Discussion Characters / PokemonIChooseYou

Pokémon I Choose You Movie and Everyone's Story are stated to be at best, an Alternate Continuity AKA Canon Discontinuity to the main anime.

It's a retelling of the premise, but to say they belong to the same continuity is laughable. Ash of the main series never wore that outfit at any point in the show because the movie doesn't take place in the same continuity. It's a different story and universe altogether. A reimagining if you will.

One thing remains true. That outfit is a hybrid of various clothing that Ash wore through out his adventures, condensed into one original outfit. It'll remind people of certain aspects of Ash's previous outfits as stated above. Thus, it's noteworthy to put in, even if you find a better trope to describe it.

You not understood, i am not arguing that the Ash of the main anime series is the same that the Ash of the two latest movies. I am arguing that as the Ash of the main series is the same, the Ash of the two latest movies is not a combination of two or more characters(clothes are not characters).

In the same regard, Batman of the Animated Series is an amalgam of Batman from different points of the comic book, from the 40s to the 60s to th 70s and many more. Technically, it's all the same continuity, but people treat Batman in different eras as different incarnations.

Perhaps the better trope is Adaptational Distillation if this bothers you. It's a bit hard finding the right tropes to very noticeable details.

Just looked at the Composite Character's page, and there's this section regarding your issue:

This can sometimes get complicated, as the removed character may have his or her personality split up among the remaining characters (Deadpan Snarker given to character A, TV Genius attributes given to character B), or it is something as simple as someone actually having the removed character's appearance and personality but given a different name. In some extreme cases with certain stories that have regular adaptations every few years, an Era-Specific Personality gives them the opportunity to fuse specific versions of the SAME character in different adaptations, making someone a composite character of him- or herself.

Oh, and Ash Ketchum is on the Era-Specific Personality:

• Ash Ketchum from Pokémon has gradually changed his personality with each saga, though his heroic nature, fearlessness, and love for Pokémon remain constant. In Indigo, he was more brash and temperamental, with an impulsive streak, and frequently blew off actual training. By the end of the Orange Islands, the tendency to blow off training completely disappeared. In Johto, he greatly enjoyed training and while his impulsive, brash temperament remained, it was much less so than in Indigo. In addition, throughout the Original Series, he displayed a tendency to be a Deadpan Snarker. The Advanced Generation Ash Ketchum was much calmer and more mature, serving as an experienced mentor to May, though his stubborn streak remained. The Diamond & Pearl series Ash was very mature and experienced just as he had been in the previous saga, but also had the tendency to display angst, partly due to his rivalry with Paul, a cold and borderline abusive trainer. In both of these generations, Ash displayed great tactical ability and learned from his mistakes, though he could still be stubborn on occasion. Best Wishes Ash seemed to have a snapback to his Original Series personality, with stubbornness, immaturity, and impulsiveness, though admittedly not quite to the extent of the Original Series and thankfully it was toned down over the course of the saga. XY Ash was nearly infallible, once again, and moreso than in any other saga, serving as the wise, experienced mentor to his traveling companions, who, along with a few rivals, all idolized him. While he still retained all of his enthusiasm, he was still very calm, mature, and capable of planning ahead at times, while retaining his strength of thinking on his feet. SM Ash is zanier than XY Ash, possibly the most since the original Ash, though he retains competence of XY Ash.

The reason why I questioned this in the "Is this an example" thread was exactly to know if this is a valid reasoning for cases where a character is drawing elements from only one continuity, instead of elements from more than one continuity, as my wording on the question(" Considering that all the main anime series belong to the same continuity, is this an actual example? ") shows.

The thing about Pokémon anime is that's like a comic book series. Technically, Batman of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and early 80s are the same Batman (aka Batman of Earth One). Same thing with the Joker, who goes from a harmless harlequin of the 60s to an Ax-Crazy psychopath of 70s despite being the same Joker of Earth One. But each decade has a very different interpretation of Batman that it's hard to believe they are the same guy. And from what I've understand, the Pokémon anime series follows a similar format. Technically the same continuity, but each series has a different tone from the other and there were many retcons that happened within the series (see Mewtwo). This becomes prevalent in newer series starting with Best Wishes. And the new art style of Sun and Moon further supports the notion of Era-Specific Personality.

Era-Specific Personality is in many ways the halfway character point between one ongoing storyline and multiple continuities. Technically, they may be the same character but their personalities are easily distinguishable from one series to the other.

Hypothetically, a director can make a new Ash Ketchum based off the original, rookie Ash Ketchum from the Indigo League, but also incorporate a few traits from his later depictions earlier such as his aura abilities in DP or his more mature personality from XY. Now that could either be Adaptational Distillation or Composite Character depending on how you look at it. I will restate it again, the page of Composite Character itself states that in extreme cases, it is possible for a character to be a Composite Character of themselves due to Era-Specific Personality or frequent reboots of the same story.

Well, I remember that there was a thread where, at a certain point, a mod mentioned that characters of different continuities count as different characters (I did not find the thread/posts in question). The reason why I asked this in the "is this an example?" thread was to make sure that the same logic is valid in the case of the same character in the same continuity. By the way, considering that the logic behind the transition of Ash's "rookie" original personality to the more mature personality of the Advance era was, quite glaringly, because he was a experienced trainer now, not because they reinterpreted his past past personality, do you think that a character merely maturing or becoming more experienced is sufficient to qualify as part of a Composite Character? And, about the Aura powers, is a character using abilities that they were shown as having in earlier seasons sufficient to qualify as part of a Composite Character?

Prior to Best Wishes, it was hard to argue that Ash Ketchum had an Era-Specific Personality due to the fact that AG and DP are the natural progression of where Ash started in OS. It wasn't until BW that Era-Specific Personality started to become probable as it was a Reset Button for Ash, no doubt to be more closer to his original personality. Making the same rookie mistakes or no longer being a mentor, that kind of stuff. XY and SM offer the best contrast, in my opinion. Art-style aside, it is quite that SM Ash is more like a 10 year old schoolboy who happens to be good at battles whereas XY Ash is more like a traveling teen ace trainer akin to say Naruto and Goku. Then consider the fact that the producers intend to have Pokémon continue on forever with Ash and Pikachu as the only consistent stars, as well as the fact that continuity is not a big priority in Japan as it is the US. There were even reports of quotes from the Japanese press releases that state somewhere along the lines that SM Ash is a different Ash. Of course, that is not true with the return of Brock and Misty but the statements suggest that Ash can and will be portrayed differently throughout each series depending on the writer. This is akin to superhero comics like Spider Man, who is interpreted differently each new show runner throughout his long history since the 60s.

The difference between the characterizations of DP and BW is not more extreme than the difference between the characterization of his Advance and Original Series selfs. And, considering the first two paragraphs from the description of Composite Character, the only way that I can think of that different characterizations qualify as parts of a Composite Character is if different characterizations are enough to qualify as different characters or individuals.

Best Wishes is a noticeable regression of Ash's character rather than progression, making the same dumb rookie mistakes that would have been reserved for a newbie trainer like May or Dawn. Then there's the jarring transition from BW to XY regarding his character. XY Ash is far more competent in battle than BW Ash and there's no real justification as to why other than fan inference. It has been noted by many people here and elsewhere on the forums. It's also not helped by the fact there is no smooth transition between DP and BW. Previous series like OS-AG and AG-DP had Ash transitioning from one region to the next.

Then you have a quote from Mima Masafumi, the Sound Director of Pokémon Anime, saying:

I'm trying many different challenges (That will be surprise until watched ♬). I'll just introduce one thing. This photo mail is the front cover of Pocket Monster Sun & Moon for this time. Yes! every time, a screen shot that leaves an impression is decorated on the front cover. This is not continuation of Pocket Monster XY&Z, a completely new Satoshi and Pikachu

And that's not getting to Team Rocket's portrayal in BW. Even if you can argue that Ash (BW) is a natural progression of Ash (DP), BW Team Rocket doesn't have that same excuse since many people wonder how all of a sudden did Team Rocket get so serious and competent so quickly. No blast offs or comedic quirks. It's something you'll find in a long running comic book series in Marvel and DC. Something a writer would experiment on with ease due to loose continuity. Prior to BW, it was very easy to see Team Rocket (OS-DP) to be exactly the same characters.

Ironically, the characterization of Ash and Team Rocket in BW is when the notion of Era-Specific Personality started settling into the fandom's mindset. And XY and SM only strengthened that notion given the different premise for each series.

Regression or progression, "natural" or not, the Ash in BW is as close to a different Ash to the Ash in DP as the Ash of Advance series is a different Ash to the Ash of the original series.

My argument is not that this is not an example to Era-Specific Personality. My argument is that the trope needs two or more characters according to the first two paragraphs, and that the only way for Ash to qualify as two different characters in the main series is if different characterizations do qualify as different characters - and in this case, different characterizations will qualify as different characters even if the reasons for the change were justified in the story.

So are you suggesting that AG Ash and OS Ash are two different characters then?

No, I think that both the AG series Ash and the OS series Ash are the same character, and both the Ash in DP and the Ash in BW are the same character. I think that different characterizations do not qualify as different characters - my argument was against the Ash of the recent movies being an example of Composite Character.

I believe that BW Ash and SM Ash are different enough to reconsider that stance. There's no natural character arc as to why he acts the way he does (and to an extent, XY Ash also counts considering he came after BW Ash). And quite frankly, it reminds me of how comic book writers would handle long-running characters like Batman and Superman. Theoretically, it is possible explain why Batman went from grim and gritty to fun and campy over the decades, as done in Justice League: The New Frontier. But if the characterization is so distinct that many fans can easily distinguish the personalities and characteristics, I think it counts as different characters.

In fact, there has been an attempt to reorganize Ash's character tropes into different eras due to this inevitable issue.

Regardless, that outfit is a composite of all of Ash's outfits (or at least most of them). That is noteworthy and needs to be incorporated somehow.

Also, I notice that the Composite Character features a combination of G1 Prowl and Bumblebee into Michael Bay Movie Bumblebee. Character-wise, I see nothing of Prowl's personality in Movie Bumblebee (who is just G1 Bumblebee except mute) but I do see Prowl's model design influence. But that's the full extent of it. So I really don't buy the argument that clothes aren't character since they are part of Ash's design AND they evoke what kind of personality we are expecting from Ash (Alola Ash's outfit is fun and casual; Kalos Ash's outfit is calm and cool; Sinnoh Ash's outfit is dark and more serious looking, etc.) .

First - If someone believes that after some level of characterization change, this character becomes another character, the level necessary to qualify as a different character would be subjective.

Second - Yes, the clothes are part of his design, but he is only one character (in contrast to Prowl and Bumblebee). Think about characters from series with Unlimited Wardrobe (something that is not the case in Pokemon, but is good for illustration purposes). Do you believe that if in an adaptation the clothes of a character used were a mix of two or more wardrobe pieces that they used in different episodes, the character would qualify for Composite Character in this adaptation?

A character with Unlimited Wardrobe is bond to have different designs (and don't forget, Ash is also depicted in different art styles as well). For a new artist or character designer looking at these designs, they would obviously pick and choose aspects from each different wardrobe as much as they like. It's kinda like Ganondorf from the Zelda series. Technically, Ganondorf is the same person in nearly every Zelda games but he has different looks, motives and attacks depending on what game we are talking about. When Hyrule Warriors came, they combine all of these different aspects from across the timeline to make one ultimate Ganondorf even though it's a combination of himself from across the timeline.

What makes Ash Ketchum unique is that he has no evergreen design. As of SM, he has a total of six different designs in the main series. They are not temporary outfits he would wear once an episode; they are the status quo design. And unlike Team Rocket, Pikachu, and Professor Oak, he always changes from region to region. SM Ash, for example, has no jacket or gloves, a stark contrast to his previous outfits. DP Ash's jacket doesn't feature a lot of blue like his other outfits.

Protagonists like Red from Pocket Monsters Manga (the one with the rude Clefairy) and Mario often stick to one outfit for the rest of the franchise to give a general sense of what they are supposed to wear. Thus it is impossible for them to be Composite Character of themselves since there is a consistent wardrobe for these character. Ash's outfits are radically different from one another. When he wears a particular outfit, people know which series he is from.

Thus it becomes noticeable if his outfits are combined into one in an alternate continuity like these movies. That is noteworthy. And as far as I can tell, there is no trope for Composite Wardrobe. If you know any trope that fits the description, tell me. Otherwise, Composite Character is the closest I could find.

I guess that no trope that fits exists. And being a trope/part of the description of a trope example is necessary for it be worthy of being in a trope list, interesting or not. For another example I noticed some time ago that involves merging/demerging of something outside characters, I noticed that the series had created an entire new city to include the Casino in Kanto (in the first episode with the Jigglypuff) instead of including it in Celadon. Decomposite Character is the most similar trope I found but it clearly does not fit, neither does exist any trope named Decomposite Location. That is something interesting, but I am not sure if there is a trope that fits.