Avengers Endgame spoiler thread

One thing is taking a Malthusian conclusion carefully in a way that leads to stability, and another is being a literal semiomnicidal with delusions of grandeur.

And then there's the industrialist mindset that believes throwing money and tech at issues will solve them, without knowing from even where the raw materials to build that tech comes from...

That would explain why 2014 Gamora isn't around post battle I guess. I was wondering about that. I feared she was mistakenly included in Tony's snap.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Apr 26th 2019 at 8:24:51 AM

So they're temporal clones, basically?

I can't buy that since that should mean Tony is back because those things would likewise never happend. Plus Nebula saving her sister from herself, which to me feels like it is permanent and the Guardians will have to deal with Past!Gamora in the future.

This is what happens with Time Travel! Geez Kingdom Hearts is less confusing with its Time Travel!

x2 I feel like she ran off to who knows where personally.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 26th 2019 at 7:34:05 AM

I think the time travel in the movie is fairly consistent, it's just not explained all that well and the characters operate on somewhat faulty premises. Basically, there is no "time travel". They're more accurately shifting between dimensions. Every time they go back they create a separate timeline entirely, hence things like Loki fleeing with the Tesseract or Cap meeting himself and receiving knowledge of Bucky's predicament (things they never fix and is never addressed). That's what the Ancient One means with "by saving your world, you'd doom mine." (i.e their original timeline would be saved, but Ancient One's timeline would have to fend for itself without the Time Stone). The visual representation of this is Ancient One's "branching path" explanation to Hulk.

This is how Nebula kills her own past self, because that is no longer her past. It's a (time-shifted) alternate reality version of her, so the cause-and-effect doesn't whiplash on her at all.

From what I gathered, each time travel forged a different timeline: their whole shebang on 2012 New York was alternate timeline number 1, their theft of the Power and Soul Stones in 2014 was timeline number 2, Steve and Cap going undercover in the 70's created timeline number 3. Cap going back to stay with Peggy was timeline number 4.

So now there's a timeline Loki fled with the Cube from New York, Cap knows Bucky is alive and SHIELD thinks Cap is HYDRA, a timeline Thanos and his army was wiped out wholesale in 2014, a timeline Hank lost some of his Pym Particles (I'm guessing things didn't change much) and a timeline Cap and Peggy aged together.

kh works on stable time loops and you cant change the past but if you somehow do you will fade away as a price. this is creates alternate universes except when it doesnt like with cap

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on Apr 26th 2019 at 7:35:19 AM

The two can overlap

Hey, for anyone who's seen it already, is it true that it doesn't have credits scenes? I'm seeing it tomorrow, so I want to know in advance.

But, ok, the timeline where we end up at the end of the movie (say, let's call that Post-Endgame) SHOULD NOT be the same timeline that Cap and Peggy grow old together. As much of a good scene as it was for Cap to give the shield to Falcon and pass the torch... shouldn't he have ended up in the original snap timeline, essentially?

Also, why the hell didn't Stephen just use the Time Stone to fix a lot of things? Like... The Ancient One went out of her way to explicitly state that the Time Stone still needs to exist for Dr. Strange to do his thing. But then it gets sent away with the others?

Also, are we just not going to talk about Vision? And his perma-death that's implied here?

It does not but it has a pretty credits sequence.

Edited by InkDagger on Apr 26th 2019 at 7:39:52 AM

there is no after credits scene

the time stone was needed for that branch to stop dormammu so it kinda needed it back

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on Apr 26th 2019 at 7:41:22 AM

OK, good to know. It's a long movie and the showing I'm going to is at like 8 PM, so I just wanted to make sure.

...Now I'm going to leave this thread and not come back until I've seen it.

Edited by SapphireBlue on Apr 26th 2019 at 7:42:55 AM

I got the impression that they still needed it though? Like, there were other purposes and reasons that their society has that stone? If not... why didn't it get hidden somewhere safe a long time ago? Particularly if the Ancient One has this omniscience of Dr. Strange being a thing but not that Thanos is after the stone?

Old Cap showing up in the post-endgame timeline is the only real wrinkle I see with the "branching paths" take. I'd chalk it up to Hulk's device actually bring him back as intended but in a Rule of Drama way. My headcanon is that old Cap stayed at Timeline N. 4 until Peggy died (so, 2016) and then came back out of his own volition to the Post-Endgame timeline.

As for Vision, well, the movie did talk about him. Wanda and Clint briefly share their sorrow over the fact he's dead for good.

But I don't get quite... WHY he has to be dead for good? Particularly after he was so under-developed? And... apparently has a TV Series soon too?

I also don't get why Infinity-War!Gamora and Black Widow... HAVE to stay dead? Never mind the whole 'Clint taking his life works better for a character arc argument', but... All they really say on it is 'I think it's different' and they never explain further or try further so that feels like hand of the author.

But... Resurrecting Gamora would be so much more cathartic? And a stronger character? Like... Gamora-Gamora died in Infinity War. She told Peter she loved him. She stood up to her dad. She forgave her sister and accepted her responsibility in the abuse. But her story ends there.

This Gamora... she doesn't know any of the Guardians. She isn't good because she turned and went through character development or hit all these critical moments. She... did so because she heard of a timeline where she did those things? Post-Endgame!Gamora is suddenly now a weaker character because we have now lost all of her REALLY good character development.

The same reason Tony has to stay dead.

Vision probably isn't dead for good. The show will almost certainly cover it.

Gamora and Black Widow can't be brought back with the Infinity Stones because they were killed in order to get one in the first place. Hulk tried.

2014 Gamora is the Gamora from now on because it creates a plotline for GotG 3.

Edited by LordVatek on Apr 26th 2019 at 11:02:07 AM

It benefits from her not being with Peter Quill.

It's a fair trade off.

It's a kind of dilemma here because Gamora and Vision dying were extremely emotional moments that'd be robbed of much of their if you just had them all coming back. I could have done with more Vision and I do miss Gamora, but I think it's good they stuck to their guns on this and had them stay dead. It'd be kind of silly if this epic war ended with exactly one relevant character dead.

It's also really more internally consistent since their whole thing was reversing the snap. Vision, Gamora and Loki all died before said snap.

I could have gone with alternate timeline Gamora staying around though. Though it's possible that's still the plan since she just drops off existence during the third act.

As for Nat and Gamora, I feel it is enough to justify with the whole "sacrificing a soul to the Soul Stone gets no backsies."

Edited by Gaon on Apr 26th 2019 at 8:05:49 AM

I agree.

Getting serious, while I also took great joy in it, I did pity Peter a little. He's lost another loved one despite his efforts, she'll never come back....but she is back, but as a completely different person who only has her face. When I forget my hate for him, I can actually recognize that that's a pretty shitty situation for Peter.

And when I remember said hate, I...feel something akin to joy.

....I honestly thought this movie would make me like him again. Instead, it made me like that he got treated like shit. It's pretty good.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Apr 26th 2019 at 9:05:04 AM

As always, Dan Olsen is awesome:

"One thing I just want to warn you is that Endgame is full of a ton of spoilers for Avengers: Endgame. So if you don't want to be spoiled for Endgame, don't go see Avengers: Endgame."

I should note that when I say that Vision getting brought back will be dealt with in WandaVision... I think it will be a very very special way of being brought back. The rumors floating around the show make me think that Wanda kind of goes a little nuts with her powers.

Edited by LordVatek on Apr 26th 2019 at 11:11:54 AM

So, House of M all over again?

I honestly want Marvel to just pull a fast one and go "surprise lads, the Wanda Vision show doesn't involve Wanda and Vision, it involves Wanda dealing with the loss of Vision. Natasha is also dead and her movie is a prequel lmao."

More like Tom King's The Vision.

Edited by LordVatek on Apr 26th 2019 at 11:17:21 AM

I wouldn't mind that. Could make her a really compelling character. Kind of a Jessica Jones-esque character examination.

It just sucks to lose two of my favorite female characters and one of said female characters becoming a weaker character because of it. I loved Gamora as a character and I actually though she had some of the best scenes of EVERY movie she's in and had some of the strongest character wins.

And to lose all of that just... She was one of the best developed characters and one of the ones I don't think, of ALL the characters here, we should have gotten a reset button on. Because I don't know if whatever they do next for her will somehow be more satisfying than what we had.

Another awful though...

So, some people told me that "OMG! There's a gay character in the MCU!" and I was hyped thinking Adam Warlock or Hulkling got a surprise show up. And... it's just the guy in the counseling meeting? And, like... Yes, normalize that shit. And my mind in that scene when he started talking about a date went to "Huh, wonder if he'll say he went on a date with a dude" and then... he did. And I was surprised. Normalize that shit.

But... I was kind of mad that that's it. And, with how emotionally fulfilled I felt after the movie and how a lot of others have that cathartic release of 'This is the end'... To have all these POC, and women lead, and the potential LGBT movie coming up AFTER the Grand Finale... I'm worried. I really am. I'm worried that some of these films will be set up to fail to an extent because Endgame was such a finale film that not as many will want to keep continuing on with sequels.

I'm scared I will never see myself, or that part of myself, in one of these movies.

Edited by InkDagger on Apr 26th 2019 at 8:58:00 AM