So You Want To... Clean up a namespace?

The "tropes to be careful with" folder is excessively long. Do we need to document every single trope that may clash with a CM?

That's another part where I'm thinking the length itself isn't necessarily the problem (if a trope may clash with CM, then it may clash with CM) but the fact that it's that long does make me thing there's probably shoehorning we could cut down on

I guess my concern is that at a certain point listing every sympathetic or questionable trope feels too much. It could always be done as broader categories of what to avoid with tropes mentioned in the paragraph. Many cover the same ground and stuff could be condensed for readability, assuming most of it isn't outright shoehorned.

yea, and again, large amounts of that section are written from the perspective of So You Want To Get A Character On The TV Tropes Complete Monster Page? Instead of "how to write a particularly evil villain". Lots of talk of qualifying/disqualifying and "evidence in the work"

Edited by Tremmor19 on Feb 5th 2024 at 2:13:24 PM

Yeah, I almost wonder if the page discussing CM specifically is part of the problem. Would anything really change if it was "write an evil villain"?

Tbh. I think that night be a better idea

Same with changing the mb page to mastermind villain.

It would also be useful to people off site.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 5th 2024 at 11:15:55 AM

oh, that's a good idea. Would probably help keep the focus on the writing rather than the CM/MB thread qualifications

and

You hit the nail on the head there! I'm guessing we could still keep the page images, though?

Are we going to cut away the examples part for the MB page too?

x5 and x4:

That does sound loads better.

I would vastly prefer if it was how to write a mastermind Noble Demon (or however we want tho phrase that) and how to write a truly evil villain. We could even keep the art

Yeah, no reason to remove the art. But if we distance from the specific tropes we can make pages that are a lot more generally useful. CM and MB can still be namedropped as our versions of these concepts without framing them as the focus.

Plus I'm aware that the CM page at least has some info that has become outdated, and this will also help us to avoid needing constant updates.

I am still going to miss the examples on the CM page. Oh well, if it's better for this site then I will go ahead with it.

I'm fine renaming the CM page, but personally I'd rather not name the MB page, largely because we're not the only site that uses the term. Plus, unlike CM (which can be summarized as "really bad villain"), MB is a fairly specific archetype that can't really be nailed down any way (even the hypothetical example of "diabolical Noble Demon isn't really accurate, given that there is sometimes overlap with Complete Monster like Hans Gruber). I have no concerns renaming the CM page but I really don't see the point with the MB page when that page actually is about how to create a fairly complex character archetype.

That's fair, honestly I don't know enough about MB to know if it even needs cleanup.

Just taking a glimpse at the page, the MB page looks fine to me, minus getting rid of a few of those parenthetical examples.

So, what should we rename Write a Complete Monster? I was thinking "Write a Pure Evil Villain" — if that doesn't overlap with the Pure Evil Wiki's name and definition for Complete Monster.

Yeah, that's just begging for VW interference. I have no real ideas to be honest but unless we want to invite more issues, we cannot go with any variation on "Pure Evil".

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 5th 2024 at 8:43:40 AM

Otherwise we'll see a "...Write a Near Pure Evil Villain" page pop up.

But yeah, I say just "evil villain" or something.

But just about any villain is an "evil villain" — that's why they're villains, after all. Perhaps "Irredeemably Evil Villain" would work instead?

Iredeemable Villain, Nasty Villain, or even just "good villain" (as in, well written, not morally good lol)

I feel like those names don't quite capture the spirit of Complete Monster, and "Good Villain" also kind of creeps into badge of honor territory. Maybe "(Irredeemably) Heinous Villain" (if it doesn't overlap with the Inconsistently Heinous Wiki) or "(Irredeemably) Vile Villain" would work better?

I like irredeemably vile villain. I also think if we want to provide tips, shifting the focus on how to make sure it's not cartoonish or shock-schlock might be more useful as writing tips

Yeah, I thought "Irredeemably Vile Villain" was the best of my suggestions. I can agree to those writing tips, as well.

So, regarding the MB page, what examples in specific should we get rid of? I'm personally fine with reducing the number of these (And I'm the first to admit that I may have gone a bit too far with the examples part). I personally think that the CM page can still have a very restricted number of examples too, what do you think?