During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Whatever of Breath
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Still, if he fails at least one of the criteria for Complete Monster, he's not an example. That much should be clear, I think.
I really freaking hate the second criteria. as long as the actions are played straight, the heroes treat the villain as a Complete Monster and there's no reason to disagree with the heroes, it doesn't mean shit what the audience thinks!
and the user who started this thread told me that everyone has different standards of what is "too funny". this can muddy the issue.
Self-thumped.
edited 26th Oct '11 6:32:04 PM by nrjxll
A Complete Monster is a character that's supposed to be so vile, you can't help but feel intense hatred towards them. However, as horrible as Discord's actions are, he's still amusing to watch!
Hence he's not a Complete Monster.
Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.
that's bull. you can like a Complete Monster wile still realizing how vile they are.
and it's the actions that need to be played straight, not the character himself.
for example, I know Discord is hammy and even got slightly amused by him but at the same time, I absolutely hate him for what he did. when re-watching the episode, his "funny" moments only serve to make me hate him more.
edited 26th Oct '11 7:16:07 PM by brony99
I see the Awesomeness.
Nope sorry, if you like 'em, they're not a Complete Monster.
Fight smart, not fair.
no, Freiza is the most popular villain in the Drogon Ball series but he's a Complete Monster.
I see the Awesomeness.
Nope, sorry, calling some one something no matter how much people believe it, if he fails to meet the criteria listed, is misuse. You might be thinking of Card-Carrying Villain. Or maybe This Is Unforgivable!.
edited 27th Oct '11 3:23:27 AM by Deboss
Fight smart, not fair.
no. Friza fits all five criteria and yet, is a popular villain. the idea that the audience can't like the CM is part of the OLD definition.
Can't Discord still be a great villain and not be a Complete Monster? The mantle of CM is not like a holy grail of villainy.
Zzzzzzzzzz
<Mod Hat ON>
Brony, the criteria for Complete Monster are not the topic of this thread either. This is a Special Projects threasd, — one for co-ordinating the actual clean-up of a tropes page, subpages and wicks. It is not a TRS thread, where you would be correct in trying to get a fundamental change in the definition.
If you are going to help with the clean-up, you will use the current criteria — all of them. If you aren't willing to do that, do not help with the clean-up effort, because you won't be helping at all.
<Mod Hat OFF>
edited 27th Oct '11 5:58:33 AM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
here's a more on topic post, should Poison Ivy be in the image links? is there any continuity that portrays her as a Complete Monster instead of a Knights Templar at worst?
The whole Batman universe is a Depending on the Writer scenario. However if the image in question is from any of the animated incarnations, I can pretty safely say no.
Argh.
So Word of Eddie came down upon the Complete Monster TRS thread cut the criteria, in effect broadened the description and locked it wish instructions to clean it up from there.
Now what? What counts and what doesn't? And who's going to do the work? And why do I have visions of Brony pointing and laughing?
I've quite frankly given up on this altogether and am praying for the day when we finally get enough consensus to cut the page. It's just not worth it anymore.
My thoughts exactly.
Well,I want to keep cleaning it up. Worst comes to worst, we thow in another Trope Repair Shop with the justification that Fast Eddies' verdict just made the problem worse, and force through stronger criteria.
So the question is, where to start? We'd probably make more headway if we all focused our efforts on a specific section and slowly worked our way through the issues. I'd rather not just ignore the problem. Best case scenario is we can clean up the pages and permalock them to stop people from adding in weak examples without taking it to hte forums.
EDIT: And I just checked out the Image links section. And sveral of them aren't doing anything evil. Is the bit at the top about them having to be doing something evil in the photo binding? If so we should do a massive cleanup of that section. Shouldn't take anywhere near as long though on account of it being a rather simple "are the doing something or just posing?" check.
edited 13th Nov '11 4:15:14 PM by Shaoken
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
In the other thread, many were saying that while there is validity to this trope, the name has its baggage stuck to it.
So, I think a rename needs to be part of the solution in order for this to work...
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
I don't want to get kicked off the wiki again, so I'll try not to beat it in anymore but the new criteria strangthens my resolve that a certain villain I think fits this trope indeed does.
but to show that I can more on to another topic, I'd also like to discuss Wayde from Voltron Force.
Yes, but a rename would cause a lot of redlinks, and coming up with an appropriate rename is going to take a long time. So let's just get to work on the trope now and play it by ear.
Towards that end, I suggest we review Tabletop games and Music, since both of them are pretty short.
I simplified the Complete Monster definition. If an example does not meet the new definition, cut it.
Arguing the merits of an example based on the defunct definition is not on.
edited 13th Nov '11 6:38:45 PM by FastEddie
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty