Split Honest Johns Dealership.: Ptitle5nn0czid

I was looking at the Dying Like Animals page, under the 'Weasels' entry. They were described as tricksters who sell shoddy items for a high price, but the actual trope it links to is includes all characters who sell illegal items at a price.

The problem is, there is a big difference between a used car salesman who sells crud, and someone like Private Walker from Dad's Army who sells useful, hard to get items (if at a price). One is ultimately scamming the good guys, while the other is aiding them.

My solution to the problem would be to split the trope, but I know that many tropers dislike that approach as they believe that tropes should be neutral. The article itself isn't neutral however, it's written in the assumption that all are scammers. We could re-write the trope to include both definitions.

What do you think?

How are the wicks and examples? Is there a split in definitions among how the trope is used on the wiki, other than that particular case?

Making the trope more inclusive would seem to be the preferred default, unless that makes it too unwieldy.

To me, the concept of someone who sells you stuff at a ridiculously inflated price to take advantage of demand is different from someone who deliberately sells you shoddy goods under the pretense of reliability (or economy).

edited 16th Nov '09 12:32:46 PM by Fighteer

Thinking it over on the way back from University, I've worked out what the problem is. The trope in Dying Like Animals doesn't exist, and it's being directed to Honest John when it doesn't really fit.

As we said before, a Honest John is someone who lives to make money through barely legitimate means. People like Bubs, Del Boy and Dibbler. This is a neutral trope, and should stay that way; there's people on both sides of the fence (and often on the fence).

When a Honest John is put into a dramatic and possibly lucrative situation however, it generally leads to one of three things:

1)Honest John decides to be honourable, making money by providing restricted quality goods to the community (and often the Heroes) 2)Honest John decides to be dishonourable, making money by preying on the communities fears and selling genuinely useless items. 3)Honest John decides to not get involved, and continues their 'get-rich-quick' schemes.

1 and 2, I think, need their own tropes; they're the ones that would fit the Dying Like Animals and Fighting For Survival lists.

Your first variant should be something like Black Market Good Guy.

Put another way, Friend in the Black Market. To put it another "too long for the title" way, helps the community, La Résistance, the heroes, etc, or otherwise Stick It To The Man with that stuff that Fell Off the Back of a Truck. Am I understanding it right?

2 might fit in with or overlap Snake Oil Salesman.

edited 16th Nov '09 6:12:22 PM by Elle

Actually, Honest John's Dealership used to be two tropes: Honest John's Dealership and Honest John's Dealership. Honest John's Dealership was deemed to be too obscure a name and too similar to Honest John's Dealership (although I think they are different enough to be separate tropes).

So how about: Slimy Salesman?

(BTW, my friend and I came across a name that would be perfect for the used car salesman at Honest John's Dealership: Lou Bible. Just think about it.)

I was thinking the 1st variety could be named Good Natured Spiv, but I'm not sure non-brits would know what a Spiv is. XD

If the 'Rewrite Honest John's Dealership and create 2 new subtropes' motion carries through, I'll make the YKTTW for them. But I think we need some consensus first.

edited 17th Nov '09 8:58:34 AM by Gerkuman

I guess no-one is really interested in this trope...

We're really bad on follow-through around here. I haven't done any major overhauls since The Unfair Sex.

Let's take a simple crowner vote and use that as an excuse to commit action in the future. I hope nobody is seriously advising against a split here. The gap between "greedy businessman with useful things for sale" and "greedy businessman who lies about what his products are worth to rip people off" is a pretty big one.

No objections to splitting along those lines.

But I do think it's funny that the trope used to be two different things: one article about unscrupulous salesmen selling wares of dubious legality in general, and another specifically about used-car salesmen. And now it's being split again, but along completely different lines.

When there's very little response to a proposal after a while but a few notes of support and no noted objections, I tend to interpret that at consensus. However, a crowner is still a good idea, and it also ought to be posted on the trope page.

edited 20th Nov '09 7:48:28 PM by Elle

Yeah, looks like consensus will be made soon. :)

Well, the crowner currently shows 18 yes to 4 no.

I'll make some title suggestions.

For the weasel who sells crap at absurd prices:

• Alleged Car Salesman (sticking with the automotive history of the trope name, also describes what he's likely to sell)
• Bargain Bin Retailer (Oh, he says his prices are bargains, too bad his merchandise belongs in the bin (and may have been scavenged from there to begin with))

For the weasel who sells useful stuff at absurd prices:

• A Small Fee (what he claims his prices are)
• Mr Moneybags

It seems to be easier to come up with names for the guy who tries to sell you junk. I wonder why?

edited 14th Dec '09 7:53:08 PM by Roxor

A guy who sells stuff you need at absurdly high prices is called a Price Gouger in the US.

Question: why was CMOT Dibbler deleted in the first place? Isn't the point of trope names to help popularize good fiction?

I vote the new trope be named CMOT Dibbler if appropiate. Everybody needs to read some Discworld if only to support one of the new decent authors this generation. (Don't let books die!)

Um, no, the point of trope names is not to popularize fiction. Much as I love Discworld, "Honest John" is a much more universally recognized figure than Dibbler.

For the "Good guys", perhaps "The Spiv" or similar (based on the WWII slang for people like Private Walker) would work? Or something punnier, I suppose.

Well we do have The Scrounger for a good guy who deals in the black market. There should be a distinction for this if we wish something new.

But The Scrounger is the guy who finds what's needed, wherever. He doesn't sell the stuff that's needed.

The Spiv works as a new name for the good guy. If I recall correctly, Medievil 2 has characters you can buy ammo from called Spivs.

Wiki article on The Spiv for those considering that name: [1]

edited 6th Jan '10 5:07:16 AM by AddythePawnSlayer

Eh, I've got nothing against Character Named Tropes in general but that one doesn't do it for me. Oh, it's British slang. Maybe it would work but I'd bet it will end up back here at least once if it gets that.

Still tossing up Friend in the Black Market, as a redirect at the least.

I'm in favor of Friend in the Black Market. Spiv is too obscure

Friend in the Black Market is pretty long, but if we phrased it any other way it would sound racial. I think we should go with that. I like Spiv, being british, but I'd rather this be followed up on ASAP.

How about Tat Merchant for the other?

edited 1st Feb '10 3:35:25 AM by Gerkuman

While I haven't seen Dad's Army, are the black market guys really portrayed that well, even if they aid the heroes? Usually, they're shown as despicable people who are using the war to take advantage of the heroes. Yes you can have the steel rope — for your life savings. (Not demanding your firstborn just yet.)