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Wanderhome The Joke-Master Since: Apr, 2009
The Joke-Master
Mar 7th 2011 at 5:31:43 PM •••

"You crossed the line. *K.O.*"

Mr. Death, this got settled back in January. C Mo As are subjective. Tropers can put what they want on those pages. Just because you didn't like the same parts of the movie does not mean it needs to be deleted.

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MrDeath Since: Aug, 2009
Mar 8th 2011 at 7:43:52 AM •••

As I've said, "Subjective" does not, and should not, mean "anything goes." I'm clearly not the only one who thinks so, in case you missed the post directly above this, or the previous discussion in Ask The Tropers on the subject.

You're calling a man punching out a crippled, unarmed, entirely defenseless man a CMOA, on what basis? That the other man sided with the aliens whose world the humans have invaded?

The only way it qualifies as "awesome," is that you refuse to look at the Na'vi as anything other than "animalistic savages."

Would you call Tarkin blowing up Alderaan a CMOA on the basis of "Yeah, show those dirty rebels what for!" Or the German sniper in Enemy at the Gates whose name escapes me hanging a child a CMOA because the kid snitched on him? Or perhaps you'd like to give Doomsday a CMOA for murdering a little girl cuz she should've known better than to cry in his presence?

Edited by MrDeath
Wanderhome Since: Apr, 2009
Mar 8th 2011 at 9:07:29 AM •••

It qualifies as awesome because Sully got no other comeuppance throughout the rest of the film, despite the fact that he lied to both the RDA and the Na'vi, betrayed his employers and humanity, and caused countless deaths on both sides that could easily have been avoided, all so he could take control of the native tribes and get laid.

It's not awesome because it was a big accomplishment for Quaritch, it's awesome because it's the only deviation from Sully pulling a complete Karma Houdini.

MrDeath Since: Aug, 2009
Mar 8th 2011 at 9:12:18 AM •••

Saying it was all so he could take control of the tribes and "get laid," completely misrepresents his motivations, deliberately so to make him look like the bad guy.

The RDA gave him three months—apparently, that's how much time it took him to become a true member of the tribe. It's literally the next day after that that the bulldozers go in and things go to hell. The Na'vi wouldn't have listened to him at all before then, so he didn't have time to negotiate anything.

What happened happened because the RDA was using him, and was only really concerned with getting their bottom line faster; they didn't care whether that meant him negotiating or him giving them the information about Hometree's structure, whichever would get things done faster, with good and bad PR being an afterthought.

Wanderhome Since: Apr, 2009
Mar 8th 2011 at 9:27:02 AM •••

Unless you can read the mind of a fictional character, the only things to indicate that his motivations were anything other than purely selfish are his conversations with the Na'vi and the scientists. You know, the people whose support he needed to steal the Avatar body and take his position of power in the tribe.

MrDeath Since: Aug, 2009
Mar 8th 2011 at 9:30:34 AM •••

Show me anything in the movie that indicates that his motivations are just to "get laid" and "take his position of power in the tribe."

There's something called, you know, love, like how he tells Neytiri he loves her. Saying he just did it to "get laid," is, again, willfully ignoring what the movie comes out and tells you directly just so you can try and paint Sully as a bad guy.

As for his "position of power"? Taming the big dragon wasn't his motivation, it was his means. His motivation at that point was to stop Quaritch from, you know, murdering even more people and bombing the Na'vi's equivalent to the Vatican. And you'll note that he doesn't even try to take the tribe's leadership position from Tsu'tey—the latter is still wearing the ceremonial Chief stuff, and Sully only seems to take his place after he dies.

If you're going to continue willfully ignoring the actual context of the movie and keep going on about how Jake only wanted power and to "get laid," I think we're done here.

Edited by MrDeath
Wanderhome Since: Apr, 2009
Mar 8th 2011 at 11:11:48 AM •••

Having an alternate character interpretation based entirely on the events of the movie is not "ignoring the actual context of the movie." Dismissing anyone else's interpretation of the movie in favor of taking the character's dialogue as the gospel truth to their motivations, on the other hand, is.

MrDeath Since: Aug, 2009
Mar 8th 2011 at 11:36:30 AM •••

You don't have Alternate Character Interpretation, you've got Ron the Death Eater sauted in Misaimed Fandom, stuffed with a real life case of Fantastic Racism, if your previous edit reasons are any indication, and seasoned with Unfortunate Implications.

ACI, like "subjective," doesn't mean that anything goes or that all of them are valid, so please stop trying to use it as a blanket excuse to ignore whatever you want and dismiss my arguments.

The character's dialogue and actions are the "actual context of the movie," and there's nothing in the movie indicating that Sully is lying or an unreliable manipulator that you're trying to paint him as.

Your "interpretation," requires utterly rejecting what actually is said and done in the movie in favor of your own warped idea of what's going on.

In my previous post, I asked you to show me anything in the movie that indicates his motivations are as you say there are (to "get laid" and take power). If your "interpretation" is based "entirely on the events of the movie," then go ahead and show me what you're basing it on—and I mean actual things that he says and does in the actual film, not the "he wanted to have sex with an animal" crap you put as an edit reason earlier.

129.237.225.173 Since: Dec, 1969
Apr 4th 2011 at 10:03:09 PM •••

I am disappoint sir. I believe you may be beginning to question the will of the Emprah. Death to the Alien, the Mutant, the Traitor. Jake Sully is all these things.

diesector21 diesector21 Since: Dec, 2009
diesector21
Feb 15th 2011 at 7:41:16 PM •••

"You crossed the line." *KO*

This moment does not qualify 'awesome' in any shape or form. There is no spectacle, no instance of "HOLY SHIT!" from the audiences, and it does not inspire awe. It doesn't matter what you think about which side is the 'good' side. It simply isn't awesome whatsoever.

If you assume the 'non-alternative' interpretation on who's right or wrong (ie. RDA = morally wrong), here's a comparison: calling the moment where Neytiri puts two arrows through Quaritch's chest to save Jake's avatar to be 'awesome'. Is it a riveting moment? Yes. Is it also awe-inspiring? No. At most, the only thing that's 'awesome' of that scene is Neytiri's marksmanship, and that's somewhat of a stretch.

Quaritch punching Jake in the face is not awesome. Period.

Edited by diesector21
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