World Of Warcraft

Now what if: Sylvanas gets couped with little resistance but PLOTTWIST so does Anduin and now the tables are turned, a peace seeking Horde versus a vengeful Alliance.

I mean. generally when you have become a literal avatar of divine vengeance lets just say I aint holding my breath on you having any semblance of mercy.

I would take that, though it would of course still come with the caveat that the Alliance is still blank-checked do do what they want thanks to Teldrassil. If things took a slow slide from 'completely justified' into 'okay, Sylvanas doesn't work here anymore' to 'holy crap, guys, settle the hell down', that could be pretty interesting.

So she hasn't actually done anything, then?

In the novel where Garrosh is put on trial, Tyrande does try to make it about judging orcs and the Horde as a whole instead of just him, though I don't remember if she argues for their execution.

Note, I'm not going off of morality here, Anduin is fairly indisputably the leader who wants to do the most good.

But refusing to press the Horde after dealing a serious blow to Zukdazar and leaving the Zandalari navy unable to contest the Kul Tirans because trying to snuff out the Horde's hope of victory is something Sylvanas would do?

Yes, Anduin, she would. Because this is how wars work.

If we accept the premise that the office of High King is a successor to Anduin Lothar's title as Alliance Supreme Commander, then Anduin has failed to live up to that office, and should be replaced.

Do we accept that premise?

That is what Blizzard described the office as back when it was introduced in Mists of Pandaria. It was an office related to coordinating Alliance forces under a single leader rather than an investiture of supreme authority.

"High King as a successor to the Supreme Commander" was never really believable, if only because they have vastly different meanings. Blizzard wanted an Alliance equivalent to the Horde's Warchief so that's what we got. I mean for all intents and purpose the title of HK was inherited by the teenage son of the first one.

The most trying time for any inherited position is directly after the death of the original founder, after all. We're seeing if Anduin has the charisma, or the luck, to hold the Alliance together through sheer force of his own personality overbearing theirs, the way Varian did. Too bad for him that the Alliance leaders picked his reign to start developing personalities, but oh well.

And once again, I have to say that I am really, really not happy with the Alliance kicking the Horde's shit in, including the entire reason we went to Zandalar in the first place, so easily that all they lose is Jaina's perfect coiffe and an injury to easily the most relevant of all Alliance leaders, followed by them sparing our entire faction because "we could be like you, but we're better than that".

The logic is majorly off which this data mining suggests is not even in their mind. Org cant be invaded by sea with those mountains, you gotta land to the south which is then going to be flanked by the Tauren and attacked from behind by the Zandalari and Blood Elves. Not to mention that Org is fortified and now they have the Iron Horde Mag'har and goblins working together again. The casualties would be insane for something that is likely to be a failure.

To be fair: The War of Thorns was a disastrous defeat for the Alliance, and the Battle of Lordaeron didn't exactly go well either. Even Ion said as much on the stream he announced Tides of Vengeance, calling the Battle of Lordaeron a defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. It's about time the Alliance gets a more clear victory.

Edited by StormKnight on Oct 1st 2018 at 6:54:36 PM

Not to mention they now have some very angry, very vengeful Trolls out for their blood. Its like Anduin told Tyrande, they can't afford to have too many fronts in this war.

Also, apparently this war is being called the Blood War on Wowpedia, presumably due to how critical Azerite is in both how and why the war started, and how its being fought.

Clear victory, perhaps. Clear victory via the complete destruction of the Horde's major objective at this stage, the death of a Horde leader, and finishing it up with not only a Not Worth Killing speech made somehow worse by claiming that it's specifically because the Alliance is above that?

That just smacks of You Can't Thwart Stage One to me, and I sure as heck hope it is.

Edited by RedSavant on Oct 1st 2018 at 12:54:58 PM

In what way was the Battle of Lorderon not a massive alliance victory? The city is unusable but the horde have lost all land in EK proper, the horde has to air drop absolutely everything.

Horde won a surprise attack and lost every single other thing. Its like if Japan lost continuously after Pearl Harbor instead of winning until the Battle of Coral Sea.

Edited by Memers on Oct 1st 2018 at 10:04:21 AM

Also, some interesting story tidbits that I don't think was mentioned yet. Apparently, despite being willing to discuss reclaiming the Horde's honor with Anduin back in Lordearon, Saurfang ends up busting out of the Stockade, so Sylvanas sends you along with an elite squad of Dark Rangers to find him and rescue him.

...Except it turns out that the Dark Rangers' mission isn't to rescue Saurfang, but to murder him for "betraying" Sylvanas by letting Malfurion escape during the War of Thorns and letting himself get captured during the Battle of Lordaeron. With the help of Zekhan, you manage to kill the Dark Rangers, and Saurfang gives you a real wound so you can bluff Sylvanas into believing that the mission failed and Saurfang slaughtered the Dark Rangers, with you barely surviving. Sylvanas buys it...for now, but the fact is, you have now actively bore your weapons against and outright killed members of your Horde to defend a "traitor" and directly defied the will of the Warchief. If anyone ever finds out...

Needless to say, its definitely an interesting setup for potential future conflict in the Horde.

It's a failure in the sense the goal was to reclaim Lordaeron, which the Alliance couldn't do anymore, and they didn't kill Sylvanas, which was another goal. They tossed a bunch of soldiers at that keep and their only prize was an orc who's now persona non grata.

Plus the Horde has Silvermoon, so they aren't completely out of the EK

Edited by sgamer82 on Oct 1st 2018 at 11:11:22 AM

Silvermoon is completely locked out of the rest of EK, there is one small pass and passing through stratholme / deatholme to get to the rest of EK... The only way forces are getting from Silvermoon to anywhere is by boat or airship.

Still, the Alliance did not get what they were hoping to out of the Battle For Lordaeron, so it's not hard to classify it a failure.

The Alliance had to know that Lordaeron was never coming back to them. The whole city's been hollowed out and turned into a septic sewer, and the castle was falling apart before they blew it open.

Lordaeron Keep hasn't been anything more than a symbol for years, and while I'm sure it rankled having the Forsaken squatting in the former crown of the human kingdoms, it was never coming back under human control. Driving them out of their holdings is really the best the Alliance could have hoped for aside from, say, all of the Horde leadership conveniently getting plagued so they could kill us all and be done with it.

Edited by RedSavant on Oct 1st 2018 at 1:22:09 PM

I'm not sure that's true. I've always been under the impression the Alliance in general and survivors of Lordaeron in particular want to take their homeland back. That's part of why Sylvanas' plaguing the keep was such a big middle finger.

Honestly, unless things suddenly start going really downhill for the Alliance in 8.2 and/or 8.3, I can't see a rebellion against Anduin cropping up any time soon. Tyrande is so far the only Alliance leader to take issue with how he's handling the war. Jaina fully supports him, Genn, despite his debt of gratitude to the Night Elves, is still holding firm to his Undying Loyalty to the crown, and unless the Gnomes somehow blame Anduin for Mekkatorgue's Human Popsicle state, none of the other races or racial leaders have any reason or motivation to turn on him.

Plus he has Velen in his corner and he's on good terms with one-third of the Council of Three Hammers

That is like saying The Invasion of Normandy wasn't a victory just cause it took longer than originally expected or because Hitler didn't surrender the day after a solid foothold was gained.

It didn't win the war but it was a massive victory.

The Iron Horde Mag'har and Goblins team up to create a sub that allows them to penetrate the Deep Run Tram which they collapse 1 side and raid Iron Forge killing Two of the Three Hammers. Or Arathi is taken by the horde and push south leading to the invasion of Iron Forge and Gnomer.

Edited by Memers on Oct 1st 2018 at 10:48:15 AM

It was a massive victory because it hurt the other side and, far as I know, achieved some, if not all, of its intended goal

Here the Alliance beat their heads against a keep, fighting and dying to take a place Sylvanas was willing to give up in the first place, if she needed to, only to have that place rendered unusable for the foreseeable future. All that effort gained little their enemy didn't go in already prepared to lose, and made gaining as costly as she possibly could. That's a Pyrrhic Victory at best.

To go back to the original point, though, whether you see the Battle for Lordaeron as being a victory or a loss, though, it's not hard to see how it could be seen as the other.

Edited by sgamer82 on Oct 1st 2018 at 11:57:35 AM