Misused: Casting Gag

Only thing we can do about this other than a merge is to rewrite and retool Casting Gag to make it different from Actor Allusion and Actor-Shared Background.

First, I want to point out that Actor Allusion is not a casting trope. Here's the weird thing, someone changed the emphasis in the section that contrasts Actor Allusion and Casting Gag. I think I'm actually the one who wrote it years ago with the emphasis on the "any character, plot of situation" but someone changed it to emphasise "previous plot or role". I also see in the edit history that they changed the line about Actor Allusion from referring to an already existing character to just "the actor".

On to the second point, Casting Gag in relation to Actor-Shared Background- Actor-Shared Background is very broad but still doesn't cover all of Casting Gag. Take the first The Big Band Theory example on Casting Gag for example. Classic Casting Gag, two actors were cast in roles in a particular relationship (here as love interests) in one show so in another show with one of the actors, the other is cast as a love interest. (It's also an example that overlaps with Actor Allusion). But there's no Actor-Shared Background- there's no mention of the two being lovers in real life. Even in examples which use real life details of the actor, it's not necessarily a shared background, hell, in the Scream 3 example it's mutually exclusive.

It seems really key that Casting Gag is a) actually a gag, something that plays off of the actor's history whereas the Actor-Shared Background is a very unplayful piece of trivia like "where did you go to school?" and b) actually relates to the casting in some way. It matters that you cast that person in that role. In a lot of the Actor Share B Ackground examples they made a small detail about the character relate to the actor after the casting so if you cast someone else, you just change the detail. E.g. you just change the answer to "where did you go to school".

I say keep them split, do some rewrites. I actually disagree about some of the misuses, especially. Plus there is a particular category of misuse where an editor just kind of points out that an actor plays roles of a similar type (aka having an acting career) that I don't actually think there's much we can do about in the title or description. It's just a form of simple pattern recognition that some people attach too much significance to. My dad used to do it while watching movies when i was a kid. "Hey that guy always plays these types of roles" he would say and I would find it annoying that he even bothered to point it out. C'est la vie. People will want to point it out and will grab the nearest trope to do it unless you discourage them through editing it out.

Great idea!

^^ Can we get to a differentiation between CG and AA where we don't have to admit for every second example that they both overlap? E.g. in a form of supertrope/subtrope relation so that placing examples is straight forward?

Or can we have a guideline with dummy examples and suggestions where they belong (AA, CG, ASB, Typecasting)?

Examples:

1. This isn't the first film where Actor X steals a person’s body.
2. Actor X's character tries to make a homemade silencer only to make the gun louder. In Movie Y, his character tried to make the first silencer with the same results.
3. The trucker in the movie is played by Actor X, who voiced Character Y in the '90s cartoon version.
4. In The Stinger, Magneto warns of "dark forces approaching," which is from The Lord Of The Rings.
5. In Movie X, the actor playing the T-800, had previously played Arnold Schwarzenegger in Movie Y.
6. Actor X, who was an over the hill, forgotten silent movie actress, plays here an over the hill silent movie actress.
7. Larry Hagman playing a Texas billionaire.
8. ...

Example 1 is terrible because it's the kind of writing that relies on a sinkhole.

Actor Allusion and Casting Gag are not supertropes, subtropes nor sister tropes of each other. They're probably cousins in some way.

For the examples, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean something like...

• Actor Allusion: Actor X's catchphrase from Old Series is used as the tagline for a commercial that pops up on several of the characters' tv screens.
• Actor-Shared Background: When we see the personnel file of Character X, we see her birthday is Datey Date Time. This is actually Actor X's real life birthday.
• Casting Gag: The character of Sir Tim Berners-Lee was actually meant to be a cameo from the real Sir Tim Berners-Lee. What is the real Berners-Lee famous for? Inventing the World Wide Web. So who did they cast instead? Al Gore.

Or are you thinking more generic? Or are you thinking multiple example for one on each page?

edited 19th Oct '17 7:20:42 AM by SomeSortOfTroper

Your example for CG only covers the first part "Real Life circumstances" of the current definition which is easy to place. But what to do with the "career and other roles he or she is famous for" part? This is clashing with AA and we need a decision to either cut this part and move all examples with regards to previous roles over to AA or find a clear cut definition when a reference to a previous role is AA and when it's actually CG.

So, can we review the options? We can't cut or merge Casting Gag though.

To me, the contradictions in the description have to be sorted out. Trying to clarify the description with existing contradictions is a contradictory exercise.

I also hold the opinion that taking a little step can help sort out what the big steps should be.

Honestly, from the names it seems more like Actor Allusion is about deliberate allusions to the actor, and Casting Gag is a conscious casting choice that humorously refers to either past roles or the actor's life. (Just from the names, that is, but I know what the tropes are.) As these aren't the definitions, renames or reworkings are a good idea.

To mention related tropes to completion, the unintentional version of AA can be covered by Actor-Shared Background or Reality Subtext (which seem fine because they're quite clear as being when character/actor share qualities and when something relating to character references something about actor, respectively — i.e. Scottish actor plays Scottish character VS Scottish actor plays American character noted for doing a surprisingly good Scottish accent).

edited 11th Nov '17 7:29:01 PM by lakingsif

A lot of the examples seem like they might fit better under Hilarious in Hindsight. Stuff like "Grey Delisle voiced a cat in this animated series and Catwoman in this TV show" sounds like a bit of a stretch if the criteria is supposed to be the actor was explicitly cast due to a famous similar role.

What are all the solutions to this trope (without merging of course)?

Maybe we can look at redrafting the description. Casting Gag is when there is some Hilarious in Hindsight regarding real life facts about an actor compared to the role they have been cast in. If we can take that essence and explain it well, maybe add some distinctions, it might not take too much work

Here's an idea. What if we separate Casting Gag from Actor Allusion / Actor-Shared Background in terms of scale:

• Casting Gag is a scenario where an entire role mirrors/parodies an entire previous role or RL situation of the actor. A conscious casting choice can be assumed. This can also apply to cameos.
• Actor Allusion is reserved for deliberate yet rather isolated throw-away references to previous works/roles.
• Actor-Shared Background is for details a character shares with the actor playing it.

So having Michael J. Fox and Christopher Lloyd together in Spin City is a Casting Gag, them checking their watches◊ would be an Actor Allusion.

1. This isn't the first film where Actor X steals a person’s body.
   • Actor Allusion
2. Actor X's character tries to make a homemade silencer only to make the gun louder. In Movie Y, his character tried to make the first silencer with the same results.
   • Actor Allusion
3. The trucker in the movie is played by Actor X, who voiced Character Y in the '90s cartoon version.
   • Casting Gag
4. In The Stinger, Magneto warns of "dark forces approaching," which is from The Lord Of The Rings.
   • Actor Allusion
5. In Movie X, the actor playing the T-800, had previously played Arnold Schwarzenegger in Movie Y.
   • Casting Gag
6. Actor X, who was an over the hill, forgotten silent movie actress, plays here an over the hill silent movie actress.
   • Casting Gag
7. Larry Hagman playing a Texas billionaire.
   • Casting Gag

edited 28th Nov '17 1:36:40 PM by eroock

We should do that then.

Is that leaving just Reality Subtext for moments/roles that reference an actor's RL without being Actor-Shared Background (like popular rumors, jokes about things they are against, etc.)

Good point. I amended the definitions above. If the RL circumstance is expressed by the character as a whole (a reformed alcoholic playing an alcoholic), this should also go under Casting Gag. Same birthdays stay under Actor-Shared Background.

edited 25th Nov '17 1:20:30 PM by eroock

let's get some definitions down

"Actor Allusion is reserved for rather isolated throw-away references (conscious or not) to previous works/roles."

In disagree; Actor Allusion has to be conscious because Examples Are Not Arguable.

I am fine with changing it to "Actor Allusion is reserved for deliberate yet rather isolated throw-away references to previous works/roles." — Important for the definition is that the idea for the reference was conceived after the actor was cast. Indication would be that the original script didn't include the connection.

Have we gotten enough options for a crowner? Again, however, I do not recommend merging Casting Gag with another trope.

39 has my suggestion for how to better contrast the tropes. It doesn't need much effort to rewrite. A clean-up is secondary. Not seeing any other option for a crowner.

I support 39, trust eroock can do some good rewrites

edited 4th Dec '17 10:47:38 AM by lakingsif

I am not volunteering for the rewrite.

So, single-proposition crowner for 39?