Complete Monster Cleanup

Speaking of the writeup, I noticed that the entry at Video Games: T to Z doesn't specify that it is about the original version of the game.

Will edge a keep to Sal.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Feb 2nd 2024 at 10:11:35 AM

Odd.

Yeah, the manga and reboot are different continuities; the original Sal is fine.

I noticed alot of examples that were never approved by the thread are being added to the former Complete Monster sandbox, like Mr. Krabs, we should remove them, right?

I think those were there before the cleanup thread was even established. I heard Mr Krabs was listed as CM before alongside some non sapient lions and random stormtroopers.

I suppose if we go by the text on top of the page we remove them, but I'm opposed to that personally.

RE: Mr-ex777

Yeah they were added to the YMMV pages of various works before the thread was set up and were never approved.

The description of the sandbox indicates we don't list characters that were never approved by the thread which is why I ask.

By that logic Johan or Koba should not be listed then. The CM thread voted these guys off but it's very clear that they weren't voted in and were decided to be keeps before it even started.

Edited by Critica7 on Feb 13th 2024 at 3:52:26 PM

I think the thing with Doffy is that his relationships are always him giving sweet words to encourage people to die for him. He's a puppet master in more ways than one. If he seems like he cares about you, he actually likes the fact that he's using you.

Law notes how he pushes people to die for him regardless of how close they are to him, and Doffy doesn't deny it.

So his "genuine" connection with Vergo might just be him pushing people to die for him again, giving him assurance for his goal.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Feb 3rd 2024 at 3:41:48 AM

Double post.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Feb 3rd 2024 at 3:39:23 AM

RE: Mr-ex777

Johan and Koba were in-fact voted in/voted to be kept when the threads came along from what I remember.

I believe their disqualifying features from tie-in novels weren't noted until recently.

I feel the issue with the others like Mr. Krabs, Van Zant and the "evil hot tub" from American Dad is that they were never going to be approved with obvious disqualifying qualities from the beginning.

Edited by Monsund on Feb 3rd 2024 at 3:43:38 AM

Yes, but there was never an effortpost. The thread simply decided that they were easy keeps. Emphasis on "were". I thought you need an effortpost to go there, but at this point it seems like you don't.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Feb 3rd 2024 at 8:12:00 PM

RE: Mr-ex777

There may not have been an effort post for Koba and Johan Liebert, but the thread summarized what those characters did, their heinousness and whether or not they had redeeming qualities.

This is different from Mr. Krabs, Tomoo, Van Zant, Evil Hot tub, Debbie Jellinsky and many others, whom were immediately disqualified as soon as the threads noticed they were added.

Thats why I personally feel examples like Johan and Koba can stay, whilst the ones I mentioned can be cut from the sandbox.

I'd at least keep Van Zant, as that's not as obvious as the others.

The Vergo thing isn’t mittgating espically when you remember he is forcing him to sit in the first place

Also the wrongOne is correct on why it doesn’t hold

Edited by YorkobeShounen on Feb 3rd 2024 at 5:11:03 AM

RE: ACW

Ok, if he's been mentioned more than once.

Still all the others I mentioned are clearly too comedic, have notable redeeming qualities or very obviously don't even come close to the heinous standard.

An effort post is not a requirement Ex, it's common practice but what should be clear is that there were extended discussions about both Koba and Johan they kept through. A brief "Mr. Krabs shouldn't be here" is pretty clearly a different situation, I don't think bloating the page with him or "Stormtrooper #12" constitute a productive use of that page.

Also Critaca 7 I recommend you wait until you finish Dressossa to come to a conclusion on Doflmaingo because it is made clear there why is relationship with others are not redeeming

Yeah, I think that Johan and Koba were put up pre-thread but discussed in a way that makes it acceptable to say they were "approved by the thread" in a way Mr. Krabs never was

Cut out Cinder and Zokan. Okay, I also have my own surprise candidate. Well, with God, let's go.

• Blood Knights:Countess Blood Fox is a literally bloodthirsty Vampire Monarch who unleashed her werewolf army upon Godskeep, slaughtering the population to take over control and gleefully leaving a trail of corpses and dismembered limbs to have heroes Jeremy and Alyssa Lured into a Trap. Far more sadistic than other members of her kind, wiping out human populations not for food but for her pleasure, Blood Fox proves her ruthlessness when eventually confronted; the arena is filled with impaled, still-alive civilians whose blood she will periodically drain to intimidate the heroes.

The first and main problem is that her worst crime, the massacre of an entire village and the murder of thousands of civilians.....simply is not in the game. That is, yes, we see the corpses of the guards and their remains, we see that they were pierced... but no civilians. Even during the battle, all the people who are pierced and whose life force is taken by the Bloody Fox for treatment are purely soldiers. No civilians and certainly no massacre of an entire village/city. And especially not thousands. I have no idea where Robert got this from. Her actions boil down to the fact that she hunts civilians of the city of Godskip, Sir Andrei, along with his soldiers, tries to catch her in revenge, she sends her werewolves to kill them and tries to kill Jeremy and Alice. All. Not a hint about the massacre or the killing of thousands of civilians.

And yes, about the village, or rather about their ruins. There aren't any either. Well, yes, as soon as the heroes meet the werewolves for the first time, we see one abandoned house, but it’s just a house. And no corpses of civilians. And yes, her hunt for civilians is completely off-screen. We don't even get any details. When she started hunting, how long she hunted, how many she killed, how and so on. She could well have killed 3 residents and that was it. And what's funny? After her capture, it turned out that almost all the inhabitants left the city when the moon was split due to the theft of the Blood Seal. It can be assumed that she was hunting before the Seal was stolen, but there is no evidence or facts. She may claim that she will hunt to the last, but given how few people are left... her words simply have no weight.

Another problem is that her actions are not given much importance. I personally had to carefully study the corpses to understand that they were all just security guards, and not any civilians. No attention to the “ruins”, no special attention even to her killing civilians. Again, we don’t get any description. Well, besides the simple fact at the beginning of the chapter, Jeremy asks her when she was caught, did she show mercy to the civilians she killed, but that's all. And of course, there is no attention to the massacre of the “village” itself, since it does not exist in any form. Do you know what's ironic? Literally after her capture, in the next chapter at the beginning we see a burned village. And although there are no corpses of civilians or anything like that to confirm that anyone died there, this burned village is given much more attention than any of the Blood Fox's crimes. In this regard, she resembles Chet Whippleton III from Tonight We Riot. But he had crimes, the problem is that the game did not pay enough attention to them. The Fox doesn't even have her worst crime. Yes, when Jeremy and Alice arrive in the forest, we see a dying and impaled soldier, and Jeremy says that people are dying in front of his eyes and they must stop the Fox. But it’s just still very little and just general, “she’s killing, she’s bad, go stop her.”

Another problem is that she doesn't stand out as the worst of the vampires and that the game itself and the characters don't treat her as a terrible, vile, irredeemable monster. The CM, if they are members of the species, members of factions or organizations, must be the worst in it. The thing is, Blood Fox is treated like a standard vampire. When Jeremy and Alice encounter her, how does Alice comment on her “worst” crime? “Bloody Fox. Leave the villagers alone and we can go our separate ways without bloodshed.” There is no horror, no fear, disgust or hatred. Even when she's caught and Jeremy asks if she showed mercy to the civilians she killed, it's just a standard "oh, oh, you did bad" judgment rather than pure hatred, fear, horror or disgust. It seems like that , that she is treated like a CM? Personally, I think not even close. And honestly, even skewering people is not unique to her. At the beginning of the game, when Jeremy storms the ruins overrun by vampires and after he himself became a vampire, we already we see soldiers pierced and which can be used to restore life. And there are pierced people throughout the entire game. And it seems that vampires in this game often do this. Which only further undermines Fox's evil.

Oh and another fact that she isn't treated like a monster? Jeremy can free her calmly and easily and no one will scold him for it. Although Sir Andrei's wife Sonya (from whom we learn that almost all the residents have left) will say that she is not sure whether she should trust Jeremy and Alice if they help Lisa escape, this once again emphasizes that she is not being treated like a CM. Compare this to if you free Mannimarco from The Elder Scrolls Online, where he outright says that the player will regret freeing him, and the companions judge, scold, and express disappointment in the player for freeing Mannimarco. It’s the same with Vaughan from Dragon Age Origins, where again the companions at least scold the player and condemn him for freeing a monstrous rapist. In both of these moments, the game heavily emphasizes how much wrong you've freed and what terrible people you've freed. The huge difference is clearly visible here. There is nothing even close to the Bloody Fox. The other vampires also seem to treat her quite well, without hatred, contempt or anything else.

Vampire-nun Roya will be very warm towards Jeremy and Alice if they save the Bloody Fox. Which could very well hint that Fox has good relationships with other vampires. And yes, the game treats her as a standard vampire, without making her stand out from her species for the worse. The only thing that makes her stand out, and it’s quite a bit, is that she kills out of sadism, and not out of food. But this is very little. Well, Andrey, as soon as he ties her to a wooden cross, where he plans to burn her, says that she will finally get what she deserves and that she is vile. And yes, Jeremy also has the option that she deserves it and that she belongs in hell. But again, that's what you'd expect people to say to an evil witch and it still doesn't make her stand out as being much worse than other vampires.

And the last problem? Once she is caught, she begins to beg Jeremy to save her. Like, “I can’t die like this, I’m afraid to die by burning, what will happen next and Jeremy, you are my only hope, show me mercy.” But if Jeremy asks her if she thought about mercy for the civilians who died from her hands, suddenly, the Fox, rather gloomily, will say that she didn’t think and now understands. She promises that if Jeremy lets her go, she will never lay a finger on a person again and that she will eat spiders, snails, rats. At the same time, she seems more sincere in her words. And what if you let her go? She will sound truly grateful. Specifically her words in the game? ,,I'm grateful. After all, you are one of us. I will tell others about this." And how sincere she sounds about it.... Of course, Jeremy doesn’t need to be told, and if you ask her again, she will say that she will never forget Jeremy’s kindness. And okay, you could brush it off, that they say she just begs and behaves well in order to survive.

But then in Chapter 5, when Jeremy and Alice meet Roya and enter her hideout, she sees their faces well and quite warmly says that she understands that in front of her are those who saved the Bloody Fox from the aspen stake.... And here I have no words. Blood Fox is famous among vampires, considering how well Alice knows her. And her death would become known to the vampires and who helped catch her. It’s clear how Roya would have known about Jeremy and Alice’s involvement in the death of Bloody Fox. But if she were rescued, no one would know that Jeremy and Alice saved her, except for the Fox herself. It's just one sentence, but I think it's clear that Blood Fox kept her promise and told the other vampires about Jeremy's kindness. Which explains why Roya is more willing to help them. There is no selfish gain for the Fox here. She wouldn’t meet them again in the game anyway; she had no benefit from telling others about her saviors. Bloody Fox apparently informed the others so that they would not be aggressive or try to kill Jeremy, but on the contrary, would help him. I'm not going to dismiss the very possible "Pet the Dog." Roya had no way of knowing that Jeremy and Alice were the ones who saved Bloody Fox unless the Fox herself told them. And although if Roya finds out that Jeremy and Alice helped kill Lisa, she will say this in a rather cold tone. And although this is one sentence and still does not affect anything, the fact remains a fact. The fox kept her promise, although it would not have given her any benefit.

Only Alice and Fox knew that Jeremy saved Bloody Fox. Alice was obviously with Jeremy. Other vampires might have guessed that the Fox had been saved, but they simply could not know who it was. Unless they are telepaths. (Heavy sigh of disappointment). At first I wondered if I was missing her crimes, maybe I wasn’t playing carefully, maybe I didn’t understand something. I wasn't sure about cutting she out. But having completed the game and watched its chapter more than once or twice? Solid cut. There are too many mitigating qualities here and the final nail in the coffin for Bloody Fox as CM? Medea, who is just a succubus (while Bloody Fox is a powerful witch with an entire army of werewolves), is much worse than her. And yes, unlike the Fox, she really is as bad as Robert described her. Killing all the soldiers of Castle Pikehold and turning them into your undead army? Luring other soldiers to be devoured and impaled? Everything is there and the game is without diminishing it. Medea is just a random succubus superior to the Fox in everything from body count to sadism and cruelty. This is no longer within any limits.

Sorry for saying a lot, but Bloody Fox turned out to have quite a few problems, each of which needed detailed information and explanation. This is so strange. In the proposal and review she is one character, but in the game itself she is completely different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubjs0co-Uls&list=PLJw500QNRAdDYTv4y_x9tm8b1ChlmdyRv&index=3 9:55 begins Chapter 3, where at the beginning the merchant talks about the Fox hunting civilians. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc_GK11KtdM&list=PLJw500QNRAdDYTv4y_x9tm8b1ChlmdyRv&index=4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNHJ0NhkZcg&list=PLJw500QNRAdDYTv4y_x9tm8b1ChlmdyRv&index=5 Both episodes cover the entirety of Chapter 3. Look at her crimes for yourself. Maybe you will see this massacre of a village and thousands of civilians killed. Personally, I didn't find it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHvNcfFHaFQ&list=PLJw500QNRAdDYTv4y_x9tm8b1ChlmdyRv&index=6 1:03 dialogue begins with the tied Bloody Fox. Moreover, the player also chooses the option to save her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyr62CLCMA&list=PLJw500QNRAdDYTv4y_x9tm8b1ChlmdyRv&index=7 4:54 The dialogue with Roya begins and the first sentence is dedicated to saving the Bloody Fox.

Phew, this is perhaps the most difficult CM removal for me. I didn't expect so many mitigating factors. And in principle, I did not expect that I would have to offer Fox for removal. If any of you are upset about Bloody Fox being cut, let reassure you that there is another villain in the game who completely lacks all of Bloody Fox's problems and has a good chance of passing the classification. Tomorrow afternoon I will propose to him. Those who remember Bloody Fox's proposal well will guess who I'm talking about.

Yeah, that seems like a cut.

Is Medea still a keeper? (EDIT: Yes. Missed that.)

Edited by ACW on Feb 4th 2024 at 4:42:58 AM

Cut Blood Fox

Cut Cinder Fall and Blood Fox. I hate to bring it up again but are we absolutely 100% CERTAIN Frieza's nanny isn't mitigating? I guess we could put Frieza on the "wait and see" to see what he does to said nanny but would this cut all Friezas if it was?

Edited by Klavice on Feb 3rd 2024 at 4:08:00 AM

I mean if he outright said that he had no one he cared about when he was making a wish that would destroy all existence, would lean towards that being a "no."