Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order

What I enjoyed about the Sith Empire was that the military are actually pretty damn professional, sensible and hard working, if ruthless. If it wasn't for the sith basically only being able to POWER UP by being the personification of the worst of the Internet made flesh in a Galaxy Far Far away, whilst also assuming politicking = Game of Thrones on SPEED, the Empire would be a harsh but probably pretty efficient place.

Not somewhere you want to LIVE obviously, but a machine run well.

My SW was lightside so when you turn Jaaesa (Think that's her name) and she basically talks about her master being a petty, vindictive selfish Jedi, whilst my Sith was an "Honourable" warrior, but stern and ruthless. I like that take, but I know in story the dark side is supposed to make you do bad things as much as doing bad things makes you stronger in the dark side.

It gets uncomfortable insofar as trying to play the Sith as Draco in Leather Pants. As that way there's no real downside to using the evil powers.

But I just find it amusing to have my cyborg-eye wearing, fask mask breathing, skirt wearing sith lord to be mostly clad in white. I like the irony as he is actually quite reasonable, charming, sarcastic. But will absolutely not tolerate bullshit.

Unless he's trying to up his relationship meter with a companion of course.

My Sith Inquisitor's idea was that he would be an Internal Reformist but he'd do that by using murder, lies, deception, and ruthlessness to try to make the Sith Empire a place where those things weren't every day occurrences (as well as end slavery with droids).

In my internal plot, this idea lasted up to the Knights of the Fallen Empire where the Republic and Sith were going back to war.

And he's finally, "You know what? There's just no salvaging this."

The thing with the Warrior and Inquisitor is that being Sith was more something trust upon them than freely chosen. It’s easy to imagine either not really being true believers.

I had Sith Warrior be light side because he's a Revan fanboy in-universe and is touch bit naive.

My Sith Inquisitor is a Jerkass Woobie who quickly became an asshole because of the Sith around her writing her off her accomplishments, the Sith Empire's nature and the corrupting nature of the Dark Side of the Force.

I had my Inquistor be an outright bastard with a sadistic streak but has enough kindness to treat his subordinates well & respect them. He respects & enjoys the company of his big purple bodyguard/attack-dog.

I just chouldn’t resist shocking people so I made him a bit too shock happy.

Which would at least be consistent with Sith. Using the Dark Side Force powers, especially something like Force Lightning, is supposed to be addictive.

The Dark Side is basically a drug and, according to KOTOR, even has a similar effect on the brain as certain narcotics. Which helps explain why Dark Side users often act and look like they snorted a mountain of cocaine.

Think of that scene from Scarface except instead of Tony Montana firing his grenade launcher while screaming "Say Hello to my Little Friend!", he's firing Force Lightning from his...other little friend.

Edited by M84 on Apr 17th 2019 at 6:43:32 PM

Yeah, that was always the sense I got of it. Once you finally snap and realize how easy everything is when people just do what you say, then you're a lot more likely to give in to it again. And again. And so on.

Even from a gameplay perspective with the Inquisitor it's hard not to. [Shock Them] is one of the more common dialogue options.

As they said when they launched, the Inquisitor is the chance for people to channel their inner Palpatine...

I like the Clone Wars approach, in that the Dark Side is clearly corrupting (Maul, Dooku etc) but can also be a tool. The "light" side of the force is as much an inhibitor as the dark, equally addictive and in some ways cloying.

Look how stagnant the Jedi are - it's the USE of the force (as Avellone tried to show it) that dictates the impact. How you draw on the power.

Of course, Lucas treats it as absolute; some of the EU does seems to strike a balance (heh) with the grey Jedi, or alternative force users who don't see an arbitrary divide... but then you have places where the Dark Side is strong and they are clearly WRONG on so many levels (Dagobah, Korriban etc). Heck, Kyle Katarn can use Force lightning and choke but he seems to balance his anger, passions and focus with genuine calm and thoughtfulness.

So I wonder if you can be a Sith (as the Sith code in itself isn't EVIL - it's about embracing your feelings) but in practice it seems to be "Get emotional, become Intergalactic Douche; the Jedi in turn seem to be all about emotional isolation and control and that's toxic in its own way...

In my head my lightside Sith Inquistor was more a Tragic Hero due to being a former slave stuck in the Empire with no real option out of it, they just employ manipulations and intimidation tactics to survive and have no love for what they have to do themselves. If they had any choice they'd just take their companions and go somewhere no Jedi and Sith can find.

If I went with a darkside Inquistor I would make them more of a Jerkass Woobie Death Seeker, again due to their backstory as a slave, whom is lashing out towards the world as a whole due to how miserable their life is and that the game is them trying to commit Suicide by Cop with the Jedi.

Edited by Wispy on Apr 17th 2019 at 6:55:47 AM

I'd play them both the same way at first. They would both spend most of their arc using their shitty life as an excuse. Only to eventually realize that it was just that: an excuse.

The difference between my Lightside and Darkside Inquisitors would be how they react to that realization.

The Lightside Sith would make the choice to try and be a better person, considering it pathetic to be chained by the past like that.

The Darkside Sith would fully embrace how awful they are, admitting that they were using their past pain as an excuse to do what they always wanted to do anyway.

Edited by M84 on Apr 17th 2019 at 10:27:31 PM

The problem is the Jedi being Stagnant is this Informed flaw that all the detractors consistently bark out but then when you point out you still have Jedi selfless giving their lives and functioning like normal fucking people

The lightside Sith character get way with what they do cause BW's not gonna enforce the Darkside's influence and ruin player agency

and all of this is BW's fault,

Avellone just used the loophole they created when they decided that the PT Jedi aren't the long end of generation rot... They were always the problem and somehow Exar Kunn was the second coming of Marka Ragnos, Avellone

'FYI The Sunriders would have been very much alive and well in Kotors 1 and 2 along with all the other Jedi dynasty families... WHOOPS since 40 years and the fact Jedi age fucking gracefully 'Dooku's 83 when he died'

Cause BW is hilariously trapped by their narrative style

BW loves the player power fantasy...

The ultimate problem with the Jedi is they run counter to BW's usual style of writing, IE YOU'RE THE ONLY HOPE CAUSE YOU'RE THE UBERMENSCH, So how do you make YOUR hero better then all the other guys out trying to save the world. Make them repressive, Slaughter them all

Granted Kotor 2 is a largely biased Deconstruction

TOR atleast tries to Reconstruct the Jedi as having Wide and diverse Ideals about Jedi Doctrine...

The Real Problem is BW's handling of the Republic who for some odd reason Kriea for all her talk about standing on your own... Never Rants about how useless it is with the venom she saves for the Jedi, Sith, Mandolorians... kids on her lawn... The clouds

Thats the odd thing Republic is the thing everyone fights for... but never seems to be worth anything

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Apr 17th 2019 at 9:31:49 AM

I agree to a point - the problem is also the "morality system" of Star Wars is very.... well... black and white. Dark Side powers = for teh evuls. Light side = always right.

KOTOR 2 did deconstruct it and you can't really play a "good" sith until The Old Republic game rolled around.

I will agree that Bioware clearly has a binder of story types they deploy for their games, as well as a bit of a cutout option for characters. And yes, everyone wants the cool powers without the price.

But I think there is a point to be made that the Jedi aren't... great. It's why Luke's approach in the EU where they are allowed to have families (thereby preventing the sort of divided loyalties, which leads to fear, which leads to all those negative, exploitable emotions) was a good idea.

To look at Clone wars as well, it does a good job of showing how the Jedi aren't, actually, all that good as Commanders. Yes they have magic powers, but a lot of the time their tactics and overarching strategies SUCK AND they rely far too much on central command to approve a lot of their localised actions.

The Sith are, I think tragic at times, as they are trapped and (As Vader shows) not entirely in control or actually happy with their lot. Again, the power fantasy - but there are consequences. The Jedi likewise have power but they're trapped by duty and a different code - less of an addiction. As an order they were stale, not learning, not expanding or changing.

The Sith adapted, but their core problem is they fell in love with their own "independence" and instead of using the passion side as a way to improve, they overuse the dark side and thus fall to it.

If Fallen Order (as the name implies) shows the protagonist having to deal with the pros and cons of not just the Jedi order but the temptations of the dark side, it could be a very interesting story.

I mean the Jedi are practically monks & rather secluded ones at that, taught to resolve situations peacefully with a lightsaber only as a last resort.

It kinda makes sense that they aren’t the best military generals.

They were never really meant to be bonafide generals, only peacekeepers at most.

Them being made into generals and sent into battle was a part of Palpatine's trap. It pushed the Jedi into a role they were not suited for, a role that forced them to do things against the Jedi Code (war being what it is). This in turn shrouded the Force in darkness, weakening the Jedi. All so that when Order 66 was given they would be at their most vulnerable.

Never forget that the entire Clone War was a giant Jedi trap.

In that particular case, the Sith's adaptation was that they put aside lightsabers and Sith sorcery and instead resorted to politics. The Jedi were prepared for the Sith Warriors and Wizards of old — they weren't ready for a Sith politician.

The Sith won the war the moment the Jedi took up lightsabers to fight because the Sith had made war itself their weapon.

Edited by M84 on Apr 18th 2019 at 12:04:16 AM

I think the big problem is that the series has a “team evil” problem. If you turn to the dark side, you somehow always end up wanting to join the Sith or become part of the Sith or whatever the big bad team is at the time, regardless of whether that makes sense for your actual motivation. There aren’t any villains who turned bad for sympathetic reasons and keep those reasons after threat fall, and as such the villainous side of the universe lacks nuance. It always just coalesces down to Jedi vs Sith.

As has been mentioned a few times over the course of the last few pages, Legends tried to explain this by having the Dark Side be The Corruption with a semi-will if it’s own that made you do evil things the more you used it. But that’s more or less out of continuity now (TOR being the only current thing where it’s relevant), thankfully - it was a silly idea that robbed characters of their agency for their choices, and the verse is well rid of it.

The dark side is at its best when it’s an accentuation of the user’s own darker emotion and negative choices: ie Vader being driven by his own self delusion and blame of others, or Palpatine just being an asshole. That is, that they’re on the dark side because of who they are, not who they are because of the dark side.

Keeping that in mind would do wonders for making bings more interesting going forward.

Oh the Dark Side is still very much The Corruption, even in the current canon.

Here's Wookiepedia's take on it.

Using the Dark Side is like a drug in many ways. In KOTOR there's a brainscan that outright compares the effects of prolonged Dark Side Force use with the effects of narcotics.

Edited by M84 on Apr 18th 2019 at 12:32:48 AM

It's like those studies that point out that "venting" anger by hitting things or screaming doesn't really help all that much, and may just teach you that when you're angry, the way to feel better is to scream and hit things.

You get mad, then you get zappy, and the problem practically solves itself. Why bother listening to people when it's that simple?

The more you do it and the more it gets you results you want, the harder it is to stop.

Especially if you're already surrounded by a culture that enables and glorifies this kind of behavior.

It's hard to portray the dark side as anything other than The Corruption when the entire concept is founded on one line from A New Hope: "Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

After Obi-Wan said that, since it was the first mention of both the dark side and the Force itself, Luke steered the conversation away and the dark side wasn't really brought up again as a topic of discussion until Yoda in Empire, who reinforced its addicting qualities ("Is the dark side stronger?" "No. Faster, easier, more seductive.") so as to steer Luke away from it. So everyone's conception is premised on that line.

Adding to that one of the Disney EU books has Luke unintentionally drawing on the Dark Side and describing it as feeling like you are invincible IIRC.

Yeah, the Dark Side is still very much a corrupting force. I think the best example is how it affects those that fall to it out of love. Which I think S Fdebris said it best. The Dark Side prods love with feelings of jealousy and the fear of loss and focus love inward away from the target of the affection and instead on the impact on oneself.

The trap of the Dark Side is that you fall more and more into an It's All About Me mindset. It stops being about other people and becomes more and more about yourself.

Until your self is all you will ever have.

But it gets you lightning as standard and makes you look good in black. It's about 120% cooler than being a good guy.

/)^3^(\