Note: The thread currently has a limit of one post every two hours for non-mod users. Currently, this is hard-coded by the admins, but there are plans to give mods the ability to toggle it without admin intervention. After mods are given the ability to do that, the time limit may be further reduced or removed entirely.
This thread is for discussing the following topics:
- Questions and clarifications about the site's rules and policies pertaining to wiki editing, forum posting, trope launching, and so on.
- If you have an idea for a thread on another part of the forums but aren't sure if creating it would be allowed, feel free to ask here.
This thread is not for any of the following:
- Reporting complaints or concerns about specific moderation decisions (e.g. suspensions and thumps). Report these directly to the admins via the contact form
. Selecting "The Staff" sends your message to the admins only, without making it visible to moderators.
- Queries about thumps applied to your own forum posts (reply to the relevant moderator via PM).
- Ban appeals (use the "Edit Banned" thread in this forum).
- Reporting problems or requesting moderator action in the wiki or forums (use Ask The Tropers or Hollersnote or specialized threads such as "Locked Pages").
- Queries about locked On-Topic Conversations (OTC) threads or banned discussion topics. OTC has its own moderation discussion thread here, and the latest statement on the locked US Politics thread and other banned OTC topics is here. Bluntly, when certain OTC threads and topics have repeatedly caused problems, we're not going to provide forum space to discuss them again until the moderation toolkit is equipped to handle those conversations.
- Cut List challenges and queries (they have their own thread here).
- Requests for changes to the site's code or discussion about such changes', as mods cannot change the code; only the admins can do that. Please direct tech requests to Query Bugs or Query Wishlist, and take other tech-related discussion to the Changelog thread.
- Crowner actions. Please use the holler function instead.
- Discussion about changing or implementing policies. Please use Wiki Talk for that. (Asking whether it's OK to make a specific thread is acceptable; using this thread in place of such a thread is not.)
- Asking about the whereabouts of inactive mods (or other inactive users) before they return, if they return at all. Use the Absent people thread for discussing inactive users.
Posts that use this thread in place of the sections listed in the bulleted list above are off-topic.
We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)
Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 10:55:20 AM
Redmess
That is a problem, yes. The Sinfest pages are full of complaining, for example.
Optimism is a duty.
Again, there’s a big problem with a mod is deriding people against Holocaust denial as a ‘mob’ against ‘perceived moral wrong’ and is then their response leaves plenty to be desired.
Like I don’t see why we need to divorce authorial intent from the work when it’s solely intended as nothing but straight propaganda. Like, do we need to present Victoria wholly neutrally?
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 25th 2022 at 1:56:40 AM
The law in the night
I wouldn't be against works containing aboherent content, but the Trope page needs to be very, very and much very clear that the content is aboherent and the TVT page merely lists the tropes contained on that work, while highlighting how absurd, hateful and aboherent the work is.
Since Sinfest was mentioned, it also has an issue that started pretty light and fun with an ongoing story, to devolve into a bunch of misogynist and anti-feminist ramblings from the author. Which is unlike Stonetoss whose works mainly consisted of "haha the punchline is dumb liburls and racism! laugh!", it would be pretty hard to make an extensive list that doesn't include mostly racial stereotypes, memes or caricatures of people Stonetoss hates.
Inter arma enim silent leges
The Draftsman of Doom
I think that if we aren't allowed to call RL people villains, even if they have committed the worst kind of atrocities, it's completely hypocritical of us to allow material whose sole and blatant purpose is to promote prejudice on the site to be troped at all. Admittedly, Sinfest blurs those lines, having started out as a legitimate work before becoming prejudice-fest.
That said, when it comes to Hate-Works, I see no point of playing neutral if the author doesn't even pretend not to promote prejudice.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 25th 2022 at 6:16:45 AM
Feels good, don't it?
What I get from this so far:
If work tries to hide the nasty stuff or doesn't outright say it has nasty stuff, we can't trope it without calling it out, which means we shouldn't trope it at all.
If the work doesn't try to hide it and openly admits it, wether it be via Word of God or some other way, we can trope it and call it out.
Am I correct? I feel like every post is just saying the same thing in a different way, sometimes just a little more specific.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Just trying to end the rambling about how pages should be handled, and go back to the main issue.
Edited by CardboardBot on Dec 25th 2022 at 2:19:17 PM
As Septimus' last post hinted, discussion on how to handle work pages is more of a Wiki Talk matter.
The issue of what is and isn't OK to trope is off-topic and a Wiki Talk matter, yeah. The main topic for this that spun off this discussion is the question of mod accountability and what to do about a mod expressing an opinion that can be interpreted as them accusing a large group of people oversensitive for ruling the work as hateful when most people find the hateful message in the work pretty unambiguous, and thus how it can be difficult to holler posts for naked bigotry if this is how the moderators will react.
Redmess
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm not following you. We don't call RL people villains because that term only applies to fictional characters. Using tropes like that with real people also tends to reduce them to caricatures. To call Hitler a villain, for example, could be seen to reduce him to a one dimensional comic book character (for example), which is not what we want to do.
Sinfest, however, is a fictional work, so in principle it should be fine to trope it. But we can't trope its creator, Tats.
We can discuss it elsewhere if someone wants to provide a link.
Edited by Redmess on Dec 25th 2022 at 12:27:12 PM
Optimism is a duty.
The discussion on troping bigoted works can be continued in this thread.
Yeah, I'd like to turn back to the mod staff and whats to be expected/how it's handled for here at least.
Maverick Hunter.
So, to summarize, this are the pending things to work out between the mods and the troper body:
- Crazy Samaritan's statement and what they really meant with it.
- What are the rules behind P Ms? Is venting at all permitted on this site or not? And when and for what reasons should Mods read them to begin with? In other words, the rules behind P Ms both from a troper's point of view, as well as from a Mod's point of view.
Am I right with those points? Is anything else missing?.
A procrastination in of itself
We are still waiting on a formal mod team statement about Fighteer’s time away. Something he himself said we should expect to get some time soon.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
This is Fighteer's statement. Does anything else need clarifying?
A procrastination in of itself
Fighteer said
So I was expecting some kind of follow up and formal mod team decision.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
he/him
In some ways, that seems more relevant as and when Fighteer comes back.
Meito Anizawa, Anime Tenchou
It would still be good to know exactly what they've decided on before he comes back, considering it was mentioned several times they've been internally discussing Fighteer's case, and that statement makes it seem like the break was something Fighteer decided on himself and the mod team has more to say
Edited by Zanreo on Dec 26th 2022 at 12:03:53 PM
"Leftover items still have value!"
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
I will say that this:
Is definitely a sign that he understands what the problem is. Lots of arguments involving Fighteer are because of him putting words in other people's mouths and assuming they have some personal agenda that he's annoyed by.
The incident that comes to my mind is in the MCU thread, people were just casually discussing what they'd like to see get adapted from the comics, and he instantly assumed people were complaining and saying that MCU movies and shows are terrible because they're different from the comics, when not a single person said that.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 26th 2022 at 4:20:42 AM
Agreed with the above, more transparency has been a very punctuated request from us non-mods and I would too appreciate a formal statement, as well as more discussion on the topic of moderators making statements perceived as almost protective of works purposefully pushing bigoted views.
Figure of Hourai
Yeah, it would be good to know what's going on and if there's anything beyond 'he took a break and that should cover it'. Maybe it will help, sure, but OTOH it feels just like kicking the can down the road.
Avatar Source
Yes, there is more that needs clarifying. Because that response is not helping the perception that the mod team refuses to clarify anything. It's now days after we asked about the PM questions with no response whatsoever, and no clarity.
Is Fighteer still going to be a mod? Is the only punishment for being a toxic, bigoted bully for years a voluntarily break? The mods haven't said a thing about this at all. Is there anything about or from Crazy? Because his response was really not great after the "perceived moral wrong" comment when talking about Holocaust denial.
I don't think wanting clarity and accountability is a bad thing. But there's nothing but silence. After we were told "It's not remotely true we're shielding him."
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 26th 2022 at 8:46:20 AM
Meito Anizawa, Anime Tenchou
Yeah, him taking a break for an undecided amount of time is one thing, but we'd like clarification on what's gonna happen after that, when he gets back - will he stay a mod or be demodded? (...Unless the break is the thing that the mods decided on, but again, his post made it seem otherwise) If you haven't fully decided and discussed the situation yet (hey, I get it, busy holiday season and all), that's fine too, all we're asking for is some clarification.
"Leftover items still have value!"
the Retromancer
I just think they're still discussing it, as 1. It's holidays and not all mods may have been able to provide input 2. It has to be brought to the company who may also not be available now. This isn't like a namespace deprecation, I don't think it's going to be settled within a week it's brought up.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
That's not really the message I get from SeptimusHeap's post. That seems to regard to matter as closed with Fighteer's statement. Or at least unsure of what needs clarifying.
Fighteer said he would "abide by the decision of the mod team," so it's in their hands, not his. He then said he was taking a leave of absence and the mod team would put out a broader statement. Now, no issue in waiting to when, but now Septimus is implying the matter is closed.
So we have no idea. Hence asking for answers.
I mean, yeah, I kind of agree with laculus/Iaculus (I can never tell which one it's supposed to be): from a pure site-rules stance, it does kind of bug me that we're relaxing our neutrality policy to allow free-reign bashing of hate speech works. I am 100 percent on board with having that as an exception - if anything one thing that bugs me about Victoria in particular is that we haven't gone far enough in stamping out the tone set by the page's equally odious creator - but it is a very glaring inconsistency.
(I've talked more than once before about how I actually have this same problem with the various pages for legitimately crappy works that were created only because they attracted a disproportionate hatedom, but that's obviously a much less serious issue given the lack of real-world impact of somebody's bad fanfic.)