Needs Help: Queer Media

I was under the assumption that they were pitching a broader related index, which would allow Queer Media to be its own genre thing.

Yeah, I get the feel that the majority plan is:

1. Make Queerness In Media, snowcloning other Works by Subject indexes.
2. Make Queer Media a Sub-index of Queerness In Media, where... I guess we allow Coded and Ambiguous?

...

Or something? Because that list means that Queerness In Media is actually the broader of the two.

...

Do we have anything to Snowclone Queer Media from? Black Media? Mexican Media?

I need a refresher myself perhaps. Goodnight!

Edited by Malady on Sep 11th 2021 at 9:03:46 AM

I guess that's also an option. I would say that "strongly-subtextually" doesn't work for plot relevance because subtext would be at the level of theme, not plot. It also seems to leave toto much room for example where the fact that they're queer affects a thematic reading of the work, which could be true for anything.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Sep 11th 2021 at 12:05:18 PM

Speaking of African-American Media, something both Queer Media and the various "[ethnicity] media" indexes seem to be doing is listing Music/ works by creators who are [X demographic]. And I get to an extent why they're doing that, it's about cataloging [X] culture* — but it's at odds with how the indexes are defined.

* For example, I've considered where a page on the African-American folklore of Brer Rabbit could be indexed. It wouldn't fit on an index of works about African-Americans, since the characters are animals.

Br'er Rabbit would belong on African-American Media, I would just add a sentence about the origins of the stories. I would've added it myself, but I didn't even think we had a page for Br'er Rabbit.

I'm in favor of something amongst the lines of LGBT Representation in Media index along with Queer Media and just narrow that down.

"This would be for works that prominently feature queer characters where their identity is relevant to the plot, either contextually or strongly-subtextually."

This is indeed what I'd propose. Some time ago, I saw Metal Gear Solid 3 categorized in Wikipedia within "LGBT-related video games" even though whatever LGBT content it has bears zero relevance to the plot (and I never noticed them at all when playing the game myself). We'd have a very bloated list of works if the criteria were too broad.

But such a bloated list is exactly what's being proposed in the "LGBT Representation" index.

I still don't think that works as an index because it's not a type of work, it's all works that share one very specific element. Honestly it sounds more like a trope than an index.

The African-American Media index is weird to me because every other time I've heard someone use the phrase, for example "African American literature", they use it to mean works by black American writers, but that page applies the term to works by white writers that star black characters.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Sep 19th 2021 at 1:26:12 PM

I admit that's seriously troubling me if it's what tropers are majoritarily voting for. If a movie has a gay character who only appears for 3 minutes, would that be already enough for the movie to be categorized as LGBT Representation?

With such a prospect, it's a miracle that South Park isn't listed in Queer Media (yet The Mitchells vs. The Machines is, despite the queerness of the protagonist having zero relevance to the plot). This is a big Mind Screw to me, to be honest.

The LGBT Rep in Media index is something we could flesh out in TLP — see if the general audiences agrees that it's too broad, or see if they think it has some merit. (I'd still rather have one for specific identities in media i.e. Transgender Works but again, that's something I can see having mixed results.)

What we need now is to narrow down Queer Media.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 12th 2021 at 3:12:49 PM

Well, the problem is that the other thread did decide to have Transgender Works it is not something we "may or may not make".

x5"This would be for works that prominently feature queer characters where their identity is relevant to the plot, either contextually or strongly-subtextually."

I like this. And then from there, we can list what wouldn't be considered Queer Media and then figure out what to do with a LGBT Related/Representation Media index.

Re: African-American Media, I proposed the index awhile back, I don't remember any specific inquiries about white-created works with black characters, other than they should be featured anyway (only of they are a main, central character). Maybe Media Featuring African Americans would've been a better name, shrug. It's not really a problem in any case, a overwhelming majority of the media listed there is accurate to the trope inex description, unlike Queer Media.

Edited by MegaJ on Sep 12th 2021 at 12:36:19 PM

And that makes sense, but it's not how the index is defined. So if we agree that it should be on there, then the definition needs to be changed.

Same goes for the other ethnicity indexes and Queer Media. If the scopes are going to be changed from their current definitions^note for the ethnicity indexes, they are currently limited to people. Queer Media's is broader, since it currently allows for "themes and relationships", that needs to be worked out.

Edited by Twiddler on Sep 12th 2021 at 11:31:10 AM

Bump. While I think there's some discussion on how broad we should make the index, I think we definitely have an idea on what not to include:

• "Queer Media would not include media that do feature queer characters in central roles, but their queerness or their queer experiences are not part of the Central Themes. Basically, if you can describe the show's premise without mentioning the character's queerness once, then it would not belong in this index (the exception being media featuring a Non-Heteronormative Society or settings as they are meant to feature queer people having the freedom to embrace their identities).

And then stuff like The Last of Us Part II or Brooklyn Nine-Nine we can take to the discussion pages as they have LGBT main characters, but the stories aren't entirely focused on that.

Edited by MegaJ on Sep 24th 2021 at 12:25:52 PM

I very much support that proposed constraint. This would also kick out works like Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts, The Mitchells vs. The Machines, and The Loud House.

Cleanup thread might be more thorough and reach more people than the discussion page.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 24th 2021 at 4:32:06 AM

The last part feels like it's carving out a very weird exception. A lot of stories with a Non-Heteronormative Society aren't doing it for that purpose. I’m worried that the reason this exception exists is just to include She-Ra and the Princesses of Power because people feel instinctively that it should be on the index, even though it doesn't meet the criteria most people seem to agree on, so this loophole gets made just for it (I find this particularly weird because the fact that it's an Non-Heteronormative Society is not a central or even very important part of She-ra's worldbuilding, in fact it's not even stated directly, just implied).

This isn’t so much about She-ra, there were a couple of examples earlier upthread that were brought up including some talk about the Non-Heteronormative Society and if it should be Queer Media. Could add that in those cases, the main characters would still have to be queer.

Edited by MegaJ on Sep 25th 2021 at 6:24:17 AM

Even leaving that aside, what is the logic in making this weird exception to the definition? "Stories where queerness is a Central Theme" makes sense. Tacking on "and also stories set in a Non-Heteronormative Society that star queer characters", which is something completely different, doesn't.

I have to agree. Queer Media makes more sense as just 'media about being queer/being queer is a central theme'. Queerness In Media, Queer Representation In Media or LGBT Representation in Media could be a broader index that covers works with queer main characters whose stories don't revolve around that.

I would suggest that if you set a work in a non-heteronormative world where most (if not all) of the major characters are denizens of the ol' alphabet soup, it may not be easily separable from from works that address the queer experience more directly. It's entirely possible for the theme of queerness to be inescapable without necessarily being the linchpin of the entire work.

Sometimes I wonder if "all works where L/G/B/T is materially relevant to the story" is a better proposal than the hairsplitting that folks are attempting here.

I would agree — that's what I would expect if I saw the term "Queer Media".

What counts as materially relevant though? Does any work with a gay relationship count, like She-Ra? Any work with a trans protagonist, like Neo-Kosmos?

Sorry, but I have no idea who these people are.

She-Ra and the Princesses of Power's main characters are Adora and Catra, and it does take place in a non-heteronormative society, and the two characters are queer/lesbian and the story revolves around their relationship in some part, for context.