this; and so should everyone else!" type things, hardly material for this page. Some tropers have made it a practice to rush to this page every time something new and interesting happens — as someone said up the page, the text message will get there eventually, really.

It Was His Sled only happens if you let it. It is not inevitable.

(As for my provincial perspective, well, I don't know any other way to be. I only have the American experience to draw from. I have to take other people's word for it that, say, "The Lady or the Tiger?" isn't famous enough internationally to go here.)

Bob: I cut "The Lady or the Tiger?" assuming that it was a work known internationally, but if it's limited to a specific area, and if the ending is well known within that area, then I'm willing to leave the matter in the hands of someone personally familiar with work in question. Feel free to put it back if you feel that it belongs here.

Also, does the Enders Game example really qualify as a "twist"? It isn't that difficult to see it coming.

Rothul Perhaps for a regular reader of sci-fi, but I know it blew my (admittedly young) mind when I first read it, and the same is true with all I reccomended it to. For all its inroads, Sci-Fi is still a relatively niche market, and I don't feel comfortable assuming the Popcultural Osmosis has happened, when I can name a dozen people I've reccomended the book to, and DIDN'T see it coming.

Clever Pun: I don't really think Fight Club should be on here. I didn't see the movie until just this year, and nothing I'd seen before gave any hint about it. It's ending hasn't osmosed, if you will. It's fairly recent, so that shouldn't be surprising. I won't remove the example yet, as I want to see if anyone else agrees with me.

Ethereal Mutation: Most people I've tried talking about the film with were either completely oblivious about it or already saw it. Nobody only knew exclusively about its plot points. I'd vote for removing it from the list.

Bob: I agree.

  • Fight Club: Tyler Durden is the narrator's other personality.
Ethereal Mutation: Think it might be worthwhile to include From Dusk Till Dawn here? It was filmed with the explicit idea that the Genre Shift towards a vampire film would actually take the audience offguard, but the marketing executives decided to hell with that and advertised it solely on the basis of it being a monster movie. In that sense, it was a pretty major spoiler that got leaked not through Popcultural Osmosis, but by the studio itself.

Bob: That would go under Trailers Always Spoil and You Should Know This Already. It's not famous enough for this.

Charred Knight: You know how something isn't It Was His Sled?

WHEN THEY GET IT WRONG! No Evangelion does not end with everyone except Shinji and Asuka turned to goo, Third Impace failed, and those who want to come back do. In other words everyone not suicidal

Marikina: Does the first Friday the13th count?

Ununnilium: No, because hardly anyone knows about that.

Blork: OK, I've never even heard of this one let alone knew the ending, and the spoiler tags kind of defeat the point of this whole page:

  • Ethan Frome. Mentioned because of its age andthe main characters attempt to kill themselves via Sledicide.

Isn't there a PREVIEW function?

Ununnilium:

  • Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: He's named after the dog.
  • Klaatu Barada Nikto.
    • You missunderstand, Gort IS The Master
  • A Christmas Carol: Scrooge redeems himself. In fairness, this probably wasn't much of a surprise back then either.
  • Pride and Prejudice: Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy realize how foolish they've been to allow misconceptions to stand in the way of True Love, and get back together. Actually, this works well as a general spoiler for the entire output of Jane Austen.
  • Dark Phonenix sacrifices herself before she kills anyone else. It turns out it wasn't really Jean.
    • In an inversion of this, for those who did not follow the comics since 1986, she only came back that one time.
      • This Troper begs to differ, since most people still think it was the real Jean Grey due to the 90's X-Men cartoon...AND about the coming back from the dead business in the early 2000's Jean dies when Wolverine kills her so she doesn't have to suffer as their spaceship is headed into the sun due to "Not-Magneto" Xorn's set up on Grant Morrison's New X-Men run. That death releases the Phoenix Force and she recovers...only to die again shortly thereafter. The next issue deals with Jean being resurrected in the far future by Dark Beast/The virus. THEN her next resurrection was an ENTIRE mini-series so what on earth do you call the premise of Phoenix Endsong? She decides to go back to the White Hot Room previously mentioned and SEEN when she was resurrected by Dark Beast at the end of the New X-Men run. This will probably be edited.

Not A Twist.

I doubt most people are even aware that James Bond was married.

  • In the second Pink Panther film A Shot in the Dark, the shadowy figure stalking Inspector Clouseau and making several attempts on his life is Clouseau's own boss, Chief Inspector Dreyfus, who's gone Ax-Crazy over Clouseau's shenanigans. Also, the sinister Asian man attacking Clouseau in his apartment is Clouseau's own manservant, Cato, whom Clouseau has ordered to attack him to keep himself on his guard. People's familiarity of these twists has less to do with Popcultural Osmosis with the film itself and more to do with the fact that Dreyfus and Cato returned in the sequels, where these plot twists became running gags. And, since A Shot in the Dark doesn't have "Pink Panther" in the title, people are much more likely to see the more titular sequels (Return of the...,...Strikes Again, Revenge of the...) before they happen to stumble across ASITD.
  • Around The World in 80 Days: The travelers arrive in London seemingly too late to make the 80-day deadline. The next chapter is set in the Reform Club, the final destination for Phileas Fogg where the members await his return and he makes it just in time. It's explained the last chapter that Fogg forgot to account for crossing the International Date Line, thus actually arriving in London a day early and finding out just in time to make it to the club.
  • Hal Jordan was possessed not crazy/evil. The yellow weakness is really a living creature made of fear trapped in the Central Power Battery.

Not nearly well-known enough.

Then again, you're not exactly meant to read The Bible as a dramatic work anyway...

  • This troper disagrees. Quite a few biblical stories make more sense as a drama, and the theatre department at my college agrees.
    • So does this troper, and he's a devout Christian. Do you have any idea how much of the Bible was written as poetry? (hint: it's more than just the Psalms and Song of Solomon.)
  • Even worse than "Jesus dies": a friend of this troper got shocked when he told Achilles died in Troy... when the Iliad is Older Than Dirt... and his death coined a popular expression.
    • To your friend's credit, though, Achilles does not die in the Iliad, but instead shortly after the end of the book.

I don't think Corpse Bride belongs on this page. The movie's both obscure and recent enough that plenty of people probably haven't seen it yet, not to mention that it's not exactly a popular and well-known twist ending.

  • Corpse Bride: Lord Barkus murdered Emily. Not really that surprising, considering his shadow is shown in her backstory...

Conversation In The Main Page.

Airship Canon: I'm pretty damn sure Mithos is Yggdrasill qualifies. And I KNOW I stuck that on here in the past. (Also— it seems anything that pops up for Uncyclopedia's Spoiler warning also qualifies.)

Twin Bird: I added War Of The Worlds because it definitely seems to have been intended as a twist, and it's definitely well-known and frequently parodied, to the point that its absence makes me think it met with The Guardians' disapproval. Since it's not mentioned on this page, please tell me when you remove it, why does War Of The Worlds not fit?

Charred Knight: My god the anime section had a lot of obscure series

Amitai: Either obscure, or you haven't seen them yet.

Duckay: If knowing the ending is dependent on having seen them... that's utterly NOT this trope.

Amitai: That's not what I mean. I mean he's probably just out of circles where the shows in question are often discussed.

Duckay: If you have to travel in certain circles to understand it, it's STILL not this trope.

Das Rach: Two things, one a cut and one an addition:

  • I don't think "The Dark Tower" belongs here. First off, I've never seen the ending of the series discussed without spoiler tags. Second off, even most Stephen King fans haven't read that series—they stick to his horror stuff.
  • Will I get flamed off the Internet if I add Rosemary's Baby? Most of the movie and book try to give out the red herring that the cult is trying to do something horrible to her baby, and it's not until the end that you find out Satan is her baby daddy, but nowadays "Rosemary's Baby" is synonymous with "Antichrist."

Amitai: Maybe that's because you only looked at discussions on TV Tropes, and that it's not his most popular work. And comparing it to his other works isn't exactly fair, since his other works are, ya know, other works.

Duckay: I agree, though, that it doesn't belong on this page. It hasn't hit the level of 'everyone knows this', not compared to stuff like The Sixth Sense and Citizen Kane. Comparing it to his other books is unreasonable, sure, if we're talking quality, but that has nothing to do with how well the ending is known.

  • [Re: The Mousetrap] There is, however, an urban legend regarding a cab driver who dropped a number of playgoers off at the theater in question, was stiffed on the tip, and shouted as he drove away [snip]

Mike Rosoft: Again, I believe the recent edit is missing the point, but I am not going to be revert warring.

  • Mike Rosoft: Also removing natter from Romeo and Juliet:
    • And if you're still singing songs about a "Romeo and Juliet romance" then you fail literature FOREVER.
      • Because the only possible interpretation to Romeo and Juliet is, "Love will kill you," and not anything like ignoring differences and overcoming adversity for the sake of a worthy cause, or that pointless fueds have unexpected casualties? Yes, it is a tragedy, but it has weight and merit because of the strength of its romance - remember, their deaths do inspire the feuding families to quit fighting.

—-

Poinf: Is the Sumomomo Momomo example really a case of this trope? I mean,seriously. I've never heard of it,at all. Just wondering,though.

—-

Do any non-fans actually know twists to Lost, or Buffy The Vampire Slayer, or the Star Wars Expanded Universe? I would say they don't belong here. A lot of other stuff, too - Most people couldn't even tell you what The World Ends With You even is, for one.

—-

Removed:

  • John Stalvern is the demons.
    • And then he was a zombie.
  • Shrek: Fiona becomes an ogre at night. Made obvious by the two sequels.
    • I'd venture to say that was not just a twisted ending; it was the second half / middle third of the plot.
  • The Dark Knight: Rachel dies, provoking Harvey Dent to becomes Two-Face. A lot of people thought that this was being saved for part 3. Sadly, they killed off Two-Face and kept the Joker, but the Joker's actor died, while Two-Face's lived. Murphy's Law at work.
  • Dead Poets Society : Neil is Driven to Suicide.
  • Saw: The Jigsaw Killer is some old guy played by Tobin Bell.
  • The Da Vinci Code: The heroine's family have been in the Priory of Sion for generations, and the Holy Grail (i.e. the tomb of Mary Magdalene) was hidden in the Louvre the whole time.
  • Star Wars: Vision of the Future: Luke and Mara get married. Even Mara's Wikipedia page gives this away.
    • And the cover of Sacrifice is Exactly What It Says on the Tin.
    • This troper takes great glee in mentioning Mara's full name whenever possible. Sacrifice spoilers? Not so much.
  • Twilight: Edward's a vampire. I've been told that it's supposed to be a spoiler, but even the back jacket announces it.
    • Also, Jacob is a werewolf.
    • The granddaddy of these is Dracula. In the novel, now a century old, the revelation that Count D is a vampire was a major reveal.
—-
  • Faces of Evil: Link defeats Ganon, but Zelda still won't kiss him.
  • Wand of Gamelon Duke Onkled betrayed the King! And after he's scrubbed all the floors in Hyrule, then they can talk about mercy. Also, Link was somehow trapped inside Lady Alma's mirror.
    • He was a bore, anyway.
—-

Kris Wood: Does the ending of The Count of Monte Cristo count? Also the result of the duel in armour?

Pro-Mole: Is Bokurano a bit too recent, or it was me who knew about it too late? Either way, I'm feeling it wasn't so obvious...

Unless I'm very confused the example of John (The Revelator) is just wrong. John doesn't die or get transfered to the heavenly plane. The entire book is a vision presented in a letter written after the John has seen the vision.

Doug S Machina: Maybe it's just because I'm not a huge anime/manga fan, but I've picked up some from this site and I never knew that L dies in Death Note until I read it here. It's not like Vader being Luke's father, but would every anime fan in the world know it?

batfan: This a really obvious example that just occured to me, but I'm not sure, so I'm putting it here first: Technically, it wasn't revealed until the very end of the movie that Dumbo could use his ears to fly. Before The Reveal, Dumbo's mother was in solitary, Dumbo was stuck as a clown getting pies thrown in his face every night, and Dumbo had recently gotten drunk and was tripping out over pink elephants in the quintessential Disney Acid Sequence. In short, things were looking pretty bad for the poor guy. Then suddenly Dumbo wakes up in a tree, Timothy Mouse realizes that his ears make perfect wings, and the rest is history. So Yeah, I think this counts as one of those examples that is so old and so iconic that no one even remembers that at the time, it was actually a twist. Am I right? Does this count?

I just can't decide: does The Producers fall under this trope? I've known several people who still find it a surprise when Springtime for Hitler is a success (though I don't know why), but most other people who have heard of the film know from the get-go it's a hit. Was it ever a twist, like Soylent Green (that is, hard to imagine not knowing anymore), or was it supposed to be known as far back as the trailer, like Holden hooking up with Alyssa in Chasing Amy?

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