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I think knowing stuff about superheroes in general is less specific than knowing things about specific DC heroes. The basics (superheroes have secret identities, they fight crime etc.) that Watchmen requires is something that is pretty much universal knowledge in western society. The Cold War stuff is a bit more restrictive, but nowhere as specialized as the KC stuff.
When I read Watchmen, my only prior experience with comic books superheroes were Saturday morning cartoon adaptations and a couple of Spider-Man comics that I read when I was seven. I understood it just fine. I have not read Kingdom Come, and thus have no idea how it compares, accessibility-wise.
Regarding the idea that Rorschach was the only "moral" character in the story, well, that's blatantly untrue. Ozy believed that saving the world was "the right thing to do" and that anything done to further this goal was therefore also "the right thing to do," just as Rorschach thought that cleaning up the streets was "the right thing to do" and that anything done to further this goal was therefore also "the right thing to do."
edited 18th Dec '09 12:42:28 AM by Taelor
"I think knowing stuff about superheroes in general is less specific than knowing things about specific DC heroes. The basics (superheroes have secret identities, they fight crime etc.) that Watchmen requires is something that is pretty much universal knowledge in western society. The Cold War stuff is a bit more restrictive, but nowhere as specialized as the KC stuff."
It's not the specifics, but the breath. That series takes a lot of tropes apart, and if you don't know a lot, you will get lost. Now most superhero stories can get one used to those tropes, but if you just need to watch one or two specific series, that is not "significantly less" than for KC.
I'm not arguing it's less to know. I'm calling on your claim it's a hell of a lot more to know than just somewhat more to know.
Plus your original claim was the knowledge required was far more narrow than even that.
edited 18th Dec '09 12:54:08 AM by DragonQuestZ
But the very breadth is precisley why Watchmen is more accessible: You can get these tropes from just about anywhere, and you don't need any kind of specific knowledge, while KC requires you to know (pretty much) specifically the DCU and specifically 90's comics.
EDIT: basically watchmen requires you to be familiar with superhero tropes (and to some degree Cold War tropes) Kingdom Come requires you to be familiar (if only in a shallow way) with specific works.
edited 18th Dec '09 1:01:40 AM by Arilou
It's still not the very narrow degree you are claiming.
Okay, to divert the course of the derail just a little, who here has read Watchmen, Kingdom Come, AND Earth X? What did you think/feel?
edited 18th Dec '09 2:15:02 AM by krrackknut
I've read them all (but not the sequels to Earth X)
I think Watchmen is in a class entirely of it's own. The others are fine stories, don't get me wrong, but Watchmen is on a different level entirely.
All Kingdom Come takes is you know the basic premises of Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the anti-hero. Now, if you want to get all of the references, you need deeper knowledge. But everyone knows the basics you need by age 10, if you're living in the US and not under a rock.
I've read Watchmen, Kingdom Come, and Earth X.
I enjoyed Earth X the most, with Watchmen a little behind and then Kingdom Come. I loved how much the Marvel Universe had changed in Earth X, and this was back when all I knew about it was from video games and Wikipedia. Absolutely awesome artwork too, not that it's amazing on it's own but it fits the great story and atmosphere perfectly. Watchmen was awesome too, a bit overrated (imo, of course) but very good nonetheless, also was cool picking up on all the Cold War stuff (I like history so yeah). Kingdom Come was cool, but a lot less coherent than either of the above two. The plot was very lacking in substance, even though the writing and art was great.
Finished Kingdom Come today.
There is only one thing wrong with that book, and one thing only: Norman. McCay.
edited 18th Dec '09 2:18:54 PM by Wicked223
When I came home with a copy of Kingdom Come, my brother started badgering me for a comic for him to read. I told him I'd get him One More Day.
Second query: Has anyone read Trinity?
Which one, Matt Wagner's miniseries, or Kurt Busiek and Mark Bagley's weekly title? Haven't read the former, tried the first collection of the latter and found it difficult and unsatisfying to follow.
So I just gave my brother One More Day. He likes it. Lord.
Meanwhile, I just got Transmetropolitan: Back On The Street. Upon opening the book, I was greeted with the following line:
A couple pages afterwards, the POV character drives past a bar, says how much he hates it, pulls out a rocket launcher and fires at it.
This is gonna be one of those comics, isn't it?
Just finished Kingdom Come. Why didn't ya like Norman, Wicked?
The art gives me a headache, and the dialogue is meh. As for whether you need to be familiar with comics to appreciate Kingdom Come—I didn't know who half the cast were, and that pissed me off. "Billy Batson? Captain Marvel? Huhwut?"
edited 22nd Dec '09 9:33:58 PM by melloncollie
The entire universe of Transmetropolitan is Chaotic Neutral; every form of sexual deviance is practiced on the streets in broad daylight, consumers can buy human meat, and futurist reservations exist with daily civilian casualties for science. In this context, Spider Jerusalem fits in perfectly, and can even be a hero against the Lawful Evil antagonist.
^This2x is2x in f4vad3ct going to be one of4v thos2xe d3coj7mid3cs2xl9.
^His2x ef4very l9.ine in the book8, is2x "OH J7MY GOD3C THE HEROS2X A1ZRE K8,IL9.L9ING EA1ZD3CH OTHER OH J7MY GOD3C IT'S2X J7MUS2XT L9.IK8,E THE BIBL9.E OH J7MY GOD3C YOU'RE A1ZN A1ZNGEL9 D3COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO S2XOJ7METHING
edited 23rd Dec '09 5:09:43 PM by Wicked223
I just read 43 issues of Transmetropolitan in a row. I... I think I'm high. On Gonzo.
Spidey is a crazy awesome bastard,and I want to work "filthy assistants" into a conversation someday.
I was briefly my mother's filthy assistant. She was simultaneously worse and more polite than Spider could ever be to anyone, ever.
I was disturbed to discover that my six year old cousin Alex knows who Deadpool is. I mean, yeah, because Ultimate Marvel Alliance, but still. Freaky.
edited 1st Jan '10 9:23:01 PM by FurikoMaru
Finished Transmetropolitan and,though it wasn't at the same mindblast intensity,the endgame was a hell of a ride. I liked and was somewhat disturbed at the gradual metamorphosis of Yolanda into his apprentice/understudy (spider tats,shaved head and carrying his child),and the Hunter S. Thompson shout out right at the end.
Uh... that's kind of the whole point.
That doesn't mean it didn't annoy me.
Oh, and I finished Transmetropolitan: Back On The Street. It was... weird.
edited 2nd Jan '10 3:58:18 PM by Wicked223
Backtracking a bit, Earth X really doesn't get enough love; I thought it was brilliant (though I stll haven't read the second half of Universe or Paradise).
Go read them. They're good. Although, to be honest, Universe X was a little bit flawed.
Knights of the Old Republic #48 had a Shout-Out about us in the letters section. Nifty.
Also Siege has been kicked off in Marvel. So far just a rehash of Civil War and Osborn finally snapping. Oh and the awesomeness of Ares ridding into battle on top of a fighter jet.
The Embedded tie in I liked a bit more than the actual Siege comic. Mostly because of Ben Urich and Volstaag. And the freakin' sweet line where the camera man declares that they are "going to kick Norman Osborn's ass. With the power of journalism!."
edited 7th Jan '10 12:52:28 AM by Alkthash
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