Avengers Endgame spoiler thread

They probably felt they needed to do it just because she's one of Cap's most famous love interests in the comics, but either forgot or didn't care that Black Widow's increased prominence in the previous movie meant they didn't have the time to flesh out Sharon and her relationship with Steve beforehand so it would make sense.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 3rd 2019 at 5:01:07 AM

Given the lengths they went to hide Sharon's last name in The Winter Soldier, my guess is that the original intent was to have Sharon be built up as a gradual modern Love Interest for Steve without being seen as a Peggy clone. That means starting off as Just Friends in The Winter Soldier with the whole Promoted to Love Interest to be reserved for the third Captain America film. Keep in mind, Civil War was only decided in response to the announcement of Batman v Superman back in 2013.

It didn't work out as planned because Peggy Carter was much more popular than intended and thus it was hopeless to recreate the iconic Steven and Sharon relationship in the comics. With that said, however, it might be a blessing for Sharon in that she can step out of Steve's shadow and be judged as a character by her own right (rather than just be remembered as Captain America's Love Interest).

Edited by Shadao on Sep 3rd 2019 at 5:30:03 AM

Well it's not even that, Peggy being popular wasn't what kept Sharon from rising up to be popular in her own right. Them failing to give her the development she needed, as well as them going out of their way to paint her as Peggy's Replacement Goldfish in Civil War and undermine whatever individuality she had did.

I don't think they made her Peggy's Replacement Goldfish in Civil War, they just didn't give her enough screentime. Especially with Cap, so their kiss just kind of came out of nowhere.

If they had gone on the run together to find Bucky, that would have provided more time for them to actually bond and the kiss to mean something.

Unpopular opinion: I liked Black Widow fine, but I never felt a huge connection to her in the MCU. The main reason is that Scarlett Johansson plays her, and she's... not the best person. Definitely not worth being the single most expensive actor in the MCU, her acting was never the high point of a movie for me.

As far as portrayal goes, Hawkeye at least had his arrow gimmick that he used to great effect, Black Widow had a few different gimmicks that she kept rotating through, which meant she never really had much of an identity in action scenes (her most iconic thing is grabbing peoples' necks with his legs and spinning around their heads, which starts to look a bit silly after the 4th or 5th time). I don't mind her willingly sacrificing herself for the Soul Stone, I think it's the perfect endpoint to her character arc, and I'd have been fine if she never showed up again.

If you want to talk about female characters, I'm more invested in Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel, Gamora, Nebula, Valkyrie, Shuri, Okoye, Hope, and Mantis than I am in Black Widow.

The situation of the movies seems to be the reverse of the comics.

In the comics Peggy was simply a secondary character, while Sharon was the official love interest.

In the movies Peggy is the official love interest, while Sharon is the secondary character.

Because Sharon was introduced after Captain America got thawed out from the ice in both versions.

While the Marvel Comics initially and primary focus on Captain America's adventures after World War II (with occasional flashbacks to that wartime period), The First Avenger was a distilled adaptation of Steve's time during the war, and consequently, Peggy Carter was used as the Love Interest instead of Sharon because Sharon represents the post-World War II era that comics Steve will live out the rest of his life in. It's one of those things where starting off in different eras can have dramatic effects on the overall story. If The First Avenger was about Steve adjusting into modern day with flashbacks of World War II, then audiences wouldn't be as much attached to Peggy Carter as they do now.

Edited by Shadao on Sep 7th 2019 at 3:47:01 AM

It also helps that Peggy herself has become a popular character in her own right which kept her in the game.

Who would have thought the lyrics to Super Hero Squad's intro would have predicted Thanos' fate in Endgame.

"Even Thanos ends in tears, when Iron Man joins the fight".

Now that you said it... it's pretty interesting, by the way.

This show in five days will be exactly 10 years old.

Random musing.

I knew that there are a LOT of moments in Endgame that became memes.

But, "Hey, Peter Parker, got something for me?" meme?

The resulting search made me go..."Oh. Oh my."

Ara ara.

(shudders)

I never thought much about that scene other than it was amusing.

After nearly two decades of using internet, I guess I still have some innocence left.

Edit: And oh my God, there's a porn made of this one exchange. Wow. Not surprised, but still disturbed.

Edited by dRoy on Oct 20th 2019 at 2:13:28 AM

On the one hand the two were shipped in the comics briefly

On the other more important hand he’s a teenager

I also missed the less innocent interpretation of that scene. That's a shock.

....so....how long did it take those Larson hating assholes to use that as further truth that both she and Captain Marvel are awful?

For the record I have no innocence left but I also didn't interpret the scene that way. You'd have to go out of your way to interpret it that way.

....Dude, that's so specifically imaginative that most Larson haters wouldn't even have thought of that one.

Edited by dRoy on Oct 20th 2019 at 3:40:55 AM

....Reading your post makes me feel like I'm giving them too much credit....and that you're not giving them enough credit.

One of us is wrong. I think I'll take this hit and hope to god it's me. It's for the best.

Whatever man, I'm not the one who's actively going out of my way to imagine Larson getting harassed in creative ways.

Neither am I.

And don't get me wrong: I'm glad it apparently didn't become a thing. I'm just surprised as well because considering how far they'd go to take anything that happens and twist it to make her look bad, I assumed they'd latched on to this.

I'm glad my cynicism was unfounded this time.

And now lets never speak of this again.

Thor with both Mjolnir and Stormbreaker but not fat vs Carol with a full battery, vs full on Celestial Quill, vs Wanda on a bad day?

Who takes it?

On a different note, it's not lost on me how Carol was underused in Endgame yet at the same time I enjoyed her a lot when she WAS used. Her entrance in the finale was fucking incredible and even if it was brief it was cool to see how she fared against Thanos. Now she's joined Wanda in the "all but had Thanos dead to rights and would've finished him if he didn't play dirty" club.

And WandaVision even lampshaded that.

With the upcoming What If? series, there's a part of me that wonders, hypothetically, how this whole movie would play out if who got dusted and who didn't got swapped?

I’d honestly be shocked if the Endgame' episode of What If?'' ends up being anything else. Because “What if the other half survived” is by far the most natural question to ask.

Meaning that with the Guardians of the Galaxy, Rocket and Nebula get dusted instead of Quill, Mantis, Drax and Groot. With the Avengers, it's Tony, Cap, Banner, Thor, Clint and Natasha who get dusted while the ones who get spared are T'Challa, Shuri, Falcon, Bucky, Wanda, and the Pym family were spared. It would be interesting for a group like that to interact because they have interacted the least.

Somehow, what I can think of is that Quill, Groot and Nebula would fight Quill's past self for the Power Stone on Morag. Drax and Mantis would be the ones to get the Soul Stone from Vormir, since both of them would have reasons to be the sacrificial lamb (Mantis for being complicit as Ego murdered his children, Drax because of his family). Doctor Strange would be the one getting the Time Stone from the Ancient One. Bucky and Sam would be the ones obtaining the Mind Stone and having a fight with 2012 Cap. Scott, Hope, and Spidey would be the ones tasked with obtaining the Space Stone. T'Challa and Wanda would be the ones who go to Asgard to get the Reality Stone (Frigga's conversation with Thor that allows Thor to realize he's still worthy of Mjolnir would be replaced by her having a conversation with Wanda where she talks about the hardships of raising two boys; foreshadowing Billy and Tommy in WandaVision).

Who would do the snap to undust everyone is unclear. Wanda could do it since she’s connected to the Infinity Stones, with the advice from Frigga coming in handy as well, though it wouldn't bring her back Vision. T'Challa doing it could also work, especially following the success of his solo film, then the defeat in Infinity War on his land. Or even Quill, as he harnessed the Power Stone without being vaporized due to his half celestial heritage. Hank Pym would probably be the one to work on the time machine and Vibranium gauntlet.

I should probably just be grateful this wasn't made in the main thread, but why did you need to bump a spoiler thread just for this?

Quill isn't half-Celestial anymore. I mean, he is, but with Ego's death he's for all intents and purposes just a human.

The thing is, this wouldn't really work if the other half got dusted because the time heist wouldn't be possible. If the Ant-Crew isn't dusted, then Scott isn't caught in the Quantum Realm and doesn't come up with the idea of using Pym Particles for time travel. That could likely be handwaved by Janet's experiences and someone coming up with the idea.

What would be a lot harder to reconcile is not having the two smartest men on the planet trying to crack time travel. Of super-geniuses left, we've got Strange and Pym. Strange lost the Time Stone but he's a quick learner. Pym... well, honestly he's our best bet but one would think that if he had some idea of the possibilities he'd have tried to save Janet or at least see her again. Hell, his presence might be a detriment given how badly he wants to keep the Pym particles from being taken advantage of.

If the other half of the universe's population got Snapped ... I mean, that includes Thanos himself, so it's unclear whether he'd have time to/think to destroy the Stones before turning into dust.