Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Being honest, that does give me a concern for Tiberiu. He's referencing Frank in very real pain over the desecration of his family's bodies and given that's the parallel he's drawing between them I'm not sure I can take that to mean his wife was just something that belonged to him. I presume that's the only time he shows anything remotely redeeming and idk if we wanna just say it's too undercooked to really go anywhere with but it's certainly making me pause.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"I presume that's the only time he shows anything remotely redeeming"
Been awhile since I've read the comic, but IIRC that's correct.
And then Ravok and I may have to discuss Cavella; there are a couple of things THERE that give me pause (the Pet the Dog on his character page; also a scene where he's weirdly affable and tells a fellow Mafioso to call him Nicky instead of Mr. Cavella).
Rawlins and Barracuda though are rock-solid keepers. No worries there.
Edited by ACW on Jan 1st 2024 at 7:19:10 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
RIP Toriyama
Yeah I've no idea myself now that I've been reminded of the line's existence, I wish I could say it's just a "matter of pride" for Tiberiu but he doesn't actually say that, just notes "If someone did that to your (Cristu) mother's grave, I'd kill thousands.", and while he doesn't bring it up again, it's absolutely a line that's hard to write off. I guess we could say since he slips it in while gushing over how much his Blood Knight personality appreciates Frank's viciousness, he's just admiring the bloodshed, but it's still pretty oddly specific. Here's the exact scene, for full disclosure:
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Like, honestly, I could go either way. But for someone usually as Ax-Crazy as Tiberiu to mention that...
(And Ravok, I edited my post; Cavella also has a few things.)
Edited by ACW on Jan 1st 2024 at 7:21:08 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Cut Henry and yeah I'm for waiting. I definitely for waiting to see what else to do with Flayer / Vecna etc. The franchise is kind of amusingly retcon-happy at this point(To remind everyone, Henry's existence was already a retcon to the Mind Flayer). So holding out on what to do next is best.
The First man
I'll largely leave it for the thread—and thank you for the exact panel Rav—but he's even referencing his ongoing feud with Frank, so it's not even like he's championing the guy before they start fighting, he's drawing a parallel to Frank's rage at the desecration of his family's remains and how he'd feel if the same was done to his wife. He delivers it in a very bloodthirsty manner but I'm having trouble saying that's just a Blood Knight moment.
I'll hear out the Pet the Dog thing but ACW... he lets someone call him Nicky? I think we're stretching a bit here on what constitutes a redeeming quality.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Not the Eye
I am gonna go with cut for Tiberiu. Guy is absolutely vile, but as minor as that moment is, sounds like he does care about his wife. If he said something like “I can understand somebody who hates his property being trifled with” I would be okay, but for no reason going “yeah can understand going on killing spree because his family‘s grave was desecrated” while giving his own example.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jan 1st 2024 at 4:36:39 AM
Woagh
Cut Tiberu.
On Nicky, from what i can tell he's constantly trying to make himself look like this suave, layered crook when he's just a depraved asshole, so from that it sounds like he's trying to make himself look good in front of his men.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I mean, maybe? But I'm not sure.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not familiar with the work but this is how the Pet the Dog entry is written:
He orders Ink to spare the life of a potential elderly witness. Saying that "the poor old prick probably fought in a war or sumthin'." There was no tactical reason for doing this and leaving the old man alive could only be detrimental, so it's quite possibly the only time we ever get to see Nicky do something genuinely altruistic. Well... as much as "don't kill that person" can be considered as such.
The entry says that he orders a potential witness to be spared even though he could incriminate them. That does sound pretty concerning, so I would like a bit more discussion on it and whether there is any evidence he is doing it to just look good.
Also, cut Vecna and Tiberu
Edited by WatTambor on Jan 1st 2024 at 3:58:01 PM
RIP Toriyama
Here's the full sequence with Nicky's "Pet the Dog", btw. I'm unsure myself, it's a random aside moment but he not only lets the witness go but hands him money.
-
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Goku Black
Uh dunno I kinda get the idea he's bribing the guy to stay quiet from this. Or at least trying to.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 1st 2024 at 5:10:19 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
But there's no reason he couldn't just kill him. Wouldn't be the worst thing he's done (at all ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
).
Goku Black
Uh I dunno maybe if their were more but like as is. This just looks pragmatic to me. Aka he didn't want to make too much of a mess.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, maybe, but Nicky's not the type to usually worry about that. 🤷♂️
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
RIP Toriyama
Yeah that's the weird thing, Nicky...doesn't care about racking up a bodycount or being outrageous in random murders. He'll kill people in broad daylight because he feels he can get away with it thanks to his mob power. He literally defiles the graves of Frank Castle's family, pisses on the remains and ensures it's all aired on live TV with his smug mug visible. So I don't think this is really just a case of trying to silence a witness, because if Nicky's only motive was truly wanting the guy to be silent, he'd just kill him as he does many other people.
If we want to chalk it up as a random whim cuz he's in a rush that's cool with me and I'm kind of inclined to agree, it just does come off as a bit unique for Nicky to not only spare someone, but hand him cash and tell his minions "poor prick probably fought in a war." Which is why it's an odd one I'm unsure on. But I do lean Keep all things considered, I think.
Edited by Ravok on Jan 1st 2024 at 5:21:52 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Personally I’d lean on calling it a random whim myself.
Woagh
Leaning keep on Nicky.
So has this entry from The Island (2005) approved? The guy sounds bad but i can't find the write-up on the main page:
- Complete Monster: Dr. Bernard Merrick is at first charming and helpful. He has the clones under his care dissected alive when he views the need as arising, and lies by telling them they'll be sent to the mysterious "Island", while lying to the clones' original source by claiming the clones are brain dead and are not living, sapient beings. When one clone's original donor is already dead, Merrick spitefully plans to have her harvested anyways, and tries to kill any clone that resists him. Drunk on his own genius and power, Merrick seems to view himself as some sort of twisted messiah.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 1st 2024 at 6:40:31 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Showtime!
Yeah, he's on Monster.Film H To I
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to cutting Henry Creel/Vecna based on what's revealed in the play, though it seems strange to me that they'd just retcon what was established in Season 4 regarding his relationship to the Mind Flayer so soon. I'm guessing that means the Mind Flayer could get re-uploaded depending on how Season 5 goes, but until Season 5 airs it's a good idea to wait.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Sorry. I've been waiting to comment on the matter and vote on what should be done ever since the play first premiered, but I was busy when the discourse on the topic was happening earlier today. I'll rephrase my post, if you're opposed to further discourse on the matter, but denying me the chance to comment or vote at all is unfair and honestly a bit hurtful.
Edited by Arawn999 on Jan 1st 2024 at 8:49:26 AM
The Moron
We've established that. At this point it's off-topic.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If you want to edit in a vote after I comment so that I look unreasonable then go right ahead, but at the time of my comment, the only thing I was "denying" you was the chance to go off-topic and talk about things that we've already moved on from and are better discussed in an OTC thread for the show itself, not the chance to vote or discuss the matter at all. Please don't say that I'm doing something to you that I am clearly not doing.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 2nd 2024 at 12:03:35 PM
Cut Henry