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- Characters.Monster Hunter Fifth Generation Monsters
- Characters.Monster Hunter Fifth Generation Monsters World (for monsters introduced in World and Iceborne)
- Characters.Monster Hunter Fifth Generation Monsters Rise (for monsters introduced in Rise)
Here:
- Sandbox.Monster Hunter Fifth Generation Monsters World
- Sandbox.Monster Hunter Fifth Generation Monsters Rise
The "World & Iceborne" page is still admittedly massive, so a bit of trimming will be necessary.
Edited by AnoBakaDesu "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Done. Indexing now.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
This SNK Boss entry has attracted attention in the "is this an example?" thread:
- SNK Boss: Behemoth functions less like a creature and more like a raid boss, and not approaching it like one is almost guaranteed to end in failure. Its damage is through the roof compared to any other monster, its attack range is utterly massive, it will actively begin healing if at least one player isn't fighting it, and it possesses the only guaranteed One-Hit KO move in the franchise. and that's just Normal Behemoth. Extreme Behemoth takes the already ludicrous difficulty level and ratchets it up even higher. Faster casting times, Defense Down on its Meteors, Arch-Tempered Flash Pod immunity, multiple Ecliptic Meteor castings (the final phase alone has three to deal with) that only give a single Comet for cover, and the second-largest health pool in the base game, all wrapped up in an insanely tight 25 minute fight. Oh, and did we mention that its third phase is a DPS check? Fail to do enough damage in five minutes, and Behemoth will cast Ecliptic Meteor without any Comets. And if your team somehow manages to survive being carted? It'll keep doing this until its health for the phase has been depleted. Many solo players and Time Attack groups wrote Extreme Behemoth off as impossible, and even those who succeeded often did so with only seconds to spare.
I once deleted it because SNK Boss is for fights that break the Competitive Balance, and there's no such thing as Competitive Balance in a PvE game like Monster Hunter. Vsquared_42 has vehemently readded it, and now is doing the same with dragonfire5000.
Vsquared_42 seems to have forgotten the last paragraph:
While this trope primarily applies to fighting games, it can also apply to non-fighting games, provided they are similarly competitive and have similar ways of ensuring Competitive Balance. A Racing game, for example, may have a champion with an absurdly tricked out car and a knowledge of the track that combine to give it an advantage no mater which vehicle/racer you choose. If a game is non-competitive, such as platformers, RPG's, etc., bosses are not considered SNK bosses no matter how unfair they are. There are other tropes for that.
As it stands, Extreme Behemoth is not an example because it's still a monster and is in no way comparable to the Player Character.
Edited by AnoBakaDesu "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, I would say Monster Hunter: World doesn't really fall into the "competitive game" category needed for SNK Boss. In that case, the Behemoth isn't an SNK Boss; it's just a monster that's a tad harder than the others.
Okay, since I'm involved in this, I'll put my two cents in here. I would argue that World IS competitive for two reasons. First, the devs have rebalanced several weapons over the games lifetime already specifically to buff weapons that were lagging behind or nerf weapons that were abused. Why bother changing them if not to enforce balance? Secondly, the Time Attack community that exists around Monster Hunter IS competitive, and to say that it's not is like saying that speed-running isn't competitive.
Furthermore and as I pointed out when I added the entry back in, the "Other Games" page for the SNK Boss page itself is filled with single player and RPG game entries, including entries from previous Monster Hunter titles. So if the argument for removing the entry from Behemoth is that it can't qualify solely due to being from an RPG, you may as well delete half of the "Other Games" page along with it. I tried to be as through as possible with the entry and why I feel it qualifies, but if it is going to cause problems I won't add it back again.
We probably will need to majorly clean up the Other Games page, because I'm definitely seeing misuse there.
I'd like to point out that the competitiveness you're bringing up is limited to certain fan communities and not something intended by the creators from the start. Monster Hunter is about players working together to fight monsters, and any competition on how fast hunts go is solely up to individual players. It's not like games in the fighting game genre, which are intended to be competitive from the start.
I do not think Monster Hunter qualifies as the sort of game that can have an SNK Boss, especially since the entry for Extreme Behemoth reads like "That One Boss but worse," which is probably the most common sort of misuse for SNK Boss.
Finally, as a reminder, the next time someone deletes an entry that you wrote, re-adding it means you're edit-warring, which can get you suspended. Remember to take it up to discussion like we're doing now.
If it were a real SNK Boss, I'd be expecting something that plays with the same mechanics as the Player Character, but this isn't the case here. Behemoth is a monster fight, and in no way puts a semblance of fairness or Competitive Balance in the fight. Also, the argument that Monster Hunter is competitive, as well as Vsquared's main gripe, hinges on speedrunning, which is a Self-Imposed Challenge and not representative of the actual playerbase at large.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Agreed with the above. So is there anyone else here opposed to getting rid of the SNK Boss entry?
Now I think about it, isn't it just difficulty born of being a Mechanically Unusual Fighter?
From my understanding, you're right; its difficulty pretty much is from a combination of it hitting really hard and having mechanics meant to emulate an MMO raid boss. It already has an entry in the That One Boss that covers those points, and That One Boss is a better fit than SNK Boss.
So does anyone else have any opinions on whether the Behemoth's SNK Boss entry should be removed on grounds of misuse?
At the risk of necro-ing this thread, The Moonlad re-added the entry under Fake Difficulty not long after it was deleted from SNK Boss.
Why is it so damn hard to understand that objective troping requires you to not write a long, whiny essay about what you find "unfair" about the boss fight? You already have That One Boss, where it belongs. Now it qualifies even less as Fake Difficulty, because Extreme Behemoth doesn't fall under any of the five sub-categories. The mechanics of the fight have been significantly upped to provide a greater challenge, but most of them are still under the player's control.
If you're going to be adamant about adding back the entry, axe the last irrelevant sentence about speedrunners. This is not Troper Tales territory.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Giving it ten days. If there is no further discussion, I'll delete the entry and any more re-adding will be dealt with not here, but in Ask The Tropers.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
With the complete lack of objection, this discussion ends here. Deleting the entry with no chance of salvaging.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
The page is starting to lag, and the character count is now past 250,000. Any suggestions for a split? I'm thinking:
But that would be a temporary solution if we don't get many more Elder Dragons in Rise and other Gen 5 games.
Edited by AnoBakaDesu "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain Hide / Show Replies