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Since the xxx's are a placeholder, I'd alphabetize the work under numerals

Macron's notes

bumping to get more thoughts on this

As Holic? The x's are custom titling as those little crosses, so maybe someone unfamiliar with the work wouldn't be confused by its placement among the H's.

If indeed the x's are placeholders for untypeable symbols, then it makes sense to alphabetize them under symbols.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me

I guess for those who don't know the work (most users), sorting with symbols is the easiest.

Before or after +Anima, though? (The "plus" in the title is pronounced, but one wouldn't know by looking.)

Edited by Tabs

One online tool sorts × before + apparently (both the multiplication sign and the punctuation mark), the other after. This is bothering.

Edited by Amonimus TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

The Manga and Fantasy Anime & Manga indices have + before ×, maybe because p(lus) goes before x.

Honestly, I would just sort it under X: I always interpreted the title of the manga as meant to represent an algebraic x unknown, for a full title of (thing)-holic. And the rule of thumb on this wiki has been that we don't sort according to custom titles: we're not even really supposed to pay attention to the ending of a word, so Fullmetal Alchemist comes before Full Metal Panic! even though a dictionary would sort them the other way. EDIT: Apparently the policy here has changed since the last time I looked, see below.

Edited by StarSword

I don't think this is quite correct, though. It's not untypeable symbols they represent, exactly. The X's are in fact meant to be the letter X. It's just that in this context, the letter X is used to show that you're supposed to insert something. Like how you might write a wedding vow template "Do you, xxx, take this xxx to have and to hold [etc.]" the same way.

In short, it is meant to be the actual letter x, though silent, like how the French H isn't pronounced but we still alphabetize French works with an H normally.

(At least this is what I've always been told.)

EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, Japanese Wikipedia uses the actual letter X.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro

Then I guess listing it with the x's would be the best course of action

Macron's notes

Except the current custom title turn them into "×××", that is multiplication signs, and not X. And How to Alphabetize Things is clear about it, "Alphabetize by custom titling rather than the database name of the trope."

Besides this would run counter to what's already done in all indices the work appear in. Let's keep it simple (and thus before numbers).

PS: Also, I think the order between symbols currently used is more of the order mathematical signs are usually put in: +, -, ×, ÷, =.

Edited by StFan

But if they are actually meant to be x's and not multiplication symbols, shouldn't they be indexed under X? Because it appears that the multiplication signs represent stylized x'es

Edited by MacronNotes Macron's notes

Yeah, that's the question. It's currently using multiplication symbols in the writing but it's meant to be read as the letter X. As in, when Japanese people use xxx in templates, like I mentioned earlier, they write the letter X three times, and not three multiplication symbols.

But yeah, the actual symbol we're using here at the site is a multiplication symbol; that's technically true.

So I guess the question is: Do we go by how it's meant to be read, or by how it's written?

Edited by MichaelKatsuro

In the interest of being consistent, i think most people would put it under X unless told not to. So it might get confusing if some pages alphabetized it under "symbol" if most newcomers would put it under X

Also, let's assume that the decision we end up making turns out to be a mistake.

In that case, putting the letter X as some weird symbol is a pretty big mistake, but it's a fairly small mistake to put a symbol meant to represent X under the letter X.

So are we settling on put it with the X's?

^I say yes.

Aye, say I.

Ok thank you all for the contribution. I'll also make a note on the holic discussion page for future reference.

I take note of the decision. I won't put this title on top of the alphabetical order any more.