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It seems like the dispute is over whether applying pheromones is more similar to drugging someone or wearing perfume. In-game, do these pheromones *force* affected parties to have sex with the wearer, or do they just make the wearer seem more appealing? Trying to seduce someone who's celibate isn't rape (although it is shitty), so I think the specifics of the pheromones are the only relevant factor here.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
They are treated like the game's other drugs/chems (and are sold one chem vendor) while Diego's dialogue after the fact would seem to indicate that he wasn't in possession of his full faculties: ""I...I don't know what came over me. I just lost control and seduced her. But I am an honorable man. I will make her an honorable woman."
^ Given that context, especially the "I just lost control", that would read to me like he was not in control of his actions and therefore not consenting, so I would say the trope applies.
^ I agree, and to help make it clearer, that can be added as additional context.
Thinking about it more, another option would be to classify it as Double Standard: Rape, Sci-Fi instead. I don't think there is any disgreement about it being a shitty thing to do that the player is rewarded for helping with (the "double standard"), but since the effects of the queen ant pheromones aren't completely clear though are definitely "fantastic" in origin (look at the setting), that could be another option.
Yeah, this should qualify for both double standard tropes.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
^Agreed.
Keet cleanup
^^ I also agree.
Valdo
Seems like that is the way to go, then.
However, while this was being discussed, the same troper (@Luisdalas) deleted it once again
, entering Edit War territory.
For what it's worth, I was part of some discussion about the entry being readded a few years ago and the logs for the discussions I was a part of should be on the page's discussions tab. Similar conclusion was drawn based on Diego's "I don't know what came over me" dialogue.
Edited by Dirtyblue929
Thank you everyone, I've added it back with additional details on his non-consenting status and pointed to this discussion to hopefully avoid future problems.
Last note is the issue of Luisdalas edit warring. Also worth adding that they added a very barebones entry to Broken Base on the YMMV page specifically about the alleged "ambiguity" and "debate" over the issue after their second removal; given that it's pretty explicitly textually nonconsensual do I have the go to remove it?
I mean, based on the example's history it does seem controversial. Audience Reactions don't necessarily need to be "right"; fans being wrong doesn't nullify whether or not it's something people debate about.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Yeah, it's sparce, but it's otherwise fine there.
Deleting again was classic edit war territory, however, that part is true.
It's not controversial at all as far as I'm aware.
Broken Base is supposed to be a wide-spread, long, and virulent fan argument. I don't know if a disagreement on Tvtropes really counts
I don't know the fandom; I was just making an educated guess based on evidence.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I agree we should add a warning NOT to remove this example, or people wont stop adding and removing it.
Discord: Waido X 255#1372 If you cant contact me on TV Tropes do it here.
Recently, a valid example of Double Standard Rape: Female on Male was removed
from the Fallout 3 page. It involves a female character using mutated queen ant pheromones (which are explicitly called an aphrodisiac) to seduce a priest who has taken a vow of celebacy. If you provide her with the pheromones during the quest, the game gives you Good Karma, emphasizing the "double standard" part.
I added it back
with an explanation on how/why it fits the trope (I did not add it initially, so it's not an edit war), but out of curiousity, checked the page's history on that trope. It has been deleted
and added back
, deleted
and added back
, two other times.
As mentioned in my most recent add-back, I obviously feel that it is a valid example as a woman is using a chemical to impact the decision making of man with the explicit intent of getting him to break his vow of celebacy (the "rape" part), and then the game gives you Good Karma for helping her to do that (the "double standard" part).
I'd like to get some kind of consensus decision and add a link to that entry (commented out) explaining that it is valid and should stay to avoid future situations like this.