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They were already banned over two years ago for word cruft issues, for what it's worth.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Explains the hostility.
Just want to know if it’s kosher for me to make another edit on the example, since it does need cleaning up.
Bumping again.
Update: his hostility has now extended to P Ms.
He responded to my automated rudeness PM with “are you a mod or admin”, and when I asked if he thought only they were allowed to critique an edit, he changed the subject and said he wanted to ask a mod for help on a different issue.
He then claimed that I was “throwing stones from a glass house” when I edited his post for Word Cruft, and when I responded by saying that, no, his edit just had issues, he sent me another message claiming that I edited a post that “everyone agreed with” (not sure where he got that from), that because I am not a mod I should not be sending automated messages (confirming what I asked earlier) and that what he did isn’t an edit war because that’s only when you revert three times.
Are they still suspended? Or were they let loose recently?
^ These are from recent edits, so I'm assuming they're unsuspended unless it's just happened again because of all this.
~Nubian Satyress, have you given them a link to this thread? We've had one mod response already and getting them in here should, one way or another, get things rolling.
I just sent one, and it’ll be interesting to see if they come, since they have repeatedly told me that discussing this is pointless.
Edited by NubianSatyress
They may be a Wikipedia editor- sounds like they think we also follow the "three revert rule"; and also, their general attitude about editing is at odds with how things work here.
Hopefully they stop by, but it seems doubtful.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
If they don't, then that may be a sign they need another tap on the shoulder.
Hello. First of all my suspension ended 3 years ago. Back when I first joined.
I'd like to apologize to Satyress if I came off as rude. I fixed what I believed to be word cruft. His comment and P Ms have also been rude.
He chose not to initiate an edit war by reverting a third time and instead spoke in P Ms. What I meant by "Everyone agreed on it" was that the section we we’re concerned about has been that way for over a year. It was created by one user and revised by multiple users over the time including me.
I also asked if he was a mod because his first message was scripted and in the wrong tense, so I thought he was using some automated messaging system. I was never even going to discuss this because of how much of a bleeding heart he came off as. I don’t know where or how he got the idea I believed only moderators were allowed to criticize people as I never said that.
To boot, he has not provided any worthwhile discussion of solution in P Ms which I why I told him the whole thing was pointless. I’m willing to discuss properly here. With everyone.
Edited by CaptainJJC
^ The message seemed scripted because there are pre-written notifiers to send editors, which any other editor can and are encouraged to use if they catch someone making an editing mistake. It has nothing to do with being a mod, but just using the tools we're given.
Anyway, you did edit war over it. We don't go by three-reverts here; we just go by the third edit period (Add-Delete-Add, or Delete-Add-Delete).
Edited by WarJay77 Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Last I read it was always the third edit that’s considered an edit war. There have only been two edits. When did this change?
Edited by CaptainJJC
^ You made changes to the original post. NS removed those changes. You put the changes back and reverted their edit. That was the third edit.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
How long-standing is this first edit supposed to be then. I remember that being there for a while?
As I said in the opening post: Your first edit was on Feb 1st. I made mine the same day. You reverted it on Feb 22nd. And in your revert reason, you flat out acknowledge that I was removing Word Cruft within YOUR changes.
BTW, in P Ms, you said: “ Leave the page as is or explain WHY you want it the way you want it and not the way it’s been for a year. ”
That isn’t how editing works. If someone sees a way to improve an example or change it for other valid reasons, then they are free to do so no matter how long it’s been the way it was. In this case, YOU were the one who made the initial changes, though.
And I very much explained the reasons for my changes: it was Word Cruft. That has to go. I shouldn’t need to explain it over and over again.
Edited by NubianSatyress
I acknowledged removing word cruft form an edit that claimed to be fixing word cruft. Such as "who is still a child mentally and physically" (Where before it was just "who’s not even matured") As well as removing troper talk like Straw Hypocrite in place of a more blunt "Hypocritcal" (A link to Lethally Stupid was right before this). As far as I know excessive use of Trope title links isn't a good look.
Now do you finally want to tell me what you want or are you going to keep going on about how much of an asshole I am?
Edited by CaptainJJC
I say comment the example out and we'll discuss how to re-write it here so that there's no word-cruft at all, and then when we all agree that it's good, we repost it.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Here’s how I wrote it
- Motoyasu comes off as an overall jerk who’s Distracted by the Sexy, and is clearly unaware of the type of person Malty is... which is actually a spot on observation, but one must consider the following: He does not know Malty and the King are lying about Naofumi, or that the lie was constructed so he and the other heroes would believe Naofumi to be a rapist. He thus believes any punishment or scorn Naofumi receives is well-deserved. The main issue is that his behavior easily crosses into Lethally Stupid and hypocritical territory. For one he displays the same level of sexual entitlement to Filo, who’s not even matured, as he believes Naofumi did to Myne. And when Itsuki and Ren, also judging Naofumi as a predator, began to understand the lie and conspiracy against Naofumi and the royal family, Motoyasu still considered Naofumi an enemy up until long after Myne Is forced to confess under a magic slave brand. All of this turns Motoyasu from an idiot who will believe anything a pretty woman tells him into an idiot who refuses to think critically.
How Nubian wrote it
- Motoyasu comes off as an overall jerk who’s Distracted by the Sexy, and is clearly not aware of the type of person Malty is, nor that Malty and the King are lying about Naofumi, or that the lie was constructed so he and the other heroes would believe Naofumi to be a rapist. He thus believes any punishment or scorn Naofumi receives is well-deserved. The main issue is that his behavior easily crosses into Lethally Stupid and Straw Hypocrite territory. For one he LITERALLY tries to sexually enslave Filo, who is still a child mentally and physically, as he believes Naofumi did to Myne. And when Itsuki and Ren, also judging Naofumi as a predator, began to understand the lie and conspiracy against Naofumi and the royal family, Motoyasu still considered Naofumi an enemy up until long after Myne Is forced to confess under a magic slave brand. All of this turns Motoyasu from an idiot who will believe anything a pretty woman tells him into an idiot who refuses to think critically, or even worse, to the worst kind of idiot who is so incompetent at being a hero that he's the most dangerous type of villain.
Yeah... Sorry, but both cases are Word Cruft.
Guess it’s a year overdo for a squeeze then. I’m gonna catch up tomorrow then
“ Now do you finally want to tell me what you want or are you going to keep going on about how much of an asshole I am?”
“ acknowledged removing word cruft form an edit that claimed to be fixing word cruft. “
Except that wasn’t what you did. You removing my edit to restore your Word Cruft wholesale didn’t solve the problem like you seem to be convinced it did. If you think both are Word Cruft, fine...but that doesn’t excuse what you did.
Maybe this could have all been avoided if you had, like, just made a better edit instead of restoring yours with a snarky edit comment. I also never called you an asshole. I said you were being hostile, and thus far you’ve demonstrated that to be 100% accurate.
So yeah, you could also do to lay off the snark and hostility here as well. This started because you took someone criticizing your edit like a personal attack, and you continue to retaliate.
Edited by NubianSatyress
1. I wasn't the one who declared both casss word cruft.
2. You're taking the existence of my edit as an attack. You were the one who came with an attitude and no appeal in P Ms, which is how personal appeals are supposed to work. How else would you react to someone stuffing words in your mouth and refusing to explain what he wanted out of a page?
3. We have decided both cases are word cruft and we are going to fix them. Not argue which one is better. Here's what I suggest to improve it, taking the best of both edits.
- Motoyasu comes off as an overall jerk who’s preoccupied with Malty's beauty. For one he's not aware of the type of person Malty is, nor that she and the King are lying about Naofumi. The fact is the lie was constructed so he and the other heroes would believe Naofumi to be a rapist. He thus believes any punishment or scorn Naofumi receives is well-deserved. The main issue is that his behavior easily crosses into idiotic and hypocritical territory. For one he LITERALLY tries to sexually enslave Filo, who is still a child, as he believes Naofumi did to Myne. And when Itsuki and Ren, also judging Naofumi as a predator, understand the lie and conspiracy against Naofumi and the royal family, Motoyasu still considered him an enemy until long after Myne Is forced to confess under a magic slave brand. All of this turns Motoyasu from an idiot who will believe anything a pretty woman tells him into an idiot who refuses to think critically.
Point 1 is not relevant. Point 2, is again, not how edits work. I sent you the automated rudeness message because your message was rude and also edit warring. You thus got upset over it.
As for the example, it is still heavy with Word Cruft. As well as some parts in which the wording is wrong. So here is my proposal.
- Motoyasu’s preoccupation with Malty's beauty makes him blind to the type of person she really is, and that she and the King are liars. Their deception was constructed so he and the other heroes would believe Naofumi to be a rapist; he thus believes any punishment or scorn Naofumi receives is well-deserved. But Motoyasu’s own behavior easily crosses into idiotic and hypocritical territory. For one, he tries to sexually enslave Filo, who is still a child, after condemning Naofumi for both sexual assault and slavery. While Itsuki and Ren slowly unveil the lie and conspiracy against Naofumi and the royal family, Motoyasu still considered him an enemy until long after Myne Is forced to confess under a magic slave brand. All of this turns Motoyasu from an idiot who will believe anything a pretty woman tells him into an idiot who refuses to think critically.
Note: we can leave in the wiki words. I’m simply on mobile, which makes it hard to format text.
Edited by NubianSatyress
I'd strongly suggest the rest of this query simply work on the example content itself, and not who was rude first. All information about how notifiers work has been disclaimed, and the relevant parties are here.
That's a better idea. What kind of improvements do you suggest on the example?
Another revision btw. Not trying to compete if it appears that way.
Motoyasu’s preoccupation with Malty's beauty makes him blind to the type of person she really is, and that she and the King are liars. Their story was constructed so he and the other heroes would believe Naofumi to be a rapist; thus believing any punishment or scorn Naofumi receives is deserved. But Motoyasu's own behavior easily crosses into idiotic and hypocritical territory. For one, he tries to sexually enslave Filo, who is still a child, after condemning Naofumi for both sexual assault and slavery. While Itsuki and Ren unveil the lie and conspiracy against Naofumi and the royal family, Motoyasu still considered him an enemy until long after Myne Is forced to confess under a magic slave brand. All of this turns Motoyasu from an idiot who will believe anything a pretty woman tells him into an idiot who refuses to think critically.
Edited by CaptainJJC
On an unrelated note, Satyress, you use male pronouns?
No, I don’t.
Another unrelated issue. I had uploaded two video examples for Sethical but they glitched and I cant remove/reupload them. Where would I ask for an admin to help?
Edited by CaptainJJC
^ Query Bugs.
Please try and stay on topic, though.
The new version is less crufty for sure, but we need a little more consensus.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
^ Agreed. It’s not perfect to me, but I think it hits the relevant points and avoids verbosity.
What is it supposed to be an example of?
^^^^^ Okay, so the "he" pronouns used by CaptainJCC was his assumption, then. Thanks for explaining.
Edited by MichaelKatsuro
Okay, so the Alternative Character Interpretation is, what, "this character is an even bigger idiot than the story presents him as"?
Edited by Twiddler
^Apparently? I'm not familiar with the source material, but if it's redundant, then it should probably be removed altogether.
From what I gathered from the original example (it’s already been through a lot of revisions before landing here), the fan base often has discussions over Hanlon's Razor and how it applies regarding just how “well-meaning” Motoyasu is. On the one hand, he legitimately sees himself as a hero and does what he believes are heroic acts. He also fell for the same lies as everyone except the main protagonists, so some of his actions are understandably misguided.
But he is also EXCEPTIONALLY simple-minded, to the degree where it’s hard to tell whether it’s simple stupidity or willful ignorance. Or both. Further, it’s argued by the fans (and the story’s protagonist) that he invokes Grey’s Law and reaches a point where it doesn’t MATTER what his intentions are, because he is such a screwup that he’s literally a danger to other people and an obstacle to saving the world.
Edited by NubianSatyress
^ This is a much better writeup. Explains where opinions differ, and the different sides. I'd support replacing the current writeup with this (starting from "the fan base often").
ETA: You changed
The latter does not sound like Alternative Character Interpretation, it sounds like something else. This:
Nubian's new write up is a much quicker and effective version of the same message. Gonna wait out on everyone else though
...Am I blind? I'm not seeing the new write-up.
Seriously, please tell me what I should be looking at.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
^ Nubian’s last comment, three comments above yours.
^ That's what I thought, but it's not formatted like an example writeup, just an explanation of the situation.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
If this can't get decided before we hit 50 responses, this query is getting locked and you'll have to take it to the discussion page. I like keeping things in one spot if at all possible, so let's wrap this up, yeah?
^^ Yeah, I just meant that from “the fan base often” onward, it could be used as writeup as is, with only minimal formatting tweaks.
Edited by Twiddler
Based on feedback (and now that I'm finally on an actual keyboard instead of mobile), let me take another crack at the example:
- Alternative Character Interpretation: The fan base alternates on just how “well-meaning” Motoyasu is. On one hand, he legitimately sees himself as a hero and does what he believes are heroic acts. He falls for the same lies as everyone except the main protagonists, so some actions are just understandably misguided. But he is also EXCEPTIONALLY simple-minded, making it hard to tell if he's willing to believe lies from simple stupidity, willful ignorance, pure selfishness, or all three. In addition to believing anything a pretty face tells him, he is exceptionally arrogant and at one point even tries to sexually enslave a child (under the pretext of "rescuing" her) after condemning Naofumi for both rape and slavery. Further, it’s argued by some fans (and the story’s protagonist) that he invokes Grey's Law, whereas it doesn’t MATTER what his intentions are, because he is such a screwup that he’s a danger to other people and an obstacle to saving the world.
Pretty lengthy but zero word cruft. I think it’s good enough to add right now.
I cut down the wording a little
Yeah. As I said, It's good enough to add in. Waiting for a mod or more people to notice.
I'm just gonna add it, since you and I are the only two people who were really debating or have any experience with the work. Also, nombre said that 50 replies (and this is the 50th is our limit anyway).
As long as we both agree, I think we're good to go.
Looks good to me, I should say, though IDK the work and mostly joined the discussion to explain the notifier situation. :P
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I like it too, for what it's worth.
On February 1st, Tropers.Captain JJC made this edit
on The Rising of the Shield Hero, which I later edited for containing Word Cruft like “but one must consider the following”.
Twenty-one days later, he fully reverts my edits and reinstates his own saying (paraphrasing since I’m currently on mobile). “Guy who told me not to add word cruft added more of it”, making it clear that it was a retaliatory edit, as well as a post > edit > revert Edit War. I sent him an automated PM for rudeness.
I’m bringing this here because the edit in general really seems to be overly verbose and all over the place in getting to the point, but I don’t want to edit war further.