Creators with alternating pronouns

A spinoff of this thread, so we can decide upon a formal standard. When creators use multiple sets of pronouns, should we stick to one set across the entire page, or allow alternation within examples, or allow one set per example but alternation across the page?

I personally think it's okay to use one pronoun set per example, but that you can use the other pronouns in other examples. I would recommend going off of American and Commonwealth Spellings, where any valid pronoun can be used, but it's first-come-first-serve so we don't have to fight over which set is "better" to use.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I don't mind sticking with one pronoun per page for consistency, but what's used should be decided ahead of time either by consensus (if needed) or first-come-first-served rules. My biggest issue with the page linked on ATT wasn't that the standard was decided, but that the person did it unilaterally and changed the pronouns to match, which is the opposite of how it should work.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

We added the original note on Conlang Critic (which was copied over to jan Misali when the page was split) so you can presumably guess our opinion on the subject.

We vaguely recall some previous discussion on the matter concluding that switching pronouns within a single example was definitely unnecessarily confusing, though we don't remember where that conversation might've taken place.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

This one?

Yeah, that change felt disrespectful and spiteful. My stance? I think it should be per example instead of per page, just to make it both easy for tropers and respectful of those with multiple pronouns.

My only concern with that is while you can have notes on the work pages, crosswicked examples could confuse people if they see multiple examples with inconsistent pronouns and don't realize that's intentional.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Discouraging people from using multiple sets of pronouns for somebody who uses multiple sets of pronouns just feels kinda disrespectful. I think one can glean from context when "they" refers to the person in one example even if they use "he" in another example, especially if we note on the page that they use "he/they" pronouns.

Hence why I'd rather do "first-come first-serve" than get into edit wars over what the "better" set of pronouns would be to use. I could see an argument that just using "he" or just using "they" would be erasure, for example.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 4th 2022 at 2:52:45 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Oh, sure. That's why I was specifically talking about off-page examples; I can just see edit wars breaking out thanks to editors being confused about the situation. It might not happen, it's just a possibility.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Also worth noting that I checked Noelle Stevenson since he's the first creator I remembered who also has this going on. Their bio uses three kinds of pronouns, even within the same sentence, but the context tracks well enough to me.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I'm going to vote for first-come-first-serve, assuming we can establish their pronouns.

For reference, another ATT query where multiple pronouns were brought up. The discussion there was mostly in favour of first-come-first serve, consistent within examples but alternating on page.

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob

Do we have enough consensus to revert the edits mentioned here, or should we wait for a crowner?

<wrong thread, please ignore>

Edited by SilverCrown on Mar 5th 2022 at 6:05:03 PM

I disagree. My basic policy is that there's nothing wrong with sticking to one set of pronouns unless the person discussed has actually said not to do so. Otherwise it quickly devolves into performative stuff.

I do get where you're coming from, but my issue is that it's not our place to put words into somebody's mouth. It's not our place to say "Using only one set of pronouns per page is disrespectful to this person" when the person in question has never expressed any problem at all with that. Personally, I'd suggest that if we want to use both sets, then we use "he" pronouns for one work page and "they" for the other work page. That way, we're using both sets but staying consistent.

(On a side note, I want to stress to anybody using multiple pronoun sets who's reading this: Please give actual instructions for how people are supposed to do it. Can they stick to one set all the time, and if not then how often are they supposed to switch between the two sets... I'm sorry to be blunt, but this discussion, which has been going on for days, is a good example of why making other people figure out this kind of stuff for you is a form of labor that the people in question never asked for.)

Edited by MichaelKatsuro on Mar 5th 2022 at 6:46:14 AM

I have nothing against people choosing their own pronouns per se, but it does get a little ridiculous when, as noted above, they don't give any clear instructions. I'd also prefer not to have to read a style guide before talking about a person. Are we going to start using weird Unicode characters now?

"I prefer to be addressed as Ӝ and Ֆ, but only on alternate Tuesdays." Fuck off with this performative shit. Ironically, it trivializes the genuine struggles of people to be recognized as their preferred gender.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 5th 2022 at 10:06:24 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

People who use multiple sets of pronouns do often get very upset when they notice people only using one set (especially when the set is she/her or he/him versus neopronouns or they/them). They have chosen to use multiple pronouns, not give people multiple choices. There's a difference.

I think as long as it's clear who the pronoun is referring to, it would be best not to change them for "consistency" or whatever.

It is not "trivializing" for people who are typically nonbinary to be referred to how they wish to be referred to, and that's a really awful take along the lines of telling bisexual people they're the reason gay and lesbian people face oppression.

Edited by Eiryu on Mar 5th 2022 at 1:33:55 PM

...Mate, most people who use multiple pronouns are trans, what's with the weird strawmanning? It's really not complicated in practice. This has "attack helicopter meme" energy and I don't love it.

No nonbinary person I know has specific rules about which pronouns to use, other than "you can use either when you talk about me." I just don't like the notion that one set of correct pronouns be considered the "only" correct set on the wiki. Because I do see people get uncomfortable when someone specifically avoids one set of pronouns.

Honestly I'm pushing for the rule to basically be "use whichever correct pronouns in your entry and don't mess with other correct pronouns on the page." Which is the option that requires the least maintenance, and probably the option that would alienate the fewest people. If all the entries happen to use "he" first, that's fine, as long as people don't forcibly change the pronouns just because they think the person is better referred to by another set.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 5th 2022 at 2:47:06 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Look, if the ask is, "You may use any of these to refer to me," that's fine. If the ask is, "You must rotate between 'he', 'she', and 'they' in every sentence," the answer is no.

Call it a strawman if you like; there is a thin, grey area between respecting a person's identity and being expected to consult a manual to talk to them.

First come, first served is a perfectly adequate rule when referring to someone who has not expressed any specific preference or who allows themselves to be referred to by multiple pronouns.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 5th 2022 at 2:53:22 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

You're still making a strawman, Fighteer. No one says you have to alternate in each sentence, or in every sentence, or any specific percentage of use. The ask is to use all of these to refer a person at various times. No one is telling you when and how specifically to use them, unless they aren't out or something.

I really do think it should just be left alone as long as the pronouns are correct in each entry.

Edited by Eiryu on Mar 5th 2022 at 1:53:36 PM

Exactly. This is fine. It's only a problem if people start arguing about the "correct" way to do it.

As for this "refer to me with all of these pronouns"... human brains are not linguistically structured to do this.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 5th 2022 at 2:55:40 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Yeah, nobody I've ever met has ever said shit like that. People in this thread are asking nonbinary people to give specific rules, which I agree is silly. But why get mad at nonbinary people, who aren't asking anything beyond "you can use any of these pronouns for me"?

EDIT: Should clarify that the only times I hear rules for alternate pronouns are "I only feel comfortable if my friends call me these pronouns, not strangers" but they're usually quite upfront about that. Nobody's gonna be cryptic if they want you to use pronouns in a certain way, because trans/nonbinary people are not out to confuse you.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 5th 2022 at 3:08:32 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I think the concern for everyone is that by only using one set of the pronouns that's erasure, but at the same time we don't know what the creators would actually "prefer" we do in this case, which is why people brought up the "rules" in the first place. It's a battle of being inoffensive but also not obsessing over the percieved "correct" way to do it for every individual person.

I'm still a bit concerned that using multiple pronouns can make people confused if they come across them on trope pages (and don't know the context), but it's probably not a realistic fear and if we go with first-come-first-served rules I'm cool with it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Using either set feels best because then we're not assuming anything about the creator's preferences.

I think the confusion can be easily solved by simply noting their pronouns in their bio.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 5th 2022 at 3:06:58 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Regardless of what is eventually decided, it feels unnecessarily aggressive for one troper to change the note to say "let's use he because that's what I want", and I really don't want the note to remain on the page with that wording.

Yeah, that's more or less what I was thinking as well. I am aware that there are nonbinary folks who prefer binary pronouns, but if they use both binary and gender-neutral ones and don't indicate a preference, an editor unilaterally saying "'he' is better" definitely feels... shifty, to say the least.

Edited by bowserbros on Mar 5th 2022 at 2:37:19 AM

Be kind.