Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

This in no way responds to anything I said, I have no trouble respecting freely consenting sex. My problem is with shoving sex into advertisements for products that have very little or nothing to do with sex, that is what "sex sells" means.

There is nothing sex-negative about calling out unnecessary and obtrusive use of sexuality to sell a non-sexual product, even if it could be made non-sexist (somehow) it wouldn't be any less cheap or annoying.

It depends on what you're selling in this because a fighting game and sex isn't something that I think should necessarily be separated.

Call me crazy.

I'd say it's less "sex sells" (it kind of doesn't, actually) and more just "sex is fun". Some people like fighting games. Some people like scantily clad attractive characters. And some people like scantily clad attractive characters in their fighting games.

Can't say I really mind any of those options. It would be nice with a bit more diversity on the fan-service front though.

And it's worth noting that the linked video never presented nudity or sexual content as an issue on it's own. It was just "I don't think it suits this particular game" more or less.

The MK series is genuinely trying to evolve. Sex Sells, that's true. And it's not inherently a problem. It is, however, considered lowbrow and if MK wants anything resembling prestige (or, more likely, to be taken more seriously in the competitive fighting game circuit), being seen as lowbrow schlock isn't in its best interest.

Sex Sells exists for a reason: it's easy and it's worked. Continuing to rely on it after success reads like a crutch.

MK isn't even built on sex-appeal; it's not like Dead Or Alive where the female fighters are the big draw. If overly sexy designs aren't helping the brand, then why not change them?

Edited by Larkmarn on Apr 9th 2019 at 3:55:21 PM

The main sell for Mortal Kombat has always been violence, varied move-sets, options for alternate play-styles... and wicked-hard-but-awesome combos.

Sex? Why is that even there? Oh, yeah: the same stupid turn-of-the-millennium edge-lordism that turned a lot of games shades-of-toffee-with-grey-and-scarlet.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Apr 9th 2019 at 9:54:13 AM

Yes or the fact people like sexy characters male and female.

I speak for my huge Mortal Kombat fangrrl wife.

I mean, characters can still be sexy. But they seem to be trying to pivot away from what's perceived as an... "immature" view of what's sexy, I suppose. Said sexiness kinda comes across as... almost a game-wide Contemptible Cover if they are playing in public.

It's not as though MK was ever Best Known for the Fanservice.

Edited by Larkmarn on Apr 9th 2019 at 5:04:40 AM

Also, for me, at least, extreme fan service is ironically un-sexy. Hard to pin down why. If I had to guess it’s because that degree of objectification makes them hard to take seriously.

That's kinda the thing, yeah.

To me, making your character dress in a ridiculously unpractical and tacky way solely for providing fanservice is bad because it creates an unappealing design and distracts from the story. It's not that your characters can't be sexy or appealing, but you should do it in a way that doesn't detract from the story, especially if you're trying to tell a more serious story as these newer MK games seem to be doing.

I'm happy with lowbrow schlocky sexialized entertainment so long as it's equal opportunity. But make fans pitch a hissy fit whenever a male character's too sexy/skimpy.

I don't disagree per se, but YMMV on how distracting it is or how invested you need to get in the story before it starts to matter. The outfits are far from the only silly or immersion-breaking thing about MK, imo.

True, and I find that just as annoying, especially if they start to sneak some homophobia into it, which often happens.

Side note: I feel like attempting to over-explain or justify decisions that don't really need a justification often does developers more harm than good. I'd almost like to join the business just for the chance to deliver some short, honest and Doylist answers for a change.

Okay, maybe not that last one...

It’s worth pointing out, though, that the climate being created is not a positive one even if the developer is straightforward about their motives.

Only if you think that adding (or removing..?) gratuitous fan-service elements to a work of fiction automatically contributes to a "bad climate". Which I do not.

Edited by Corvidae on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:34:44 PM

I think you may have missed the point there a little. A climate of objectifying women is bad, and when the most common depiction of women in video games is as a thin excuse for fanservice that’s not a good thing. And there’s really no denying that does in fact contribute to said climate.

Edited by archonspeaks on Apr 10th 2019 at 6:39:27 AM

Popping in to agree with Archon here, especially when women who do speak up about said designs tend to get shouted down, ignored, or harassed. Games where it's presented as empowering often tend to be by accident - see Bayonetta, where it's commonly said that the character designer for Bayo herself saw the character as a power fantasy, while the game's director simply wanted her to be naked - or presented with wholly in-universe justifications for decisions that were ultimately made with no consideration for, or consultation with, women.

It's a huge problem in the games industry, especially in Japan. It took two production assistants quitting my company's most recent game to get the higher-ups to talk to, and eventually fire, our art director, who refused to design female characters wearing reasonable clothing, for instance.

Edited by RedSavant on Apr 10th 2019 at 9:51:50 AM

Though the mere presence of gratuitous fanservice in a game isn't a dealbreaker for me, I have become increasingly uncomfortable with it. Especially sex minigames, which just seem kind of awkward. I was really glad that the new God of War game didn't have any sex minigames or gratuitous nudity.

Non-sexualized female representation in video games is far from as uncommon as you make it sound. And it's only going to keep growing, because there's a clear and obvious demand for it that is unlikely to go away.

At the same time - like it or not - there's also a demand for schlocky fan-service (not just featuring female characters, I should add) that's equally unlikely to go away any time soon.

Whether it stems from people like you or your opponents, I think the conflict between the two is an artificial and pointless one.

Edited by Corvidae on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:57:42 PM

Just because it feels artificial and pointless to you doesn't make it so.

This matters.

Not sure why you're trying to dismiss this as a non-issue.

Edited by M84 on Apr 10th 2019 at 10:01:18 PM

Are we really going to say that there isn’t an issue with oversexualized depictions if women in media, particularly in video games? That feels like a position that’s a little out of line with observable fact.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with fanservice. There’s certainly a market for it. The issue is when you can’t go two minutes without it, which has historically been (and to a lesser degree still is) the case with a lot of media. That this depiction is so prevalent is how you get things like Quiet in MGS.

It's an observable fact that sexualized depictions/fan-service is common. I don't think it's an issue that it's common.

I do think it's an issue that fan-service is often unfairly prioritized in ways that hold back or ignore ideas from women in the industry, among other things.

I don't think fan-service versus non-sexualized female representation has to be a zero-sum game where the creation of one thing automatically prevents the creation of the other.

Edited by Corvidae on Apr 10th 2019 at 5:43:49 PM

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say. People pointing out objectification of women in video games is holding back women in the game industry? That’s a position that’s nonsensical at best.

I’ll also point out that nobody here is suggesting that we eliminate all fanservice or that this has to be a zero sum game.

Edited by archonspeaks on Apr 10th 2019 at 8:10:55 AM

Made it clearer.

What do you want then? Just less of it? Whenever I complain about something it's usually because I want to get rid of it.

Edited by Corvidae on Apr 10th 2019 at 5:49:59 PM

Less of it would be nice. Complaining about the overabundance of something doesn't mean wanting to get rid of it entirely.

Characters like Alys (I think?) from Horizon: Zero Dawn and Senua from Senua's Sacrifice have both been praised recently as examples of female heroes who aren't sexualized; I can't speak of any specifics since I haven't played either game, but the fact remains that that's still a rarity. "Schlocky" fanservice may not be a problem in the context of a robust array of options for female representation in games, but there is not currently a robust array, and so that context just doesn't exist. For every game featuring a well-written, solid female lead (who isn't just a silent NPC or character creator, which is like .25 of a point), there are two games featuring Strong Female Protagonist-types - and four games with rosters that include female characters whose only rounding is in their polygon count.

I mean, hell, look at Nintendo. At the same time as introducing us to Breath of the Wild Zelda, who's probably the best-written and most three-dimensional version of the character we've ever seen, they've also been making Samus shorter, more slender, and putting her in a miniskirt and heels for Smash, notably among transphobic comments from gamers. Sure, Peach is getting to do more, but just look at the reaction that garnered online too (even though that's tangential to fanservicey designs).

I mean, I'm a bisexual man. I don't want to speak for female gamers and it's not my place to. But this kind of thing is everywhere, and while I understand why people are eager to keep a niche for fanservice in games, it feels like every time the topic of "how do we start building something more inclusive" comes up, it's drowned out by people shouting "I don't know but leave the tits".

Aloy