Unreleased Work Policy Feedback

Pros and cons, I suppose. I've said my piece on the matter, I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.

Me too. While I see some drawbacks with the citation system, I am glad that we have a system. Maybe we'll come up with something better, but if not, I can live with it.

This makes me wonder: if we do source, would bulleted lists look like this?

• Oh, Crap!:
  • ^Source Final trailer
  • ^Source Final trailer

Source:

*OhCrap:
**[[labelnote:Source]]Final trailer[[/labelnote]]
**[[labelnote:Source]]Final trailer[[/labelnote]]

And yes, I am doing this to show a bug in the code (clicking the second note only opens the first one since they're functionally identical). We'll need to cite even more than just "in the trailer" if we do this. This code is sensitive to spacing, though.

That issue aside, I like the label note idea as well, as it meets the requirements for citation but avoids the concern of repetition that comes across as redundant. I imagine in execution it will be a mix of in-text citation and a note.

Hey, did we ever come to consensus if troping works that got a preview screening before their official release was okay or not?

No consensus was met.

Namely, we haven't figured out the best solution to making sure we can figure out where the preview came from(as well as what kind it is. Though I'm not sure if we need to overly talk about if it's a demo or a pre-release? I dunno? Maybe?). Once we got an idea of how to handle that, it's easier to vote.

IMO, preview screenings (for films and the like) are a no-go. Not publicly accessible.

Can't things occasionally change after preview screenings, too?

It's been known to happen. Clerks had a scene cut out of its ending after its first preview screening that massively changes the film.

A thought occurred to me recently about the citations. The current policy calls for them on the work page until the work releases, but some prerelease information makes its way to trope page examples too. Would the source need to be cited there as well? And if it does, would we really be able to enforce that effectively?

Yes, it's required, and yes, it's enforceable.

Apparently we're still discussing what counts as a "public release"...

What counts as "easy enough to trope" is a fair point.

The problem with some general releases in public, like a semi-private screening, is getting the data is near impossible. Stuff like trailers, or a full gameplay video, or even a full version of clips on the internet can be workable.

Like, there's nothing wrong with using an earlier screening as data. Problem is it's way harder to verify than easier to find items. So I can understand the issue with using it. Waiting a bit longer in that case makes sense. I mean, we don't expect people to put up incorrect entries(besides problems like ZCE examples), though. Mind you, if we use releases like this, they shouldn't fall under the same thing as "trailers", as citing doesn't work.

It's also fair to wait for the regular public release instead of a private preview screening as it's way easier for us to trope it. Both are valid methods.

For the record, if someone legitimately sees the film in an early screening, I have no problem with them troping it.

What I have a problem with is folks who haven't seen the film using the fact that it's technically received a release to treat their speculation as fact.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 18th 2019 at 4:56:56 AM

Again, that's a standard that's nigh-impossible to enforce. As long as they aren't using it as an excuse to shoehorn in their speculation tropes, I don't see the big issue.

Though like I said, early screenings aren't always how the final product looks.

Which standard you mean, Warjay? Mine or High Crate's?

I'm more than willing to discuss my points, of course. I'm just bringing them up somewhat broadly to get to the heart of the issue faster.

I completely agree that there's no reason to attempt to enforce whether the person saw it in person or not.

Preview screenings are a problem as you said. They tend to have different things. That's not even including things like unique DVD releases that have previous scenes, etc. Maybe we need a bullet list to go over these scenarios and take them one by one for the rules. :)

Sorry, I was referring to HighCrate's post.

Ah, okay.

It also helps that speculative troping can be easily figured out by its words alone. As people often word things like a WMG'ing when they're speculating(it's hardly a perfect way to figure 'em out, though). We'd still be removing ZCE's anyway.

Now, as for private screenings, I do think it's a little harder to trope them. It's severely unlikely to get actual clips outside of pirated ones. And I feel using that content is sketchy. Waiting for the regular public release(doesn't matter what country it's in) should be enough. Either A) somebody here actually tropes it or B) we have movie clips to go off of. (As we don't exactly have gameplay trailers to use in this kind of situation).

Edited by Irene on Aug 18th 2019 at 7:13:10 AM

We enforce it the same way we do a lot of things: we use the honor system. If someone says, "I have seen this movie in a preview screening," then we believe them unless we have a strong reason not to.

If, on the other hand, we ask someone, "Say, this movie hasn't received a wide release yet; have you actually seen it?" and they answer anything other than "Yes," then we politely inform them that troping speculation and hearsay as if it were fact is inappropriate.

I haven't noticed a big problem with people lying and saying they've seen films they haven't. I have noticed a big problem with people insisting that because someone somewhere has seen a film, then it's "fair game" and everyone should be able to trope it whether they've seen it or not.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 18th 2019 at 5:14:39 AM

Oh, I agree in general that we shouldn't trope private or early screenings unless we have a good reason to do so; I just still disagree with the broader "don't trope a work you haven't personally experienced" concept. But we've been over that topic before, and there's no reason to discuss it again.

It's more like "they haven't seen anything of the movie". Any clips they seen online still counts. So it's not "if anything other than yes", it's "if they have no data they can properly use" that should matter. That's a way more reasonable standard than a hard yes or no.

And yeah, I say no to private screenings to begin with. That's impossible for us to enforce in a reasonable manner. Assuming good faith goes only so far. Public but not "super easy to access" is still far more fair game.

Your third paragraph is not what anyone's been saying at all. What we have been saying is that if the user cannot find usable material, they shouldn't be troping it. That's the standard that's been actually established. Anybody who has no data obviously shouldn't be adding to the page(stuff like uncommenting a Zero Context Example is fair, though. Or other things like fixing Example Indentation). Many people can find data via official clips and such and can add to the page. That's fine. That's public information that people are talking about using.

Edited by Irene on Aug 18th 2019 at 7:22:35 AM

That may not be what you are saying, but it is absolutely what Kaxrida was saying in the other thread: that once the work has been released anywhere, it is "fair game."

Obviously materials that have been publicly-released, like trailers, etc., can be troped. That's established policy at this point.

If it's out, it's out. There is absolutely no reason to require an editor to have viewed the work; a policy like that is unverifiable anyway.

Karxida actually said "if it's out, it's out. Someone can trope it." Now let's get back on task, please.

We're on the preview screenings bit.

Anybody disagree with the idea they don't count as tropable?

Honestly, I say that even such a limited release should be treated as a full release; if you've seen the work, list what happens. These are not intended as highly-selective private screenings. It should not be treated as a leak.

Besides, from what I've heard, works like video games, movies, etc. are typically completed months before release, allowing things like minor fine-tuning and testing to happen, as well as setting up promotional materials, reviews, and ratings boards approval. These sorts of early-access screenings occur using the final product, not a 99% done draft.