Oh, bother.
I still try very hard to pretend the Ultimate comics line never happened.
Disgusted, but not surprised
To me Ultimate Spider-Man is the only Ultimate comic...
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
This movie spawned from Ultimate Universe.
Where there's life, there's hope.
Just because it came from the only good comic in the Ultimate Universe doesn't mean that it's a validation or vindication of Ultimate Marvel.
When the Ultimate Marvel universe folded, only two characters were imported to 616 — Miles Morales, and the Maker/Evil Reed Richards (both of whom were created by Brian Michael Bendis). Almost everything else fell by the wayside.
Ultimate Spider-Man was always more popular than the rest. It's not an accident that it went for some 200 plus issues, while the other Ultimate titles didn't last long.
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
Also black Nick Fury.
Where there's life, there's hope.
Only the idea of Ultimate Fury being Samuel Jackson. There's next to no resemblance between the character of Ultimate Fury, and the MCU Fury, and the one in the 616 Continuity (who is actually a long-lost mixed-race son of the Classical White Fury and not really the character from Ultimate Marvel).
Ultimate Fury was a megalomaniac and entitled boss and basically a Mary Sue who was an all-powerful omniscient guy whose ring everyone kisses. MCU Fury is a compassionate but pragmatic man, self-deprecating, manipulative, and genuinely does care for people and saving lives as opposed to doing stuff to further his own career and legend (which is what Ultimate Fury cared about).
Yeah, I don't remember liking the Ultimate Comics Line-up either aside from anything that had to do with Miles (which I actually started reading two years ago). I can't really remember why because it's been so long since I read them, but they just weren't for me.
This is totally random but has anyone noticed how Gwen Stacy is getting close to taking Mary Jane's place as the most popular female character in the Spider-Man franchise? Between Spectacular Spider-Man, her being the best part of the TASM duology, the Spider-Gwen comics, and this film; Mary Jane is starting to look less interesting in this new wave of Spider-fever.
I mean, don't get me wrong. Mary Jane is still THE Spider-Man love interest but...Gwen is pretty awesome these days. Comparing Sam Raimi's Mary Jane (whom I actually don't mind) with TASM Gwen is enough to win a lot of people over, in my opinion.
The Head of the Hydra
Well it’s not really Gwen Stacey exactly who’s becoming really popular now.
Spider-Gwen & Gwen Stacey are amusingly different from each other.
It’s funny in how during all the recent revitalized fame the original character is still dead in the grave.
Edited by slimcoder on Dec 30th 2018 at 1:10:11 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
My guess is Spider-Gwen gets popular because of the reversed role angle and she's a classic character that people haven't seen since the Clone Saga. Spider-MJ has never reached that popularity despite Renew Your Vows. Thus Gwen Stacy is the go-to female Spider just as Miles is the go-to non-white Spider.
Where there's life, there's hope.
Kind of. He said he opposed mutants, but at one point he complained about the Human Torch passing by, with Miles trying unsuccessfully to point out the Human Torch isn't a mutant.
Ultimately he was actually pretty lenient towards Miles-Spidey when the two came face to face. They simply agreed to stay out of each other's way and cooperate when necessary.
RE: Miles and Gwen. I haven't heard good things about their relationship in the comics (though I haven't read them myself yet), but it appears their dynamic in Spider-Verse is significantly friendly than it was in print so those issues will probably be avoided.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 30th 2018 at 1:20:13 AM
The Head of the Hydra
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
As I recall the costume did a long way.
From the moment the character was first unveiled all the way back to the original Spider-Verse people were hyped for Spider-Gwen on just her costume alone.
Then the hype stuck once her Edge of Spider-Verse issue showed a unique & distinct setting helped immensely by the fantastic art & quality qriting.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
The fact is Gwen Stacy is not popular as a love interest but as an AU superheroine. Whereas Mary Jane doesn't need superpowers to be popular. Likewise MJ is in the new game that came this year and is playable while Gwen is a no show. And ITSV cements MJ as Peter's one and only. So if anything 2018 is the year MJ struck back.
The Emma stone movies bombed hard. The Raimi movies, the first two are beloved. So fundamentally MJ is more profitable and iconic. And as many point out Emma Stone is Essentially Mary Jane in Gwen trappings. The whole idea of a love interest knowing the identity being a confidant and so on comes from Mary Jane. The first supporting character to know Peter's identity in both classical and ultimate versions. The Emma Stone Gwen also had the star brand of her relationship with Garfield which ended when he cheated on her and they broke up. So it's had no staying power.
@Revolutionary_Jack
See, but I specifically said that she's becoming the most popular Spider-Man related female character after Mary Jane, not necessarily his most popular love interest. Gwen's resurgence in popularity has been a bit of a slow-burn. She seemed to be a character that was mostly remembered for how she died, but ever since the new millennium, she's been having numerous on-screen appearances that brought back into the favor of pop culture.
Also, the TASM films were actually pretty successful at the box office, they were just canceled for numerous other reasons. And most people will say that the best thing about those movies was the romance and Gwen Stacy a.k.a the female love interest, which is practically unheard of for comic book movies.
Plus, Gwen Stacy and Spider-Gwen may be fundamentally different characters, but they are still Gwen Stacy in-name. The juxtaposition of who Spider-Gwen is in comparison to her main universe counterpart is part of the reason why she exploded in popularity. The fact that she was able to appear on the big screen in a starring role so shortly after her debut is definitely a testament to how popular her character was beforehand, especially in recent years.
Edited by deuteragonist on Dec 30th 2018 at 1:38:29 AM
The Head of the Hydra
I'm hoping that popularity Spider-Gwen got extends to the other Spiders.
Noir could use another comic (though I have to read his first two) & Peni deserves one too.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
That juxtaposition is absent in ITSV. The audience Spider Gwen is made for are people for whom 121-122 have no meaning and relevance.
It's a fact that none of the Spider-Man movies after 3 matched its profits. That includes the Garfield movies and Homecoming. So MJ is still the more profitable female character. She was a playable character and romantic lead in the fastest selling runway console release.And people know that Emma Stone's Gwen is popular because of the actress and she hasn't exactly headlined blockbusters. She did some Woody Allen movies she apologised for making last year. Garfield on the other hand worked for Scorsese. So I think she had the shorter straw.
Spider-Gwen is a popular character. But I don't think the climate is demanding for one female character at a time in Spider-man. I don't think her popularity diminishes MJ. It might diminish Black Cat on the other hand.
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
Wow, Black Cat. These are the days where the most popular version of Black Cat is a French cartoon.
Where there's life, there's hope.
I think Black Cat's decrease in popularity has to do with not only Gwen Stacy but also her (iirc) being much more of a criminal in the comics these days. And then there's always the existence of another popular cat criminal
.
However, I like Black Cat much more as a villain anyway. I think she's interesting regardless, but something about her ruthlessness just makes her so threatening to me. She's one of the characters I want to play more of a role in Miles' life as a villain.
Not really a lord of anything
I feel like lately, writers have had a hard time writing Black Cat as her own thing and instead just opt for a Catwoman rip-off.
This song needs more love.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
It'd be hard to diminish Black Cat given the downright creepy ways in which Marvel already seems to hate her. I actually wrote up a post about this not long ago in the OTC. I'm just gonna copy/paste it here.
Back in the 80's and 90's, Felicia Hardy aka the Black Cat was introduced to be Catwoman. Just...just straight up Catwoman. There's basically no getting around the fact that she's Catwoman. Felicia was Spider-Man's love interest for a time, but they ultimately broke apart because she was more in love with the thrill of being with Spider-Man than the reality of Peter Parker.
Even after they broke up, however, Felicia remained an on-and-off companion and ally, showing up in stories from time to time to lend a helping hand. Right.
But in the last decade or so, there's been a strong push from Marvel to realign Felicia as an oozing bitch-monster made of evil incarnate. The comics used a Body Snatcher storyline (Doc Ock stole Spider-Man's body) to brutalize her, having Doc Spider-Man beat her hard enough to break off some of her teeth. This, in turn, provided the catalyst for her to go Full Supervillain, taking over the criminal underworld and making herself into the new Kingpin of Crime.
The recently released PS 4 Spider-Man game goes to great lengths to humanize and make sympathetic characters who have long been pretty straightforward Evil Bastards in the comics, including Doc Ock, the Kingpin, Mr. Negative, and the Green Goblin. For Felicia, they concocted a storyline wherein it's revealed that she's back in the action because of her son, with the implication being that Peter's the child's father.
After a winding plotline dealing with the fallout of that revelation, what it means for Peter's future, and how it affects his rekindling relationship with Mary-Jane, we find out that it doesn't matter because Felicia's really an Evil Bitch-Monster who made it all up to trick him into cooperating with her greatest heist ever. There never was a child; it was all the fantasy superhero equivalent of a child support trap.
But probably the most glaring moment of raw irrational hatred towards Felicia has to come from the video game Spider-Man: Web of Shadows. The game features a moral choice system with four endings. Two of the endings are Good endings where Spider-Man remains true to his heroic nature, and the other two are Evil endings where Spider-Man is corrupted by a symbiote and becomes a monster.
Felicia shows up as a dark and sinister temptation in Spider-Man's ear, while Mary-Jane plays the role of the virtuous love interest. The catalyst for which set of endings you get is determined by a moment where Felicia's life is imperiled by the symbiote invasion. To stay on the Hero path, Spider-Man must choose to do nothing and let Felicia die.
So. Yeah. Marvel's handling of this character has been pretty far from great and it's honestly really creepy. And that's before getting into more petty things like the Ultimate Spider-Man comics casting her as an adult woman while Peter's in high school to trick her into accidental pedophilia or the coming "The Evil That Men Do" asserting that the whole reason she learned how to fight is because of rape.
I do agree that Mary-Jane remains the single most popular love interest. Fans go nuts for her as Spider-Man's Wife/Girlfriend Mary-Jane.
Gwen, however, has been developing a pretty strong following in the last decade or so. Fans love her not for being Spider-Man's love interest, but for being Gwen Stacy. I would argue that she's popular enough to carry her own series without Peter attached, but Spider-Gwen exists so that's not a hypothetical anymore.
Also Gwenpool, which technically isn't Gwen - she's a completely unrelated character named Gwen Poole - but is blatantly inspired by the Gwen craze.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 30th 2018 at 10:07:16 AM
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Wait wait, I don't remember letting Black Cat die in Web of Shadows. Admittedly it's been quite a while since I played it, but I am definitely sure I remember firmly (but non-violently) rejecting her, and pretty sure I remember saving her life during a quicktime event. And I only did one playthrough, maximum goody-twoshoes.
There's still a lot of sexism and such with the Betty and Veronica dynamic in that game in general, I'm just saying I don't remember that specific problem.
Edited by Discar on Dec 30th 2018 at 9:20:07 AM
Luckily, Nick Spencer managed to turn Black Cat around in his Amazing Spider-Man run — she's back to being Spider-Man's ally and is no longer a villain, even learning his secret identity again. (Spencer also handwaves her turn to villainy, having her say it was because she didn't know if she could trust anyone since she realized that something important had been taken from her — which was the secret identity mindwipe.)
Edited by alliterator on Dec 30th 2018 at 9:55:29 AM
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
That is some Ultimate Marvel grossness.
Where there's life, there's hope.
Read it and judge for yourself. It's actually quite hilarious.
In Ultimate Spider-Man, Bendis did the Felicia/Peter/MJ Love Triangle but he didn't do it with Black Cat...he did it with Kitty Pryde/Shadowcat, an X-Men and hero and that was just so much better because there really was a sense that it could go either way. Shadowcat wasn't a villain, she wasn't this sexy temptress girl...she was basically like Peter and MJ but from a different background. Unlike Felicia who had that complex about Spider-Man looking like a plain guy like Peter, Shadowcat had no problems but she still preferred Peter's Spider-Man side and didn't get his whole preference for a private and normal life. And the way that romance resolved without making either Kitty or MJ look bad, with her and Peter still being friends, and Spider-Man becoming Shadowcat's Unrequited Love Lasts Forever but which inspires her to do good and become heroic...basically shows a level and potential for change and development that Felicia never showed.
The problem with Black Cat is that there was never any reality to her. She was just this genre archetype — sexy, cool, cat-burglar, which did pre-exist Selina Kyle. I mean Catwoman is herself dated, but the thing is Gotham City being that it's a fictional city with blend of stuff from different decades of the 20th Century, so you'd have dated pulp mash against contemporary stuff...makes it work. But Marvel always likes to insist that it's set in a contemporary New York as much as possible. Like it's definitely plausible to meet someone of Gwen's background (rich, cultured, elegant sophisticated Proper Lady in the classic era, and in Spider-Gwen, a Hermione-ish middle-class overachiever), and MJ's (socially mobile working-class girl who scraps hard and is funny, charming, and charismatic). Whereas Felicia is this white-haired glamorous cat burglar wearing a domino mask. There was never anything grounded to her. And of course Selina Kyle and Catwoman is just so much more interesting and dynamic, with two iconic screen versions (Michelle Pfeiffer, Anne Hathaway), to say nothing of the Batman TV series which had Julie Newmar and Eartha Kitt.
Anyone who knows anything about Ultimate Marvel would know that hating all superheroes there is justifiable. Aside from Ultimate Peter, most of the Ultimate Superheroes, including the Ultimate X-Men, are legitimate a-holes. And yeah Ult Spidey would be tarnished with guilt by association.
Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 30th 2018 at 5:11:15 AM