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Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace
Taller than Zim
Dec 18th 2009 at 12:30:05 AM

I think knowing stuff about superheroes in general is less specific than knowing things about specific DC heroes. The basics (superheroes have secret identities, they fight crime etc.) that Watchmen requires is something that is pretty much universal knowledge in western society. The Cold War stuff is a bit more restrictive, but nowhere as specialized as the KC stuff.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Taelor Don't Forget To Smile from The Paths of Spite
Don't Forget To Smile
Dec 18th 2009 at 12:41:54 AM

When I read Watchmen, my only prior experience with comic books superheroes were Saturday morning cartoon adaptations and a couple of Spider-Man comics that I read when I was seven. I understood it just fine. I have not read Kingdom Come, and thus have no idea how it compares, accessibility-wise.

Regarding the idea that Rorschach was the only "moral" character in the story, well, that's blatantly untrue. Ozy believed that saving the world was "the right thing to do" and that anything done to further this goal was therefore also "the right thing to do," just as Rorschach thought that cleaning up the streets was "the right thing to do" and that anything done to further this goal was therefore also "the right thing to do."

edited 18th Dec '09 12:42:28 AM by Taelor

The Philosopher-King Paradox
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Dec 18th 2009 at 12:51:42 AM

"I think knowing stuff about superheroes in general is less specific than knowing things about specific DC heroes. The basics (superheroes have secret identities, they fight crime etc.) that Watchmen requires is something that is pretty much universal knowledge in western society. The Cold War stuff is a bit more restrictive, but nowhere as specialized as the KC stuff."

It's not the specifics, but the breath. That series takes a lot of tropes apart, and if you don't know a lot, you will get lost. Now most superhero stories can get one used to those tropes, but if you just need to watch one or two specific series, that is not "significantly less" than for KC.

I'm not arguing it's less to know. I'm calling on your claim it's a hell of a lot more to know than just somewhat more to know.

Plus your original claim was the knowledge required was far more narrow than even that.

edited 18th Dec '09 12:54:08 AM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace
Taller than Zim
Dec 18th 2009 at 12:57:31 AM

But the very breadth is precisley why Watchmen is more accessible: You can get these tropes from just about anywhere, and you don't need any kind of specific knowledge, while KC requires you to know (pretty much) specifically the DCU and specifically 90's comics.

EDIT: basically watchmen requires you to be familiar with superhero tropes (and to some degree Cold War tropes) Kingdom Come requires you to be familiar (if only in a shallow way) with specific works.

edited 18th Dec '09 1:01:40 AM by Arilou

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Dec 18th 2009 at 1:43:06 AM

It's still not the very narrow degree you are claiming.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
krrackknut Not here, look elsewhere from The empty Aether.
Not here, look elsewhere
Dec 18th 2009 at 2:14:38 AM

Okay, to divert the course of the derail just a little, who here has read Watchmen, Kingdom Come, AND Earth X? What did you think/feel?

edited 18th Dec '09 2:15:02 AM by krrackknut

An useless name, a forsaken connection.
Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace
Taller than Zim
Dec 18th 2009 at 2:16:21 AM

I've read them all (but not the sequels to Earth X)

I think Watchmen is in a class entirely of it's own. The others are fine stories, don't get me wrong, but Watchmen is on a different level entirely.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Respect the Red Right Hand
Dec 18th 2009 at 6:10:11 AM

All Kingdom Come takes is you know the basic premises of Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the anti-hero. Now, if you want to get all of the references, you need deeper knowledge. But everyone knows the basics you need by age 10, if you're living in the US and not under a rock.

Neccy60 Resident Oreo from Chicago, IL
Resident Oreo
Dec 18th 2009 at 12:15:17 PM

I've read Watchmen, Kingdom Come, and Earth X.

I enjoyed Earth X the most, with Watchmen a little behind and then Kingdom Come. I loved how much the Marvel Universe had changed in Earth X, and this was back when all I knew about it was from video games and Wikipedia. Absolutely awesome artwork too, not that it's amazing on it's own but it fits the great story and atmosphere perfectly. Watchmen was awesome too, a bit overrated (imo, of course) but very good nonetheless, also was cool picking up on all the Cold War stuff (I like history so yeah). Kingdom Come was cool, but a lot less coherent than either of the above two. The plot was very lacking in substance, even though the writing and art was great.

http://www.last.fm/user/BlueGhost60
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest
Dec 18th 2009 at 2:18:37 PM

Finished Kingdom Come today.

There is only one thing wrong with that book, and one thing only: Norman. McCay.

edited 18th Dec '09 2:18:54 PM by Wicked223

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest
Dec 18th 2009 at 7:27:45 PM

When I came home with a copy of Kingdom Come, my brother started badgering me for a comic for him to read. I told him I'd get him One More Day.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
krrackknut Not here, look elsewhere from The empty Aether.
Not here, look elsewhere
Dec 19th 2009 at 12:07:14 AM

You're evil.

Second query: Has anyone read Trinity?

An useless name, a forsaken connection.
NitztheBloody Nitz the Bloody from SO CAL Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Nitz the Bloody
Dec 19th 2009 at 2:46:34 PM

Which one, Matt Wagner's miniseries, or Kurt Busiek and Mark Bagley's weekly title? Haven't read the former, tried the first collection of the latter and found it difficult and unsatisfying to follow.

We Are The Wyrecats Needs Tropes!
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest
Dec 22nd 2009 at 3:05:21 PM

So I just gave my brother One More Day. He likes it. Lord.

Meanwhile, I just got Transmetropolitan: Back On The Street. Upon opening the book, I was greeted with the following line:

I was having a mildly paranoid day, mostly due to the fact that the mad priest lady from over the river had taken to nailing weasels to my front door again.

A couple pages afterwards, the POV character drives past a bar, says how much he hates it, pulls out a rocket launcher and fires at it.

This is gonna be one of those comics, isn't it?

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Dec 22nd 2009 at 9:33:50 PM

Just finished Kingdom Come. Why didn't ya like Norman, Wicked?

The art gives me a headache, and the dialogue is meh. As for whether you need to be familiar with comics to appreciate Kingdom Come—I didn't know who half the cast were, and that pissed me off. "Billy Batson? Captain Marvel? Huhwut?"

edited 22nd Dec '09 9:33:58 PM by melloncollie

NitztheBloody Nitz the Bloody from SO CAL Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Nitz the Bloody
Dec 23rd 2009 at 5:01:05 PM

This is gonna be one of those comics, isn't it?

The entire universe of Transmetropolitan is Chaotic Neutral; every form of sexual deviance is practiced on the streets in broad daylight, consumers can buy human meat, and futurist reservations exist with daily civilian casualties for science. In this context, Spider Jerusalem fits in perfectly, and can even be a hero against the Lawful Evil antagonist.

We Are The Wyrecats Needs Tropes!
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest
Dec 23rd 2009 at 5:06:40 PM

^This2x is2x in f4vad3ct going to be one of4v thos2xe d3coj7mid3cs2xl9.

^His2x ef4very l9.ine in the book8, is2x "OH J7MY GOD3C THE HEROS2X A1ZRE K8,IL9.L9ING EA1ZD3CH OTHER OH J7MY GOD3C IT'S2X J7MUS2XT L9.IK8,E THE BIBL9.E OH J7MY GOD3C YOU'RE A1ZN A1ZNGEL9 D3COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO S2XOJ7METHING

edited 23rd Dec '09 5:09:43 PM by Wicked223

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
AckSed Pat. St. of Archive Binge from Pure Imagination
Pat. St. of Archive Binge
Jan 1st 2010 at 8:48:21 PM

I just read 43 issues of Transmetropolitan in a row. I... I think I'm high. On Gonzo.tongue

Spidey is a crazy awesome bastard,and I want to work "filthy assistants" into a conversation someday.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
FurikoMaru Reverse the Curse from The Arrogant Wasteland Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Reverse the Curse
Jan 1st 2010 at 9:22:17 PM

I was briefly my mother's filthy assistant. She was simultaneously worse and more polite than Spider could ever be to anyone, ever.

I was disturbed to discover that my six year old cousin Alex knows who Deadpool is. I mean, yeah, because Ultimate Marvel Alliance, but still. Freaky.

edited 1st Jan '10 9:23:01 PM by FurikoMaru

A True Lady's Quest - A Jojo is You!
AckSed Pat. St. of Archive Binge from Pure Imagination
Pat. St. of Archive Binge
Jan 2nd 2010 at 2:10:13 PM

Finished Transmetropolitan and,though it wasn't at the same mindblast intensity,the endgame was a hell of a ride. I liked and was somewhat disturbed at the gradual metamorphosis of Yolanda into his apprentice/understudy (spider tats,shaved head and carrying his child),and the Hunter S. Thompson shout out right at the end.

Wonderful.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
Respect the Red Right Hand
Jan 2nd 2010 at 2:54:57 PM

^His every line in the book, is "OH MY GOD THE HEROS ARE KILLING EACH OTHER OH MY GOD 3 C IT'S JUST LIKE THE BIBLE OH MY GOD YOU'RE AN ANGEL

Uh... that's kind of the whole point.

Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest
Jan 2nd 2010 at 3:57:27 PM

That doesn't mean it didn't annoy me.

Oh, and I finished Transmetropolitan: Back On The Street. It was... weird.

edited 2nd Jan '10 3:58:18 PM by Wicked223

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
rbx5 Rbx5
Rbx5
Jan 4th 2010 at 5:59:14 AM

Backtracking a bit, Earth X really doesn't get enough love; I thought it was brilliant (though I stll haven't read the second half of Universe or Paradise).

I'll turn your neocortex into a flowerpot!
krrackknut Not here, look elsewhere from The empty Aether.
Not here, look elsewhere
Jan 4th 2010 at 6:17:53 AM

Go read them. They're good. Although, to be honest, Universe X was a little bit flawed.

An useless name, a forsaken connection.
Alkthash Was?
Was?
Jan 7th 2010 at 12:52:00 AM

Random thoughts:

Knights of the Old Republic #48 had a Shout-Out about us in the letters section. Nifty.

Also Siege has been kicked off in Marvel. So far just a rehash of Civil War and Osborn finally snapping. Oh and the awesomeness of Ares ridding into battle on top of a fighter jet.

The Embedded tie in I liked a bit more than the actual Siege comic. Mostly because of Ben Urich and Volstaag. And the freakin' sweet line where the camera man declares that they are "going to kick Norman Osborn's ass. With the power of journalism!."

edited 7th Jan '10 12:52:28 AM by Alkthash


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