Fix: Even Evil Has Loved Ones

It seems to be limiting itself to specifically a henchman's loved one (i.e. never a Big Bad's) who is directly threatened either by the Big Bad's plans or the hero. These restrictions are certainly not being observed in many of the places I see this trope brought up; it certainly doesn't seem to be in the examples on that very page.

My question is, are these restrictions necessary?

They probably are, in the sense that if brough to the scope of main or important (villain) characters, it strongly overlaps with Even Evil Has Standards and Even Evil People Love Their Mommas. Besides, part of the concept of the trope is that the villain's boss dismisses the emotional attachment, more than the fact that the character is an henchman.

edited 25th Sep '10 9:56:58 PM by SilentReverence

Hmm, let me put it this way: are the restrictions worth having the obvious and probably numerous incidences of misuse that ignore or are ignorant of the restrictions, especially given that the trope description says it is only invoked when the henchman's boss puts said loved ones at risk?

edited 25th Sep '10 10:50:18 PM by Leaper

Examples of misuse?

You want examples? You got them!

From the first few search pages:

Clearly misused:

Neomorphs

Digimon RP

Legion

Pathfinder (character page)

The Omen (no explanation, so this is a guess, but I think it's a good one)

You Have Failed Me (lists it as a contrast, when really, according to Even Evil Has Loved Ones' definition, the two have nothing to do with each other)

Gone

Deathnote (character page)

DoctorWhoS31E09ColdBlood

The Shield

Fushigi Yuugi (the Loved Ones description calls for indirect killing of the loved one; the example here lists a direct attack - another restriction I'm skeptical about)

Redwall

Gangland

Airborn

Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds

Soul Nomad And The World Eaters (character page)

Sly Cooper (character page)

Whateley Universe

Possibly misused (usually due to no description, apart from maybe a character name):

Australia (maybe, given that he seems to be one of the major villains)

Berserk

Preacher (possible)

MONSTER (character page, probable - under the main antagonist, which alone specifically excludes him from the trope; he does not seem to be working for any other villain as far as I can tell)

Almost all, if not all, of these examples appear to treat the trope name as Exactly What It Says on the Tin, with a hint of Morality Pet. Moonraker was the only one I saw (literally, IIRC) that treated it correctly, and even then, the entry had no description, so I can't know for sure. I only say that given what I remember of the plot, and which definition ("right" or "wrong") is more likely to have appeared in the film.

Oh, and I don't see the overlap between Even Evil Has Standards and evil people having loved ones (as a general thing, not as defined by the trope of the same name).

Y'know, looking at it, seeing as how this is a 79% misuse rate at best, I'm starting to think this trope needs some kind of overhaul even more severe than what I imply in my topic. Any way to change said topic line to reflect that?

edited 16th Oct '10 9:11:47 PM by Leaper

Hmm, this reminds me of a YKTTW I had that I never followed up on - No Love for the Wicked.

I think that the "big boss threatens the loved ones of an underling" thing is a worthwhile trope, but the title is misleading. "Even Evil Has Loved Ones" is a very general statement, and sounds like it should include any work that shows an evil character who genuinely cares for someone else. Using it to describe a single, very specific situation involving the loved ones of a lower-ranked bad guy is just plain confusing.

Which is proven, IMO, by my search results.

Almost no one uses the current name in the correct context. If that's not reason for a rename (or at least an expansion of the current trope to encompass the things tropers think it's for), then I don't know what is.

(And if a mod could change my topic line to include possible rename, that'd be great kthxbye.)

ETA: Thanks, anonymous mod!

edited 17th Oct '10 7:51:47 PM by Leaper

Bumping this because an 80% misuse rate is something that shouldn't stand.

The main question here is, I think, whether the current trope should be renamed or expanded. And the way to approach that is, I think, to determine whether the "evil people have loved ones" trope really belongs under some other trope or not. As I said before, it feels wrong under Even Evil Has Standards.

Thoughts?

I just realized something: even the page quote on the main trope page is a complete misinterpretation of this trope!

Also, I used the Related To link on the main trope page. I did not find a single work or character page that clearly used this trope correctly.

ETA: Wow... There are examples within the page (like the Spy Kids one) that think that this trope is about evil people having loved ones!)

So I beg my fellow tropers to please help me out here!

edited 24th Oct '10 10:13:35 PM by Leaper

The Omen example, I have a feeling, is relating to the third film, "The Final Conflict," in which Damien orders his followers and subordinates to kill newborn babies (who he fears one of them may be Christ reborn), and one of his immediate subordinates just recently became a father and is a bit reluctant to say the least.

Edit: And looking back at the trope page, it appears the example being claimed to be misuse is actually explaining the exact same thing already.

That's the only one with no explanation that I can probably lend some clarity to.

edited 24th Oct '10 9:13:07 PM by SeanMurrayI

You're correct - I missed that; I think because I assumed The Omen was just for the first movie.

Okay, that's one or two correct uses out of thirty. Still pretty damn miserable.

I suggest the trope currently under this name move to something like Even Mooks Have Loved Ones (to clarify at least one key part of this trope), and we redefine this one as Exactly What It Says on the Tin (partly because, as I said, I don't see it falling under any current tropes, not even Even Evil Has Standards).

(The only problem with the above suggestion, of course, is getting examples. Any idea how to do that?)

The description just needs to be reworked slightly to expand the definition. It's far too restrictive as it is.

So you envision it would include both the current definition and any case of an evil person having someone they love/care about? That seems a little TOO expanded for just one trope...

Created my first crowner (yay!) - it's here, if that needs to be said.

Can a mod hook, please? And can a mod or non-mod suggest any possible actions I missed?

edited 26th Oct '10 8:25:56 PM by Leaper

Bumping to draw more attention to my crowner attachment request.

I'm really surprised there isn't more interest in this, given how huge the rate of misuse is. Then again, it is rather a minor trope. Still, leaving the misuse rate as it is bothers me, so here we go.

I've sent the mods a holler to get the crowner hooked. (See that set of buttons above your post? It's the exclamation point on the right. Use that to call the mods' attention to a post—say, to get a crowner hooked.)

Hooked. Thanks for the holler.

Double thanks from me too! I thought the report button was just for problems and spammers and stuff. :)

It's for that too; basically, you use it for anything that requires moderator attention of some sort. Anyway, we're getting off-topic; back to fixing the trope

Looks like there's pretty clear consensus. Is it good enough?

Also, looking through the current Even Evil Has Loved Ones, it seems most of the examples didn't read the actual &#*@% description and thought it meant "even evil people can love another," which is kind of annoying, and another big reason to proceed with this fix (and making it even more surprising to me that it stayed in this state this long, with everyone apparently thinking it was hunky dory). Do y'all think there are enough examples remaining that fit under the "new" trope to be created (Even Mooks Have Loved Ones) to start it up immediately with existing examples?

edited 13th Nov '10 11:30:39 PM by Leaper

• sigh* Okay, fine, I'm pulling another trigger. Three days, then I start moving/rewriting. :P

As the time ticks down, quick question: can anyone think of a better name for the "new" trope than Even Mooks Have Loved Ones?

Loyalty Or Loved One?

Mook Decision Time?

Evil Versus Family?

Dragon Decision? (Kinda bad, but tossing it out there.)

If no one comments, I'm gonna launch Even Mooks Have Loved Ones and just let someone else deal with it, because I know if I wait, I'll just see no replies for weeks on end. :P

sigh As I thought.

Even Mooks Have Loved Ones is launched, and I have a rough new intro for Even Evil Has Loved Ones. I could really use help with both - to index the former and for improvements to the new intro for the latter, including related tropes.

Oh, yeah, and wicks that WERE correct for the "old" Even Evil Has Loved Ones. I'll fix what I can, but I could use help.

And does either of these tropes have to go on the Renamed Tropes list?

edited 20th Nov '10 10:58:59 PM by Leaper