During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Yodoshi and Bores
Professor Gigachad
This is a bit different this time I am looking at an old candidate with new information.
What is the Work
The Injustice franchise is a DC Video Game franchise Nether Realm Studios. Where after the Joker tricks Superman into killing his wife and unborn child and destroying Metropolis Superman kills The Joker and turns into a Dictator. However, we will not be talking about any of that but the recently released Prequel webcomic Injustice: Year Zero.
Who is The Joker and What Has He Done?
After Batman leaves Gotham The Joker goes on a killing rampage killing several guards and prisoners to get out of Arkham. He breaks another inmate named Andre out of jail to get a supposed power of a god he talked about but he refuses to say anything. So the Joker threatens to kill his grandson after he was revealed to him, this causes Andrew to cooperate and tell The Joker everything.
He ends up teaming up with Black Manta to get the powerful object. After he does he ends up killing Andre and takes a Justice Society member Alan Scott. Throughout the rest of the story, he uses various means to kill every single one of the Justice Society members, as well as using his powers to force them to kill each other or themselves in Jay’s case.
He then attempts to blow up the hall of justice to kill the entire league but after a big battle he is eventually stopped loses his newly gained powers. However, Batman as he usually does refuses to kill him. The battle also gave Joker the idea to use Lois as a way of proving that he can be turned evil, which we all know how that will eventually turn out.
Does he have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Now it is mentioned that The Joker hates Nazis which is a reference to a team-up with Red Skull. Though this is not disqualifying nor was it ever. He only personally hates nazis and doesn’t have a problem with any of their methods or the fact that they are evil, it is shown best that he says he is not a traitorous bigot meaning he only hates Nazis because they are not like how he is despite the fact he is far worse than any Nazi. This is subverted when he nukes Metropolis pulling of a worse massacre than Hitler.
Other than that he has nothing even close he is taken seriously all his crimes are onscreen and he does not care about Harley, viewing her as nothing more than a pawn.
Does he meet the Heinousness Standard?
He meets it pretty easily he has killed many people killed the entire Justice Society and attempted to kill the entire Justice League and that is only in this story. In the Injustice universe, he also nuked Metropolis for the sole purpose of destroying Superman and turned him into a tyrant and the Big Bad of the series creating the events of the entire series.
Final Verdict?
Easy yes once again. Note I am not exactly proposing a different version of The Joker more of as a way to talk about him in this comic and rewrite his entry to include his new crimes for that.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
No offence, but Joker being disgusted upon learning Red Skull is a Nazi is literally the page image of Even Evil Has Standards. I think it is a redeeming factor. ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Edited by HighfalutinQuelea on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:05:12 AM
The wifi here sucks
That version of Joker is from a non-canon story set in a different universe, he doesn't count there but the mainline and many alternate versions do since they don't have standards.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
Did you guys not read anything other than the redeeming qualities section I am talking about his injustice version from a new comic, he has that possible prevention but I explained why it is not disqualifying there it is not as significant as the Red Skull crossover.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:11:15 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The Moron
Not that I'm inclined to downvote, but just to be safe, does he say why he supposedly hates Nazis? Cause if he just says it and then goes on to nuke Metropolis than yeah he's good, but if it's a reason that he doesn't contradict, like the "I'm an American criminal lunatic" mentioned above, then I get nervous.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Aight, first of all it was only one person, not "you guys", and second I'm just a little confused at what you said there. I just want any possible further elaboration. Like I said, it's Injustice Joker, I'm not inclined to downvote, I just want to be clear what you mean
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:09:48 PM
Professor Gigachad
No, he just says he hates Nazis, and the only reason he really implies is that they aren't exactly like him.
Sorry didn't notice.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:12:40 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
I was responding to the post above mine not the EP.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Rewrite away. And now, for my next Xena EP...
Dahak.
Who is Dahak?
A powerful and ancient god, one of the most primordial of all beings in creation who came to embody destruction and darkness, Dahak predates mortals, gods and even Titans, intending to overthrow the natural order and damn all things to neverending suffering and chaos. ...Dahak first tried to invade during the war with the Titans, but the Titans drove him out of creation, albeit at the cost of the war...
Dahak proceeded to tempt and taint as much as he could, poisoning the world with evil..countless cults were created and atrocities committed in Dahak's name. The prophet Zarathustra was one such man, who was almost tricked into killing his own family, but when he balked Dahak murdered his wife and kids, cursing Zarathustra to suffer eternally...this is pretty normal for him.
Now, Dahak first arrives in Xena through his cults, where he sets up a scheme so Xena's 'best friend' Gabrielle commits her first killing, allowing Dahak to manifest and rapes her in her sleep, impregnating her with his child. ...things get dark as Dahak's cults hunt for the baby, named Hope by Gabrielle who desperately believes the child can be good. Xena is less sure. Especially when Hope apparently murders a man as a baby. Xena tries to kill the baby, but Gabrielle lies and says she threw her off a cliff when in truth she sends her down the river in a basket...
Hope grows up quick, lured into further darkness by her monstrous father who has Hope breed a monster called the Destroyer, intending on using her to sow the world with a seed of monsters to wipe out most mankind and allow for Dahak's arrival. This is prevented when Hope and the Destroyer are killed.
In the Hercules side of things, Dahak is also causing mischief in Sumeria...in the battles, the family of Sumerian king Gilgamesh are killed and Dahak seduces Gilgamesh into becoming his follower....intending on 'cleaning' the world, and having Gilgamesh weaken all the gods. Dahak tries to have Gilgamesh sacrifice his sister Nebula, but the actual casualty is Hercules' beloved comrae Iolaus. ...while trying to corrupt Iolaus's soul. Dahak begins killing gods and mortal heroes alike...as the lord of Chaos, Dahak intends to trick Hercules into killing Iolaus, damning his soul and providing the end of the sacrfice so Dahak can destroy the world....Hercules is able to face Dahak as Dahak continues trying to corrupt Iolaus, but their bond is stronger and they force Dahak to manifest in his true form. In a final battle, Hercules throws Dahak down a fiery chasm, casting him from the world and either destroying him or banishing him to the void forevermore.
Heinousness?
Dahak is the standard of Herc and Xena, the most horrific and wide reaching villain. Dahak is a standard other evil gods aspire to, with countless acts of evil, sadism and cruelty either through his cults or by his own design. Dahak spends the entire series as the most twisted thing he can possibly be, and he's a rapist to boot which is quite rare. There's no argument Dahak doesn't hit the standard.
Mitigating issues?
Dahak is the god of destruction and darkness, who existed before mortals and gods...but no, no agency issues. Gods in Herc and Xena can choose on their natures. Dahak is a consummate sadist, not simply a force of chaos and destruction, who chooses to continue his acts and relishes in his appreciation for them. Beyond this, no. Dahak cares nothing for his child, his followers or anything but seeing the world annihilated and as much pain and suffering brought about as possible.
Conclusion?
And a big yes to Dahak.
The Moron
Um... I just looked up the panel at this article - his exact words are "I'm American. I fucking hate Nazis. I'm a homicidal maniac, not a traitorous bigot". That's close to identical to the incident described above (there are even multiple articles suggesting that this is a deliberate Mythology Gag), and it disqualified him there.
I may be tired and overthinking things, so I'm just gonna leave this here and see what other people think. For what it's worth, I do hope I'm overthinking things and it doesn't disqualify him, cause if it does, then we lose Injustice!Joker, and that'd be a huge loss and pain in the ass to repair
And yes to Dahak
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:21:33 PM
Professor Gigachad
I do understand the concern but the thing that convinces me it's not disqualifying is the "I'm a homicidal maniac, not a traitorous bigot" That states pretty clearly he only doesn't like nazis because they are not exactly like him he is a homicidal maniac while they are traitorous bigots. Also, he is hypocritical in this as well since he betrays several people before and after this event. It's not genuine standards its hypocritical subverted and twisted standards.
Compared to the Red Skull crossover comic where she shows disgust to Red Skull, and proclaims that he is something else.
The moment is a reference but the circumstances surrounding it are very different.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:26:00 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
yes to Dahak no to the Joker with the info Star posted.
Ordeaux explained that he just wants to do a rewrite.
Edited by papyru30 on Apr 19th 2021 at 11:26:27 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Yes to Dahak.
As for Joker, if that version if from a comic prequel to the main Injustice games, isn't that Joker the exact one that already counts in Injustice: Gods Among Us? I'm confused now. Are people downvoting and saying cut the already listed version?
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:27:31 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Professor Gigachad
Yes as I said that is the reason I am proposing him, to bring up this new comic and expand his writeup.
There was also the matter of his hatred for Nazis though As I said t doesn't seem to be genuine standards.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:28:05 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The Moron
Yes, it was a proposed expansion on the existing entry, but now we have an actual issue - if this Joker hates Nazis in the comic, and the comic is an official prequel, then that creates an issue of if the game version still counts
But again, the fact that he specifically calls them "traitorous bigots" seems to imply genuine disgust, especially if it's a Mythology Gag to that 90s comic we've mentioned before where it definitely was genuine.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:30:55 PM
Professor Gigachad
Though I have been trying to explain why that isn't disqualifying.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Meh..comics are stupid. I'm just gonna abstain on anything surrounding the Joker here.
Also, I really don't have much interest in Attack on Titan anymore. I'm not worried about Floch, I'll just agree with the general assessment.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The wifi here sucks
I should have clarified that I think this version should be cut if it is supposed to be the same character.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
Yes, he does call them "traitorous bigots" the problem is it makes him a Hypocrite since the Joker betrays multiple people.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:32:04 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
I'm reading it as he hates bigots especially since in context, he was telling a guy to hurry up his story so he can get to the "Nazi-killing" plus he's seem genuinely outraged at the implication that he would like the Nazis
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
I am not seeing it as disqualifying and I have read the comic, he claims that he doesn't like Nazis for being "traitorous bigots" despite the fact he is a traitor and has committed a massacre of an entire group of people worse than anything even Hitler ever did. But if you really think it is then fine.
Yes, it is a Mythology Gag to the comic but there are several things that are different he doesn't have a specific Nazi in Red Skull to be disgusted at, the reasons he gave for it instead of showing something he doesn't want to be was him saying something he actually is while claiming it is why he hates Nazis which only seems to be a Pragmatic dislike out of them not being exactly like him rather than genuine standards. And also he later Subverts these standards when he tries to kill the entire Justice Society and Justice League out of hatred and nukes metropolis.
We should judge this on its own not what it is based on when the circumstances are very different.
That would be Pragmatic Villainy, not Even Evil Has Standards.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 11:04:42 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The Moron
Except one of Joker’s signature things is that he’s indiscriminate in his killings. If he’s not bigoted about it, then he’s not a hypocrite about it. At this point, I may be in the minority once I wake up, but cut Injustice!Joker
The wifi here sucks
Ordeaux, where did that come from? Only one person has mentioned the old comic and they didn't even vote. I don't care about the old comic based on the panels I've seen from this comic I'm saying cut Joker, please don't put words in my mouth.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
That was more meant as a comparison to highlight that the situations are not the same sorry if that was confusing.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Edited by DrUnknown on Apr 19th 2021 at 9:14:53 AM