Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Here's something I found in YMMV.Puss In Boots The Last Wish.
- Complete Monster: "Big" Jack Horner is a childishly sadistic pie factory owner and crime boss who dreams of achieving the power of the Wishing Star so that he can use all the world's magic to make himself ruler. Once a young entertainer before turning to crime out of jealousy, Jack is a collector of various magical objects he stole, including baby unicorn horns. Hiring the Serpent Sisters to retrieve him the map to the Wishing Star, while uninterested in the amount of people they had to kill to acquire it, Jack uses the Midas Touch to turn one of them into gold after growing annoyed of them. Packing up his belongings and bringing his Baker's Dozen to chase after Puss and Kitty after they steal the map, Jack relentlessly and carelessly sacrifices all of his men on his journey to the Star, even acting apathetic when he accidentally kills some during a firefight. Ultimately reveling in his villainy, Jack passes off any attempts at redemption or kindness to achieve his goals, remaining one of the cruelest people encountered by Puss and friends.
Lizzid people!
We actually had an extensive discussion on Horner on the proposal thread. For the most part, it led to the consensus that he was played seriously enough.
That was indeed the reason for a long debate.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Keep Jack
IPP Wick Check created.
Keep Jack.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Yeah we had a long talk on Jack before.
The First man
The Emperor of Evil!
Keep Jack.
Yes we had a long debate regarding Jack. Keep him
Yeah, having seen the film now?
I'm...really not in favor of Jack. Setting even aside his being played for a big joke, his actions amount to abusing and killing his own men? Like, it's really not that much. He's nasty and selfish, but I expect more from a complete monster. Even his death is played for macabre humor.
Lizzid people!
I mean there was also him turning one of the Serpent Sisters into gold for mocking him. I can see your concerns, but I don't really agree.
That's still a pretty low count in regards to villainy and nastiness, especially given who else occupies the same universe. Even Farquaad was ready to send just as many, if not more people to their deaths with plenty nastiness
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I really can't see the comparison. Farquaad has a line about how the winner will be sent to save the princess and if they fail their replacement will be sent instead "and so on and so forth". Essentially it would only be one risking at a time and any has the chance to succeed, and each of them know the risks involved. And Shreck arrives before any could actually go on this mission. Jack, by contrast, directly or indirectly kills like a dozen of his men while laughing it off. In addition to killing the serpentine sister and burning a bunch of living flowers.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
He intended to send one, and then send another and then another if the first one failed. Nowhere near as extreme as Jack as said above.
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 28th 2023 at 9:10:03 AM
The First man
The Emperor of Evil!
Also Farquaad wasn't a Bad Boss (at least not as much as Jack was) who sends his subordinates to die from what I recall.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ah, forgot about that one, still I argue Jack was worse in terms of abuse in my opinion.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Feb 28th 2023 at 12:09:52 PM
I wasn't here for the initial discussion, but yeah, mark me as someone not in favor of Jack. Having a comedic villain is absolutely fine, but when the reason he breaches the heinous standard are the actions that in of themselves are Played for Laughs? I'm against keeping him.
Lizzid people!
Now I mean if you are comparing what Farquaad had done that is different. But even then, the film makes it clear that Jack getting all the magic is an inherently bad thing.
Edited by AustinDR on Feb 28th 2023 at 9:15:17 AM
Not seeing how Jack passes even the basic standard. His whole set of evil deeds is that he's a terrible boss and kills or gets his men killed. Putting it simply, I don't find this impressive and don't think he passes baseline.
And "vague bad thing" doesn't net you a spot on the list. Jack isn't planning mass murder or genocide that can in any way be confirmed. All of Jack is played for dark laughs, and Farquaad literally has a joke about his intent to send every man he has at the dragon with "some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make!"
I think Jack has the personality, but the deeds just aren't hitting it.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 28th 2023 at 9:22:43 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I guess i just done agree, I think getting over a dozen killed is handily over the baseline. Especially with little things sprinkled in along the way. Plus there looked like a lot of flowers in the Forrest with the living plants.
And again, Farquaad was only going to send one man, then send more if that guy failed. With each man fully knowing the potential risks.
The First man
The Emperor of Evil!
Eh, agree to disagree on terms of Jack's deeds, I too thinks he's bad enough to pass the baseline heinous standards.
Yeah, and Farquaad was going to send a lot. A lot, a lot. That's the point: he's prepared to get loads of people killed. Doing it 'once at a time' doesn't really change that.
Killing your own henchmen, without some serious flourishes to it, and I mean serious levels of flourishes to the level of Sicks from Neuro is bog standard villainy. We've spent years chasing that stuff off the list. Jack isn't mutilating them, torturing them, etc. he's tossing them to generic disney villain deaths. There is a huge difference between murdering civilians and henchmen.
Furthermore, the flower thing is played for dark laughs. It's not something I'm inclined to take too seriously on a rapsheet.
Woagh
Ok, as someone who absolutely loves Jack, honestly I'm going with cut. I could go either way on heniousness, but the dude's supposed to be a over-the-top comedic parody of the trope who serves as comic relief for the film. His whole thing is that he's so much of a terrible boss that it's absolutely hilarious, even if most of the characters are disgusted by him.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 28th 2023 at 9:30:02 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Gonna be honest, I'm also a cut for Jack.
The Ultimate Lifeform
Yeah... Cut Jack. Good catch in calling for his relitigation!
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I guess number just affects it for me? Killing a henchmen or 2 for bringing you bad news or something. Killing like a dozen of them? Is bad enough even if they are henchmen.
The First man
I'm not really as opposed to that argument. If the film was more serious, I'd agree. But when it's really kind of a grin, a wink, and a nod as part of a big joke with a villain intentionally going so far as to invoke comedy?
There're other parody villains I think showcase a contrast in how they're treated....Xykon is one of my favorite examples of a comedic work CM who has multiple moments of being played for bone-chilling horror. Even J Ack's death is played for a joke
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 28th 2023 at 9:38:07 AM
Cut Rat and the Reporter.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Thulsa Doom's rewrite.
I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine