The Woobie Cleanup

Pretty much like with the CM and MB Cleanups.

If you're thinking of EP'ing characters from Outnumbered, maybe you can talk with Cloister.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Mar 11th 2019 at 2:24:08 AM

Yes to everyone I missed.

Heyo, I got an offer to come and help out with cleaning up the Woobies, specifically those from the Legend of Zelda series. I'll probably be spending the next few days picking them out of the re-evaluation list (and maybe any others I feel confident enough to tackle) and figuring out where I want to start with effort posts, as well as voting any EP's that come up after this post.

Now, let me get this out of the way. I really, really don't like this thread as it takes away the opinion part of the Woobie trope, especially when there is already clear evidence for woobie characters right in front of our faces, and when other woobies are ignored. But since it seems that everyone still needs to vote on this, it appears I have no other choice but to play along for now. I still wish there was a better way than this.

I'm gonna be proposing Kiana Kaslana from Honkai Impact 3rd.

Who is Kiana Kaslana and what is her predicament?

Kiana is the 69th successor of the Kaslana family and daughter to Siegfried Kaslana and Cecilia Schariac. Her mother died when she was young and her father later abandoned her. She attended various schools before ending up in the same school as Mei and Bronya. She (along with her two friends) later joins Schicksal, enrolls in St. Freya Academy and becomes a Valkyrie to find out what happened to her parents. Kiana also has rather open feelings for Mei, something that (among other things) sparks her rivalry with Bronya.

She first appears as very ambitious in her pursuit of becoming a Valkyrie, and is very upbeat and chipper, if a bit Book Dumb. As the story progresses, however, it becomes clear that she's a Stepford Smiler. She has nightmares that plague her through the game and it's even implied that she blames herself for her mother's death (as her mother was called into battle shortly after giving birth to her, making her weak) and her father's abandonment of her (the manga adaption reveals that she tried to fight in his steed when she was younger, and it nearly spelled doom for her until her father saved her). One of the chapters has her seemingly going back into the past to meet her mother and father. She appears successful in saving her mother from death, but it is quickly revealed that it was just an illusion, causing her to lose all hope and end up kidnapped by someone she trusted. She was then used as a vessel for a genocidal god that began to wreak havoc and attack her friends until her teacher sacrificed herself to seal away the god.

It's also worth noting that this Kiana is a clone. The real Kiana is locked away somewhere being used a guinea pig for painful experiments.

Is she sympathetic by the standards of the story?

Not counting the backstories of other characters, Kiana seems to be the most sympathetic character of the game, since we see what's shes put through first hand.

Can she defend herself?

She sure can. All Valkyries can.

Verdict?

Definite Woobie. I say no to Iron Woobie as her story isn't done yet.

Edited by otemple700 on Mar 17th 2019 at 10:55:36 AM

If a character can defend themselves, then they should count as an Iron Woobie and also, to get the thread's approval, you'll need one vote each from 5 other users.

Clone!Kiana.

I don't think wobbies can be considered Iron Woobies just because they can fight. There has to be a deeper meaning to that.

Edited by otemple700 on Mar 17th 2019 at 8:26:01 AM

An Iron Woobie can not just defend themselves, but they also have that sheer determination, being willing to go through Hell even if they suffer gravelly for it.

exactly.

to (Clone) Kiana.

Clone!Kiana

I think the rule with Iron Woobie is if they can fight and have physical prowess they are an IW, but if they are a weak fighter, or a Squishy Wizard then they are a regular Woobie.

So I think we should change the template of an EP to "Is the character physically and mentally strong." Without the Thiefsword type weapons, Zidane for example is one of the weakest attackers aside from the Squishy Wizard and White Mages. And Tidus (who I'll be proposing soon) while he has the physically strong part down, he's not exactly mentally strong as he quickly goes through various abuse and regularly cries even as a 17 year old teenager and had abusive (both neglectful and mentally abusive) parents. That is what a regular woobie is.

Also just because a trope is YMMV does not mean that every character ever is a woobie. Like how can you think a Complete Monster is a woobie. There's a difference between YMMV and "no rules at all".

Edited by Klavice on Mar 17th 2019 at 8:52:13 AM

it isn't just that the Woobie can fight that they are classified as Iron Woobies, they need to have the determination to go through the hell they are put through.

Iron Woobie is not just "a woobie who is badass", but also "a woobie with iron mentality".

Unrelated question: Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is not YMMV, but are we including it in this thread too? And why?

We are because it is a type of Woobie. It's not YMMV because there's less lenience with it. It's a villain who's committed horrible atrocities but has sympathetic qualities to them. This however, does not mean Complete Monsters can count for said trope. I'm not trying to be mean with this cleanup and take away freedom of speech but The Woobie has become so broad that someone who was bullied regardless of the person they are could count.

"The Woobie has become so broad that someone who was bullied regardless of the person they are could count."

Of course it depends, but a person being bullied is indeed a point of sympathy.

But if you're saying that "Complete Monsters can't count for said trope", shouldn't it be obvious? CM isn't supposed to evoke sympathy in any way unlike The Woobie.

The criteria for WDOW has been set in stone (in that page), that's why we don't need to deal with it in this thread.

So stop deleting WDOW examples, please.

I'm afraid I can't promise any of that.

What if it leads to actual problems for this cleanup?

Edited by MasterJoseph on Mar 17th 2019 at 9:56:33 AM

Yes to Clone!Kiana.

Oh for the love of... The fact is WDOW examples are on the Woobie pages and they are considered a subtope of The Woobie.

As for being bullied I mean if it's mentioned in passing and doesn't excuse their actions. Like Muruta Azrael wanting to commit genocide of Coordinators because he was bullied by them as a kid. Or Lotso's backstory which not only doesn't excuse his actions, Woody even says HE abandoned his owner and I'm inclined to believe Woody as he is The Hero. Let's hope this is the last time we will have to mention Lotso.

Being bullied IS an excuse but if they do stuff like blow up planets or commit genocide there's really no reason to "redeem" them by making them a Woobie that is DILP. If the creator chooses to make them good however, that's another story.

Also, did I mention if we are JUST cleaning the Woobie examples then we'd have to make separate pages and cleanups for Jerkass Woobie and Iron Woobie among other things? I clearly stated at the beginning that this is a cleanup for The Woobie and its subtropes.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 18th 2019 at 12:52:06 PM

to Clone!Kiana.

Kiana

I have been sorting Woobies under the assumption that Iron Woobies had to have an iron will when faced with adversity (like they do not show how much they are hurting or do not let their tragedies affect them much, while normal Woobies break under the pressure). If an Iron Woobie is "someone who can fight", then previous entries I've done (ex: Oscar, Yang, Alfred) are in the wrong category.

Edited by EmeraldSky on Mar 18th 2019 at 5:55:25 AM

Do they have the sheer will to continue onward despite their plight? In addition to being defensive?

Edited by AustinDR on Mar 18th 2019 at 5:58:00 AM

Each of them have a breaking point. They pick themselves up and keep fighting, but they cannot put themselves back together mentally. Physically they continue fighting but mentally they struggle.

Oscar has lost most of his remaining self-confidence and became even more withdrawn after he found out he may soon cease to exist. He now lets Ozpin take control without a protest or struggle. He fights because it's the right thing to do and he feels he has no other choice. He wishes he never became Ozpin's host, so if he were not his host, he would not be fighting.

After everything he went through and discovering his impending death, Alfred went into a full-on depression he has yet to recover from. It's implied the only reason he isn't laying in bed and waiting to die is because his family will die if he does that. He puts on a smile and pretends everything is fine, but eventually reveals he sees no worth in his life anymore and considers killing himself to stop Salem from winning (He's talked out of it). He doesn't care if he dies, but doesn't want his family to die more. He fights for them, not himself. If his family were not in danger he would (at certain points) probably give up and let himself die. He has been getting better and regaining his will to live though that is a recent development. Like, less than two weeks ago development. It's a "Your family wants you to live so live to make them happy. Your enemies want you to die so live to spite them." type of deal. He still has to learn to live for himself.

Yang is the one I'm most iffy on whether she is an Iron Woobie or Woobie. She has PTSD from losing an arm and has a noticeable personality shift from boisterous to timid whenever Alfred is around (due to blaming herself for nearly killing him) but she (mostly) gets over it after Alfred tells her he never blamed her (though she still freezes when she accidentally makes jokes about things like fighting him). I mostly put her in the Woobie category because she was a Woobie on the RWBY page.

Edited by EmeraldSky on Mar 18th 2019 at 6:21:52 AM

Oscar sounds more Woobie given the threat of him being overwritten by Ozpin. Yang....because of the personality drift, I'd say Woobie as well.

Okay, good to know they're Woobies like I thought. Thanks.

Edited by EmeraldSky on Mar 18th 2019 at 6:36:03 AM