Marvel's Hawkeye

I already think it’s funny how Kate’s extreme fangirling of Clint didn’t last much beyond actually interacting with him

I'm kind of glad. It's interesting for Clint to see him uncomfortable with someone looking up to him, but it is truer to the comics to have Kate think Clint is a disappointment. It's nice to see a transformative story where Kate challenges what Hawkeye is.

I thought this is how it would go when people complained that the press material and trailers made Kate out to be such a fangirl

In the comics she respects the hell out of him and was initially in awe. Familiarity bred comfort at telling him he’s a garbage fire

Pym Tech getting focus in the last episode made me wish think that the stinger for this show is a Young Avengers setup (since lbr, MCU Clint is kinda running out of story beats anyway). They're out of sizeshifting arrows, Hank's blocked Clint's number, Kate contacts the Ant-fam, Kathryn Newton gets another entry in her filmography, profit???

You raised an interesting question of what does Clint do after this mini series? It seems like after this he should be allowed to actually retire and be Kate's supporting character.

It really does depend on what they do about his time as Ronin. Him getting to just walk away and live a happy retired life with his family would be somewhat out of synch with the current situation, it seems to me.

On the other hand, I don't think they should (or would) kill him off so it will be interesting to see how they play it out.

Show Kate is definitely still an ardent adorer of Hawkeye, even now. That's what her whole speech about being a role model was about. She sees him as the biggest inspiration in her life, and has no plans to stop, even if he doesn't.

She's just not fangirling any more, because now she knows him as a person. But her opinion of him has not changed. She's only gone from fangirl to Sarcastic Devotee.

I too think they're setting up Kate having to make some tough realizations when it comes out that Clint was also Ronin, but that means they also need to actually start giving Kate context about who Ronin was. All Kate knows about Ronin so far is that he was a ninja who killed a bunch of criminals and made so many enemies that just looking like Ronin makes one a target. But that's not significantly different from what she understands about Hawkeye himself. Hell, Kate herself has killed criminals as of the most recent episode. All Clint is willing to tell her is that he intends to protect Ronin's identity and anyone caught up in Ronin's baggage, which makes Ronin sound better than he was.

So at some point someone - and if they do it, it's probably going to be Echo for maximum drama - needs to sit Kate down and tell her the awful truth that Ronin was a serial killer.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 5th 2021 at 1:30:31 AM

Gotta say the whataboutisms about the Tracksuit Mafia are really weird. Like, these are guys who, when they're "trying to keep a low-profile" are out on the streets chasing and threatening girls and planning arson. Maya's father was "upper management" of an organized crime ring that had been operating for at least a decade and was growing. Granted we don't know exactly what the "bad stuff" was, we know Uncle was willing to do "anything" to grow. Generally, when discussing mobsters willing to do anything and big enough to be targeted by Ronin, that "anything" probably is incredibly unsavory. Both as Ronin and as Hawkeye Barton has... seen some shit.

And sorry to be an echo-chamber, but the show clearly isn't glorifying his run as Ronin. You could say Clint is trying to hide from his past but he's doing it by... well, fighting it. He's clearly not happy about his time as Ronin but he's not ignoring the negative fallout that's happened from it and trying to make sure no one else is hurt because of it.

Also also, really hope Clint killed Maya's father. Just because him being falsely accused of not one, but two murders in this series and thus being pursued by their female Badass Normal next-of-kin (the other being the whole thing with Natasha set up in Black Widow) is just... weird. Like, from a storytelling standpoint it's sloppy.

At first I thought they were going to do some sort of fake out regarding Ronin killing Echo's dad. But Clint knew exactly what had gone down, so now I'm guessing he really did it.

I am curious how Yelena is going to fit in now, halfway over and there's still plenty to cover without diverting to have an episode (at least mostly) about Yelena's mission to kill Clint.

Given the relatively low stakes of the show so far, I'm been assuming Yelena is going to be a spanner in the works out of nowhere right as Clint & Kate are on the cusp of getting everything wrapped up neatly.

Yelena's upcoming appearance is kind of a wild card now, since the role you'd think she would be having given the end of Black Widow has already been taken by Echo.

For all we know, she's going to show up, and it'll turn out that she didn't believe Contessa and wants to help. And then, for all we know, that could turn out to be MGS style deception and she's actual manipulating them all for some espionage reason. Etc. Could be pretty much anything at this point.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 7th 2021 at 1:02:20 AM

They’re just gonna keep introducing folks who want Clint dead. He’ll beat Thanos for the sheer number of “how many people did I personally offend in the last five years?”

I'm pretty sure Clint killed Echo's father:

• There isn't any indication so far he hasn't.

• It's in-character for Ronin to kill someone like Echo's father.
  • In fact, part of the problem is that even if it turned he didn't kill Echo's father, he almost certainly killed someone like Echo's Father.

• While murdering Echo's father was wrong, it's not crossing the Moral Event Horizon either, so no reason to say he didn't. Echo's father was a high-ranking member of an organized crime ring. He didn't deserve to die, but he wasn't an innocent victim.

Its also pretty on par for Central Theme that Hawkeye has severe issues with his legacy. He is a wildly popular well-loved figure that is secretly carrying Mangst for the fact that he knows it is based on the lie he's more than an assassin with lots of red in his ledger.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 7th 2021 at 8:54:38 AM

I'm a bit surprised "Clint wasn't the Ronin who killed Echo's dad" is gettting to be such a big theory, tbh. It's not like the show introduced any mystery about someone else wearing the Ronin suit while Clint was active as Ronin - they've made very clear that Ronin, and everything Ronin did, is Clint's business.

Yeah. Once I actually re-watched the episode and saw him doing it, I realized there's no mystery here.

It's just like with Wanda Vision and FATWS:

Wanda caused the Hex, and Sharon is the Power Broker.

There's no secret twist here: Clint did it, and Maya should want him dead.

The real question is how he gets out of the mess he's in now.

I agree with Protagonist.

I do still think it's possible that there could be some kind of twist where Hawkeye spared William (or at least didn't take the time to finish him off) and he was killed by someone else presumably the Kingpin, who I actually think might appear, especially since the front organization for the criminals refers to a "Fat Man".

However, not only is this not that logical, I think it would be a disservice to the characters for the reason Protagonist mentions.

I remember in Endgame, Clint said something to the effect that he was killing criminals, because he felt it was unfair that they were alive and his family wasn't.

And even if Clint didn't think of it this way, in effect, he was taking away other people's loved ones to cope with the lose of his own. So, it's thematically appropriate that he'd be confronted by someone whose loved one he killed.

Edit - Also, as someone mentioned above, it seems like bad writing to have Maya's desire to kill Clint be based on a misunderstanding, because Yelena's desire to kill Clint is already based on a misunderstanding.

Lastly, I have the sense that there's some kind of twist with Kate's dad. And two twists with dead fathers seems like one too many.

Edited by Hodor2 on Dec 7th 2021 at 8:02:36 AM

Given that Eleanor has ties to Madame Masque in the comics, it seems a fair bet that they might merge the two characters together in this series.

It's not like the MCU's last take on Madame Masque had anything in common with the character, after all.

That said, I would love if instead of the typical Kate's mom / dad was evil and betrayed the other, leading to dad's death (as in the comics), the two of them were a Happily Married Evil Couple, and Eleanor simply maintains the family business.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 7th 2021 at 8:25:20 AM

Honestly, even though it seems like the more popular theory is that Eleanor took the opportunity to murder him in the chaos of the Chitauri Invasion, I lean more towards your reading.

Not only would it be kind of unique, but it would obviously fit with Eleanor's comments about him waiting for opportunities to fall from the sky.

Also, as a random note, I love how Swordsman is such a cliched evil rich guy out of a soap opera. And not necessarily a current soap opera either.

Edited by Hodor2 on Dec 7th 2021 at 8:43:29 AM

That's definitely the MCU's best triple threat match since Daredevil/Kingping/Bullseye.

Anyone else getting retired spy vibes from Laura?

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Dec 8th 2021 at 10:20:42 AM

Episode 4 was quite the ride. Definitely a small breather but lots of details clearly setting up for the grand finale.

Elanor and Jack are 100% involved in something. Then again Socialite involvement in criminal affairs isn't a new trope.

The way that Kate found out that her hero was Roinn, I like how it was handled, she was disappointed and upset but accepted rather than walk out. Helps that he is generally remorseful about it. They have clearly developed a strong relationship.

Helps she was helping him enjoy the holidays.

Quite possible that Maya might bring Clint's family to him.

And long hoped for Yelena has appeared and established herself as a major threat by shrugging off both Maya and Kate.

Also was there a mug saying 'Thanos was right' isn't that kind of like having a mug saying 'Hitler was right' in Isreal?

I wonder what the deal is with the Rolex watch. The fact that Maya wanted to get her hands on it would make me think it's connected to Ronin, but Kate already figured out that Clint was Ronin so if the watch was just something that could link Clint to Ronin then Clint would have no reason to be dodgy about it with her.

Yeah. The watch is interesting, especially since they haven't stated who it belonged to.

The watch might be Stark's (remember he used a watch to hold an Iron Man Gauntlet).

I'm more curious as to how Maya learned about Clint's family, but then I remembered that Maya told her buddy to find out about him, and also, his records might be more public post Sokovia Accords and due to his fame.

But yeah, shit just got very real. Maya now has Clint's family targeted, Yelena has joined the conflict, and we still don't know who the Tracksuits, Kate's mom, and Jack are working for.

Man, I went to school with the woman who plays Wendy the cop and it's surreal seeing her talking to Hawkeye.