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Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Needs Help, started by harryhenry on Jun 19th 2015 at 11:57:44 AM
Is it worth trying to bring this up again in TRS if there already was an attempt to do so? It seems like that 2015 thread never had the chance to take off but it looks like a wick check wasn't done before either.
There is another discussion here for the interested.
People probably do not know this but, in Last Cloudia, one of the daily achievements is to empty out your soul stockpile, but I haven't figured it out.
Cut this from the First-Person Shooter page.
This is incorrect, for several reasons.
1) The second time you go into the building, you are expressly told to go to the "Level 3" labs. The destination the poster talks about in this example (with the Grays and homeless man) is clearly identified as the Level 2 labs. As soon as you go down the hallway from the Versalife lobby (with the outstretched hand holding the globe), you come across a hallway to your right that leads to the elevator that goes down to Level 3. You don't get the keycode for this elevator until it is told to you by Tracer Tong.
2) It's very obvious where you need to go if you take the backdoor route to Level 3. Anyone running to an elevator and going up instead of down or further in (and missing the obvious cues, signs and mission objective from Tong) is being deliberately ignorant.
3) I have never encountered the Chow dialogue glitch in over ten years of playing the game. If it was there, it was likely patched out in the GOTY edition or subsequent releases.
4) The backdoor route is not the required (or only) route you can take. You can access Level 3 from Level 2, via the aforementioned access near the ramp under the hand. Tong suggests this before you leave, but only says that it's an alternative because the main lobby is likely swarming with Majestic 12 agents.
5) You likely already visited Level 2 in the process of uploading the ROM encoding for Tong, before he orders you to go to Level 3. The Level 2 labs are right down the hall from the computer that hosts the encoding.
6) A Guide Dang It! example involves something that's so difficult to figure out from the clues presented that most people do the wrong action automatically without realizing otherwise. This is an example of someone screwing up and deliberately missing obvious cues in order to force an example.
Didn't there used to be a Guide Dang It! page for when the actual guides screwed something up? What happened to that?
So... why exactly isn't this a YMMV trope?
I got here because the Etrian Odyssey article had an angry and very long rant about some floors being examples of this, in spite of the fact that I did in fact finish those floors without a guide. (one of the problems is clearly intended to be solved logically, another is apparently intended to be brute-forced, which can actually be done in reasonable time)
That's hardly the only example I've seen though; many people have been complaining about games they felt didn't give any hints for problems where I saw hints gallore to the point where I actually felt bored the game forced me to watch those hints when I actually wanted to act on them already. Clearly this is something that's different for everybody, and as such I feel this shouldn't go on any game's main page. We have YMMV pages for that.
As I understand it, it's not YMMV because it's sort of quantifiable. If there's a puzzle or a challenge that has no in-game indication for how it's solved or passed, it qualifies.
Would things that the player is given no hint as to existing but can be quite easily found simply by exploring an area count?
In my opinion, all of this wrangling over whether a solution has to be "impossible" to figure out is kind of pointless, since A.) it can't be literally impossible and B.) if it was impossible to figure out, then how would anyone make a guide explaining it? Unless, of course, there's an official guide released by the game's publisher.
It's not that it's "impossible" to figure out, it's that the game doesn't give you any prior hints or indication of what the solution is.
Think of it like mathematics equations. A simple puzzle (lever pulling, let's say) is 1+1 = 2. Simple, logical, you should be able to figure it out without any outside input.
A more complicated puzzle (a sliding block/platforming puzzle) might be to solve something like 2x+17 = 25. The normal elements of gameplay are there, and there's an in-game hint as to what the right path is.
Guide Dang It! is as if you were given the equation 25x-17y+2z = ?? and told to solve for X. You're missing that hint that makes it possible to solve just by looking at it, and the only way to find the "right" answer is to brute force it to find whatever the game's looking for, without any usable context or guide.
But that's what I was saying. You, in effect, just elaborated on what I already said. I was also pointing out that SOMEONE has to figure it out in order to create a guide/walkthrough.
By the way, I happen to be taking a college-level math course (Alg. 3/Trig. Honors, to be precise) while in high school, so I DO know a thing or two about algebra, and the final problem you gave IS impossible. Not the best analogy.
It's not about it being completely impossible to figure out. It's about the game giving you no hints or information that will help you figure it out—you have to guess blindly if you don't have a guide.
It's the difference between just plugging in every integer for X in my third example and the second example where you have all the clues you need right there, in the puzzle, to figure it out.
Edit: I know the third problem is impossible; that was the point. It doesn't give you enough information to solve on its own; in this case, the "guide" would be the values of Y, Z, and the ?? that give you the "right" value of X.
You know what-this is becoming a REALLY stupid and redundant thread. I'm pretty sure we both have the same point, it's just that we're phrasing it differently and confusing each other.
I don't suppose we could change the picture back to the original one? It was funnier, and made more sense then the one we have now.
Agreed. The new one is all text and the actual visuals in the picture has nothing to do with this trope.
There was an image picking thread for the new image, but no image is better than what is up there right now.
I think that the definition should be that the action required is counterintuitive and there was no easy way to figure it out except through trial and error and even that would be hard. By that definition, the Sonic 3 example is not one because it could be discovered very quickly just by playing with the controller. There are others that are weak because it would be very easy to discover just by experimentation.
What the hell? I've twice now edited the Star Ocean 1 entry, but its not showing up.
The Monster Hunter Series is an example of this Trope.
Will someone add this to JRPG section of Guide Dang it
Rather than splitting JRP Gs arbitrarily in half, maybe pull out the Final Fantasy and Pokemon sections and rename JRPG as "other JRPG"? Would that make the section small enough?
Also I agree with Chad M in that a lot of these examples are not Guide Dang It.
Your proposals are reasonable. Feel free to reassemble the folders and delete any Not An Example examples you see.
The "Other" Category needs to be cleaned up a bit I think. I'm not familiar enough with most of the titles mentioned to do anything myself but I get the feeling that at least some of them belong under other categories.
ALL the categories need cleaning up. What is Mario Galaxy doing in "Adventure"?
I'm pretty sure we need a "Platformer" section The genre is currently divided between "Action", "Adventure", and "Other".
Okay, I've tried to clean things up a bit, at least for the games I'm familiar with.
Can I create a page for Survival Horror? I see games like Silent Hill under the "Action" page.
Funstuffof Doom: Is it just me, or do we have way too many justifying edits on this page? Seriously, folks, if it's not a good example, don't explain how it doesn't fit, just remove it.
arromdee: This is inevitable because Guide Dang It! is really a subjective trope despite not looking like one. Something can have a solution, yet other people might not be able to figure it out without a guide.
The alternatives are:
I thought the definition of Guide Dang It! was "puzzle with absolutely no in-game hints, none, zero, nada" and, thusly, even one iota of a clue in the game disqualified an example.
So, uh, basically I thought we were doing #2 from the very beginning.
Well, the first paragraph says:
a Guide Dang It is any part of a video game in which that correct action or set of actions is so difficult to figure out from the game's own clues that, effectively, the only way to know what to do (aside from spending countless hours of trying every remote possibility until something happens) is via a Strategy Guide or an online Walkthrough
So difficult to figure out from the clues implies that there are clues, just not clues that are very useful.
Maybe it would cut down on the page's subjectiveness if the hints being in the game is enough to disqualify an example? We already have tropes like Moon Logic Puzzle for "things that are techincally possible to figure out but good luck hitting upon it without help"
Yea, we have other tropes for oblique clues, this is when there is no logical way for someone to have solved something except for a)brute forcing (trying everything until something works), or b)using a guide.
There's also the question of whether everything you can't figure out counts or just things that are required to advance. For instance, in Castlevania II you have to kneel with the red crystal at the cliff to even finish the game, whereas you can skip the silver knife entirely without any problems. In game clues are useless for either case though. I think there's a qualitative difference between stuff that's meant to be hidden and just lousy puzzles/mechanics that are unfathomable but necessary to win. We might as well list every secret area in Doom otherwise.
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