The Marvel/DC/Fox Pre-Expande Universe

"The Issue with Daredevil is for me that the movie makes him too brutal and ready to murder. I mean, I am not a comic book expert, but he seems to be more like a blind punisher.... "

He is in the middle parth between Batman "NOT MURDER" and the punisher.

"It is too bad that so many studios are now trying to force one into existence, though the good thing about this is that they have finally learned that they can make way more money if they actually put some effort into sequels."

Just a thing here, there is a diference between shared universe and having the same chararter in a lot of sequel, the former is something new, he later is as old as Dracula, frankenstein and werewolf.

" There is certainly merit in this, but I would actually prefer to get a take on the characters in which they are the focus, and not the sensibilities of the director in question."

fair enought but like other said is not like the director dosent have print in the movie, at times Winter soldier feel more like thriller with Steve in the middle than a comic book hero but that is arguing about definitions.

But how am I supposed to appreciate the different take because I, being a comic book dummy, doesn't really know what is getting reinterpreted? I mean if not for the Batman:TAS I wouldn't even know that the no-killing rule is a big deal for Batman, or how important Robin is for the character since it is a juxtaposition to his lone vigilante business.

Well, in the Daredevil movie one of the first things he does is straight up murdering someone.

And I am okay with having Steve in the middle of a Thriller because for one, it is still the character from the first movie and two, the first movie is, as far as I can tell, very true to his origin.

edited 28th Dec '16 3:29:30 PM by Swanpride

Well doing an "auteur" take doesn't mean you toss all the iconic elements into the trash. BTAS has most of the important eements of Batman but it's hard to argue that it doesn't stand out, that it doesn't have a unique identity or that it didn't make its own contributions to the Batman mythos. My understanding is that Bruce Timm, Paul Dini and everyone else working on the show had a lot of creative freedom to do their own take on things and it shows.

Batman's no kill rule not showing up in the movie adaptations consistently is a bit of an anomaly in this regard.

edited 28th Dec '16 3:35:46 PM by Draghinazzo

sure, But Winter soldier depart a lot for the usuall Formula by making Steve a wittness rather than focus enterely on him, which it was a good move from is part.

on the other hand, Batman return really throw everything under the bus except for a key things here and there.

Catwoman is something of a big departure (Selina being a super mentally broken woman was, I think, a new concept at the time, as well as the 9 lives thing) but the Penguing is an even bigger one for reasons already mentioned.

Interestingly, from what I remember Penguin TRIES to cultivate the image he naturally has in the comics (a genteel aristocrat celebrity) but his monstrous nature always undermines his attempts.

Penguin as a character has never really settled into a definitive personality. The idea of him being something of a gentleman thief is the oldest and most recurring concept but even then he keeps switching personalities.

Like I said in my first post, It feel Burtons Catwoman work well for Harley quinn, there are moments when it show is duality, like Selina trying to tell Alfred if he can said something to Bruce because she is dumping him or in shreck dance, Bruce ask her who she is and she answer "I dont know anymore"

The pinguin....you are half right, I first he didnt want to do it until Shreck convince him to run for mayor, he started to like it and goes so far to slap a mook for calling him the Pinguin. But once is fraud is exposed he run away angry, demanding be call the Pinguin not oswald.

Overall both fit better with Batman theme of insanity as he fight madmens, it sure make a lot more intersting that the petty criminal with a bird theme as in all adaptations

edited 28th Dec '16 4:02:39 PM by unknowing

I don't think anyone's ever been really sure what to do with the Penguin since the Silver Age, where he was another gimmicked-up bank robber. He's one of Batman's most recognizable signature rogues, so they don;t want to dump him. I liked what they did with him in the later seasons of Batman: TAS where he was a fixer and skirted the edge of the law.

Ever hear about the original script for Batman Returns? Where we discover that Shreck is Oswald's younger brother, the one the family kept? A lot of Penguin's actions make a lot more sense with that in mind.

Would this be the appropriate place to discuss the "off brand" super hero films of the '90's, like The Rocketeer, The Shadow and The Phantom? Or even the earlier Flash Gordon?

edited 28th Dec '16 6:27:23 PM by Robbery

In my eyes, the only non-MCU superhero movies worthy of being in discussed in the same breath as the movies of the MCU are Richard Donner's Superman, the '60s Batman movie, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, and the first two of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies. I suppose a case could be made for Deadpool as well.

Mot P is an animated movie so it's in a separate category.

I agree that it's a great film though.

I believe my first superhero movie was Batman and Robin. Loved it as a kid.

Never liked any non-Nolan DC film ever since.

edited 28th Dec '16 9:18:06 PM by RAlexa21th

While we're at it, I suppose we could throw in Atom Man vs. Superman and Superman vs. the Mole Men. Or any of the old serials (they even did a Congo Bill serial, believe it or not).

edited 28th Dec '16 9:40:56 PM by Robbery

@Swanpride. I wouldn't call what Matt did to that guy at the train station murder given the guy was pointing a gun at his head seconds ago. Plus, pretty much every non lethal hero has broken the rule in the comics when it suited them.

Edit: I'm also confused by your comments. How were you so sure, say Batman TAS, was an accurate take when you'd never read the books?

edited 29th Dec '16 12:17:55 AM by windleopard

"In my eyes, the only non-MCU superhero movies worthy of being in discussed in the same breath as the movies of the MCU are Richard Donner's Superman, the '60s Batman movie, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, and the first two of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies."

Mmm, I tend to agree...I mean, as much as the first Spiderman trilogy was a giant let-down for me, it was the first live action take which truly embraced the genre since Superman. Everything else was either not particularly good, tried to hide the Superhero aspect as much as possible or was X's take on the source material.

Though if we talk about Mask of the Phantasm, we also have to talk about the other decently budgeted animated Superhero movies....most notable Big Hero 6 and The Incredibles, naturally, but there is also the Dream Works movies (sorry, forgot the name) about the villain who accidentally kills the hero.....

Then let me ask you... what was Matt doing following him in the first place? He's not planning on catching the guy, because he's been released. He's not preventing a crime. He's clearly stalking him with the intention of taking justice into his own hands. I can't imagine what he's planning on doing other than flat out murdering him. I agree that the whole "killing someone in desperation in an attempt to get them to not, you know, put a bullet in your head" isn't necessarily murder, but since Matt got himself into that position with, at the very least the intent to commit aggravated assault... yeah, that's a murder.

If we're bringing up MOTP, we're mentioning Batman Under The Red Hood. Easily the best animated superhero movie, in my opinion. And one of my favorite takes on the Joker/Batman relationship to boot. You're mentioning Mega Mind, by the way (great movie. Did not expect to like it more than Despicable Me but it blew DM out of the water for me). But I feel like this topic is less about Superhero movies and more about Comic Book Superhero movies. And I honestly don't think even BH 6 would count in that regard.

So I love-love-loved Spider Man 1 and 2 when they came out. I've seen them dozens of times. And yet they've aged so poorly for me. Tobey just makes an incredibly crappy Spider-Man. Better Peter Parker than Andrew Garfield, but goddamn he can't Spidey for his life. I will say that other than him and MJ, the casting was amazeballs, though. JK Simmons is JJ Jameson, May and Ben were perfect, Norman and even Harry were great (I truly did enjoy James Franko in SM 3, believe it or not), Doc Ock was shockingly perfect... so yeah. A lot going right. But goddamn the plots themselves have aged poorly, the Peter/MJ Romantic Plot Tumor is malignant, and again, I do not like Spider-Man. That's an issue.

edited 29th Dec '16 5:57:42 AM by Larkmarn

If we count Nolan's and Burton's Batman, than Big Hero 6 counts too. It is just "another interpretation" of the source material......

Yeah, the fact that I didn't like TG in the role was also my main issue with the original trilogy...I actually liked TAS better...still not quite there, but at least the character was allowed to develop and there were a lot of scenes I honestly liked.

edited 29th Dec '16 7:18:28 AM by Swanpride

I mean in this case it's legally a Disney movie and not a Marvel one. I'm not talking about how it's different from the source material but how it's not considered a comic-book movie.

It has the Marvel logo and a Stan Lee Cameo, so yes, it is definitely a Marvel movie, too.

No, I mean legally and for merchandising purposes it's qualified as a Disney movie over a Marvel one. It's why Hasbro (who makes Marvel toys) didn't make toys for it but Bandai (who have the license for Disney toys) did and why the Big Hero 6 Funkopops don't have to be bobbleheads (all Marvel Funkos legally have to be bobbleheads).

edited 29th Dec '16 10:20:35 AM by Larkmarn

I dislike ASM, mostly because I find its version of Peter super unlikable (not in a good way, either) and the first film itself was largely mediocre outside of Emma Stone and Martin Sheen being great in their roles.

I never saw the second one because of it, and this turns out to have been a good decision because by all accounts it's a hot mess.

edited 29th Dec '16 10:33:51 AM by Draghinazzo

As a whole, I have a little soft spot for these Pre-MCU comic book movies. A bulk of them are indeed terrible like Steel, Tank Girl, Batman and Robin, the last two Superman movies before Returns, and Ca-bleg,uuuuuurgh bleeeeeeh, Catwoman.

However amidst the scourge of garbage you also get movies like Hulk (2003) which has elements I actually prefer over his MCU installment The Incredible Hulk. For example the 2008 movie only has one really memorable piece of music in its soundtrack, that being the title sequence track. Danny Elfman's score has several tracks that I still have in my head (The final battle track, the main theme, the track that plays where they're escorting David Banner to meet with his son, the little piece that plays when Bruce hallucinates seeing the Hulk in his mirror, etc.)

Hulk (2003) also has some outstanding sequences like the aforementioned mirror scene, the part where David gets his absorbing powers, the ending where the scenery just keeps getting greener and greener until the entire screen is nothing but the color, and more. Not to mention there actually is some variety with action sequences (he fights tanks, helicopters, mutant dogs, his father who turns into different shapes).

There's also the 2005 Fantastic Four movie which.....ok it wasn't exactly good, but it was fun (at least I had a good time). I did like the comedic banter between Ben Grimm and Johnny Storm. There's also some cute gags like Johnny popping up popcorn with his hand. Also, it's surreal as hell seeing Chris Evans play a pre-MCU Marvel character.

Hell even Cat Woman (2004), shitty as it is, was so creatively shitty. The kind that makes you want to go "Wow....the balls on you people who came up with this stuff." It's definitely something you'd never see done nowadays.

There's also the David Hasselhoff Nick Fury movie which, again, was dumb but fun. It's a goofy movie that owns it goofiness.

edited 30th Dec '16 1:54:30 AM by 1upmushroom

I can't express enough how much I hate Catwoman. The movie is on every level offensive.

What, you mean you didn't like the ungodly amount of changes to her character that made Burton's interpretation seem more faithful? Or the annoying side characters? Or the insanely petty villain that's not even enjoyably petty, she's just obnoxious?

Hulk (2003) also has some outstanding sequences like the aforementioned mirror scene, the part where David gets his absorbing powers, the ending where the scenery just keeps getting greener and greener until the entire screen is nothing but the color, and more. Not to mention there actually is some variety with action sequences (he fights tanks, helicopters, mutant dogs, his father who turns into different shapes)

I also like it's version of Ross.

Actually, I would have minded none of this if the result had still been a somewhat good movie. No, what angered me about the movie is that it tried some of the most sexist stuff I have seen on screen as feminist.

Also, CGI cats. Those are just creepy. Honestly, what is wrong with real cats?