Series/Sherlock

I liked the suspense and elements of the stakes and likability of Sherlock and crew in the center. Not a fan of Euros at all, though. She came off as a Villain Sue to me. Of the Marty Tzu variant as I found myself finding her feats ridiculous whenever I thought about the work required to actually do stuff. Well, with some. Others felt like "She's smart, we don't need to explain how" type logic, which ticks me off in these sorts of things given that I'm in it for the intellectual thrill.

Yeah, her Kilgrave powers were especially jarring.

Yeah, Eurus wasn't a particularly compelling villain and the Compelling Voice stretched my suspension of disbelief. I kind of got the impression that they wanted to reuse Moriarty without coming up with an excuse to bring him back, so they created Eurus instead. That scene at the end with the violin duet was great though.

Overall, I enjoyed this episode. While Eurus was kind of bland, the episode was very intense and emotional (especially with that scene with Molly and the one after with Mycroft). That being said, I do hope that Moffat and Gattis let this be the real finale. It's a good ending point.

Edit: @T Paradox: I'm kind of relieved that I'm not the only one that happened to. If you haven't already seen it, it's currently streaming on PBS's website.

edited 15th Jan '17 9:17:40 PM by lrrose

I liked the episode, even though, as mentioned, parts of it stretched credibility. I can't say I feel any sympathy for Eurus, really, though I took it, given how things ended, that it's entirely possible that her "games" with Sherlock, Mycroft, and John were actually a genuine attempt to understand emotions and emotional context.

Still don't feel bad for her though. Locked up is exactly where she belongs.

I think it was too, though my issue with how they went that route is the fact she's not all that sympathetic. She's the sort of villain you gain catharsis from defeating, so that ending felt unearned. It didn't build to that sort of ending. If anything, it made me side with Mycroft that she's better left locked up.

Also another reason I call her a Villain Sue. Hell, the specific struggle of being around people but feeling isolated mentally is something I can relate to, but because of how she acts, all I can think is "Cool motive, still murder!"

edited 16th Jan '17 1:12:55 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

Well, now that I have seen the whole season I can honestly say: Season 4 sucked! The only episode which worked at least partly was the second one, the other two were just giant let-downs. A collection of some of the worst tendencies of the writers with next to nothing of the good ones in it.

I'll agree that this season was weak compared to the rest, but I won't go so far as to say it sucked. Disappointing, sure, but I don't feel like I want my 3x90 minutes back.

Well.

This was quite a thing.

looking at the rest of the comments, am I really the only one here who finished the episode with some strange kind of pity for Eurus?

To me personally I can't find anything sympathetic about Eurus, because though intellectually I kinda get her motivation, her character wasn't developed enough for me to care about it, so I agree with Prime_of_Perfection, I side with Mycroft with the feeling that she needs to be locked up.

And I know a lot of people were complaining about this season trying real hard to be James Bond, but this episode really gave me some major Skyfall feelings.

Watching it right now, but I am not particularly impressed so far.

• That has to be the worst Villain Sue I have ever seen. Willing Suspension of Disbelief doesn't even begin to describe the entire plot. Worst of all, it simply doesn't feel like a follow-up of an episode where Sherlock got John's wife killed. Without that element of story, it would have worked 100 times better, but seeing them so chummy at the beginning (after the cliffhanger of the previous episode)...no, just no.
• I honestly felt more empathy for fucking Kilgrave. That's how stupid Eurus' Start of Darkness was. We were seriously one step away from "you ate the last cake part, therefore I will turn into a criminal mastermind".
• The plane metaphor was dumb.
• Mycroft lying to Sherlock about Eurus' real crime doesn't even begin to make sense. He had zero reason not to tell him the truth.
• There also was exactly zero reason to have the flat blow up either. There were a hundred more believable ways to play the twist that the bearded sailor wasn't Sherlock, but Mycroft.
• Molly being a plot device immediately forgotten after serving her purpose, for the upteenth time. Maybe it's a Running Gag now. The next episode should be her Breaking the Fourth Wall and escaping from a show that utterly treats her like crap.
• There were a few very good scenes, Sherlock/Mycroft and the duet in particular.

But overall, for such an interesting premise, that was a huuuuge letdown.

edited 16th Jan '17 6:08:32 AM by Julep

Oh, I felt some pity for her, just not enough to develop into sympathy given the stuff she did. It's sad that she should need to be locked up and kept away from people, but that's the best thing for everyone, given her apparent proclivities.

Does anyone else get the sense that Moffat and Gatniss are kind of demonizing intelligence here? Throughout the series, the exceptionally intelligent have been portrayed as at best asocial asshats and at worst murdering psychos. I get that they probably want to hit upon the isolation of exceptionalism, or the necessity of human ties to a stable personality, but they could have given us at least one genius who wasn't either a bastard, an amoral mercenary, or a dangerous sociopath.

edited 16th Jan '17 9:47:07 AM by Robbery

I am actually not sure what they intended...for all his talk about Sherlock discovering his emotional side and letting loose on it, it actually doesn't make a lot of sense for Eurus being what convinces him to do so because her motivation is entirely emotional. She murders her first victim because she is jealous and then goes and obsesses over Sherlock because she wants an emotional connection. I felt that the writers confused having a morel compass (which Eurus lacks) with having emotions (which she has in spades). And Sherlock is exactly the same, his issue was never the lack of emotions, despite all his talk he had plenty of them, it was that he had trouble to understand the reasoning behind moral.

Or, to put it differently: I never needed to know if John would murder one person to ensure that not two die. I knew that he wouldn't. But put Sherlock into the same situation, well, he actually might consider it logical to do so.

Both John and Sherlock have killed people before, in order to save someone (the cab driver from 'A Study in Pink' and Magnussen), I think the distinction here is that they wouldn't kill an innocent person in order to save other innocent people, though there's at least the implication that Sherlock would consider it, considering how fast he picked Mycroft to do the first test.

@Robbery I never got that sense myself so much as they just wanted smart villains and messing with the idea that Sherlock is a sociopath.

Which, speaking of, I've a theory why that originated. It's all the fault of deconstructing the cozy mystery. Cozies are designed to be more detached from the crime and treat it more like an intellectual puzzle to solve, with emphasis on the puzzle instead of emotions. Thus, someone deconstructed it and took it to the extreme that they're sociopaths. Then factor in that Sherlock Holmes is just the trope populizer in so many ways and tada, Holmes must be a sociopath! Even if the original books don't support that interpretation.

That's my theory for now, it came to me when I was studying the relationship between POV and genre a couple of months back. It's relevant here as I think it's less them trying to condemn intelligence so much as just trying to find foes who are a challenge for Sherlock and draw out his emotions so he can develop as a person. That and just genre, though I feel they lost focus on Sherlock as a fair play mystery some time ago.

My criticisms of this episode aside, I do wish to say there's some ideas in this I liked. I feel in a bubble, there's stuff I enjoyed, particularly the idea of a villain trying to understand emotions and pushing the buttons of someone who pretends to not have them. I liked the suspense I felt in a couple of scenes since, illogical aspects aside, I feel they did a good job on delivering suspense in Act 2. Just within a bubble. Plus things like the suspense of the killing an innocent scene or the rush to try and help this child and so on were decent ideas in a bubble. I certainly recalled once more why I love suspense as a genre. It's just that this episode also reminded me why I feel having a full package is so important as I hate the disappointment that comes from witnessing decent ideas marred by other problems.

edited 16th Jan '17 1:34:00 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

For the record, Moffat has said that Sherlock was never a sociopath and it's generally not great, when watching shows, to believe characters' self-assessments.

So it's less "to be doing what he does Sherlock must be a sociopath" and more "to be doing what he does Sherlock must believe with every fiber of his being that the violence he sees doesn't touch him."

edited 16th Jan '17 1:50:03 PM by Wackd

I didn't think he was, he clearly has empathy. Something that I really hate is people assuming that someone is a sociopath just because they don't wear their hearts on sleeve or aren't always the best socially.

Regardless, the most important thing that comes with that: I was right! I win a pointless argument with an acquittance! I've no plans to bring it up, personal satisfaction is all I need!

I think you may be misdefining what a "cozy mystery" is. In cozies, the gorier and more salacious aspects of crime are downplayed or treated humorously, and the crime and detection take place in a small, socially intimate community. The investigator is generally not a member of the police or a professional detective of any kind. Think Agatha Christie's Miss Marple stories. "Logic puzzle" mysteries (which is more the tradition that the Holmes stories follow, as well as those of the English thriller) are something else. There, of course, can be overlap.

I must say, I don't like it either when people conflate simple emotional reserve with coldness or detachment. Not everyone is demonstrative.

edited 16th Jan '17 2:12:19 PM by Robbery

I'm aware. Holmes stories evolved quite a bit actually under Doyle's hands. What I'm speaking of there is just the cozy in general and modern perception, not the reality. And how perception can result in certain interpretations.

From what I've found, many equate the cozy to more British style while noir is more American. While there are always reasons and nuggets of truth, the important thing there is with perception. Cozy aspects that can lead to deconstruction, cross with the perception of Holmes, the assumption that his stories are like that from people who have never read his stories, and assumption that they're like those other cozies due to a few of Holmes popular traits and reoccuring ones there equals the flawed assumption that influences some portrayals.

Or, to simplify, truths (the appearance of detachment, as most often seen in cozy) which gave birth to Common Knowledge and that common knowledge then later deconstructed.

edited 16th Jan '17 2:32:30 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

I always had the sense from the books that Holmes's hyperfocus often led him to forget social niceties, though he did try to uphold them.

Couple of thoughts about a connection I noticed to some other Sherlockia:

I remembered that I had seen the movie Mr. Holmes and it uses the device of Holmes being unable to remember a case/a woman as well as the element of deducing/failing to deduce that someone is suicidal. Wonder if it inspired some of the Lying Detective/Eurus stuff.

Also, when the scandal came out I had read a bit about Jimmy Saville so I definitely could see connections to him. Most obviously the ties to a hospital and "favorite room" (ugh). But I was also struck by that one scene where Culverton Smith is doing that cereal commercial and is joking/flirtatious toward the prop assistant (I guess that would be her title), and it resonated with my impression that Saville had covered up his nature through a cheeky Benny Hill-ish persona.

Can also see the alleged Trump connection though. Among other things,Culverton Smith and Donald seem to share the same taste in suits.

Also as a random comment, I saw this past week's episode of Timeless also dealt with the serial killer H.H. Holmes. Thought I could go at least a week without hearing about that psycho.

The "Murder Castle" bit was mostly media sensationalism. It did have a gas chamber, and it did have a crematory oven in the basement, but that was about it really. Given that all the rooms had gaslight, it's suspected that he might have occasionally fooled with the fixtures in order to gas people, but, while possible, that would have been problematic. It was poorly constructed from bad designs that H.H. Holmes, not an architect, drew up himself (which led to it's looking weird). The reality is chilling enough, but it wasn't some kind of horror movie evil funhouse.

edited 17th Jan '17 8:18:10 AM by Robbery

Had a question- Was what Mycroft was watching at the beginning of the episode a real Film Noir? From the look of it, I got the sense it might not be and was like a retraux parody of one. If so, who were the actors in it?

Edit- Never mind. From a bit of additional googling found that they were Tam Mutu and Clare Foster. Wonder if there was a reason those particular people were cast.

edited 17th Jan '17 8:38:06 PM by Hodor2

Oh wow. I started to pick up reading Sherlock Holmes stories again but forgot that this show is back on air again. Gotta check the episodes out as soon as possible.

I finally got around to watching the first episode of season four. I... didn't like it. The mystery was limp to the point of feeling almost non-existent, the solution was unsatisfactory, the story was way too far removed from anything that felt like it belonged in a Sherlock Holmes story, the ending dragged... I just feel like between this and the utter nonsense of "The Abominable Bride", this show is giving in to its worst impulses.

It's the fourth series of a drama. It's allowed to lean more on what it's built up than on what it began as.