A Song Of Ice And Fire

...How? So are a lot of characters in the North.

I think this is intentional on GRRM's part. The bulk of the series is given to everybody fighting and killing over who gets to be the emperor, while up in the far north Jon and Sam are the only POV characters dealing with the invasion of zombies and ice demons which is an existential threat to human life. (I also really like Jon and Sam, which helps sell me on their bits).

Well, there are other people fighting the threat.

That's a strange argument. There are lots of characters everywhere. That doesn't mean it hard to recognize which ones are the protagonists of any particular plotline.

Edited by Gilphon on May 17th 2021 at 3:29:10 PM

But Jon Snow isn't a protagonist...

What? Jon is the closest character the series has to being THE protagonist. The only character with more POV chapters than him is Tyrion, an half of Tyrion's chapters are used to show what other characters who don't get PO Vs are doing.

I mean, he's important as a POV character and nothing more, but if that's what everyone's saying, I won't argue...

I think what we're getting at here is how much events in the story are actually driven by Jon and his actions, and how much he's just someone who's around while events happen.

That's hardly unique to ASOIAF. Frodo wouldn't really be a/the protagonist of Lord of the Rings under that logic, as Gandalf and Aragorn actually drive the plot against Sauron and even in Frodo's own storyline it's as much about Sam and Gollum as Frodo himself.

I wouldn’t say so. Frodo’s choice at the Council or Elrond to be the Ring-bearer is what allows the plot the plot to happen, and the central purpose of Gandalf and Aragorn’s efforts in the War of the Ring is to distract Sauron so he doesn’t notice Frodo; it’s a sideplot that resembles the main plot of a more typical fantasy book. Frodo’s quest is the main plot.

Likewise, Frodo’s repeated decision to show mercy to Gollum is what enables the destruction of the Ring. It’s only when the Ring has physically and spiritually drained Frodo to the point that he can barely keep going that Sam needs to take over the leading role in their journey through Mordor.

For Jon in ASOIAF - I would say he grows into his role. What’s important about him in the first few books is his willingness to learn. There’s a striking scene early on where it looks like the usual one where the protagonist is being buillied by all their peers, and then Tyrion turns it around on him and says, look, you’re immensely more privileged than these people, or course they resent you. And Jon listens and starts making friends rather than just trying to prove he’s a more skilled fighter than everyone else (or course he is, he’s castle-trained, many of these boys have never held a sword).

And when he joins the wildlings, he learns to understand and empathize with their culture. While at the same time still being willing to defend Castle Black against them, and lead the defense when there is no one else to do it. And that is what makes him the only person who could negotiate the peace that he does in ADWD. The first three and a half books are “happening to him”, but he’s taking away from them the lessons that he needs to be Lord Commander.

Edited by Galadriel on May 18th 2021 at 6:21:52 AM

Also, the books as a whole mostly follow characters who are not the main movers and shakers in the plot themselves, but rather close to the people who are. Notice how Varys, Tywin, Littlefinger, Robb, Stannis, Renly etc are not POV characters.

Yeah, even when Tyrion becomes Hand he's the Hand to Joffrey, which basically makes him constantly ignored because Joffrey's an idiot.

I don't really know what I expected of Jon before the Game of Thrones show, which I consider to be a reasonably accurate depiction of his future character arc. So I have to confess that I wouldn't necessarily have expected Jon to interact with other "movers and shakers", especially Danaerys.

That being said, Jon is sort of a parody of (or at least subversive take on) Aragorn, starting with the fact that he's not technically a Ranger of the Night's Watch. Despite being obviously "protagonist-y", including being the hidden king chosen one, he's stuck in a position that is far removed from Westeros. And of course at the end of ADWD, he's dead.

Now I could kind of see if someone thought his story would end there and be a "Shaggy Dog" Story, barring that, I'd say he's clearly quite important to the story.

In the show at least he's basically Aragorn except due to reasons he doesn't get the throne or his love interest. But he still does get a relatively happy ending.

Edited by M84 on May 20th 2021 at 3:20:32 AM

Does anyone actually believe he'll stay dead? Came Back Wrong is a distinct possibility given the other examples of resurrection, but staying dead seems unlikely.

He was stabbed multiple times by long blades in a chapter narrated by himself in which he fells himself dying. Of course he's alive. If he was actually dead, we'd only have gotten vague, second-hand, not-entirely-consistent reports from non-POV characters who weren't present at the event.

I've never really interacted with anyone who expects him to stay dead. Though I certainly hope there's at least some degree of Came Back Wrong.

My pet theory is that he wargs into Ghost, and then his body either becomes a wight or is revived by Melisandre, and he wargs back into his reanimated body, so there's a weird combination of wolf stuff, jon stuff, and side effect of how his body was brought back.

Edited by Gilphon on May 19th 2021 at 3:56:18 PM

While I'm not hoping for a no-string-attached resurrection, some have pointed out that his situation is essentially a perfect storm for one, between the cold to preserve his body, his warg abilities to preserve his mind, and Mel being close at hand. The known examples of Came Back Wrong involved a significant amount of degradation: Stoneheart had been dead and decaying for days before she was brought back, while Beric was damaged bit by bit by his many deaths. Jon could in fact escape the worst of it.

I'd actually say that I'm hoping we don't get a no-strings-attached resurrection. There wouldn't be a lot of point in killing him if he was just going be patched up good as new.

Except that, having died, he'd presumably have fulfilled his Night Watch vow to serve for life, and so is now free of his obligations to them.

I suddenly have a renewed concern about Martin finishing the series.

Kentaro Miura?

And with that, we come to the other thing I super don't want to see happen as a consequence. Like he's been given so many opportunities and excuses to ditch. And he's never taken any of them. I'd really hate if an exact words loophole was the thing that made he decide he wanted out.

It's not like this is a magically binding curse he's trying to find a way out of. This is a thing he swore to do and has stuck to because he's honourable.

Though I imagine if anything would get him to go "fuck it, I'm done with this shit" it'd be being betrayed and killed.

The show plays it as the assassination (and resurrection) basically breaking Jon Snow completely. After that point he quits the Night's Watch because he's just completely tired of fighting (and maybe even living), so his arc in the rest of the show is basically being forced into conflicts he has 0 desire to fight in because he's just completely exhausted of living and just wishes to settle down in peace.