Space Jam and its potential sequel

"Of course the Toons get clobbered (except Lola, because she is a girl). Michael inexplicably sends in a mouse as a replacement, which is just a setup for another gag."

The mouse is Sniffles by the way, one of Chuck Jones' first recurring characters, so it was another cameo.

I admit the creation process for Lola is laughable in this regard:

-"Let's make a new character, a girl, and she's spunky and proves that times have progressed and a female character can do everything a male character can do."

-"Soooo, we're gonna squash her and blow her up with dynamite?"

-"What, are you nuts? She's a girl!!!"

I do wonder if Lola will appear in the new film and if so, what depiction they will aim for.

Almost everyone agrees Jam Lola just didn't really leave much of a mark, since they primarily thought of her gender over her being, you know, an actual Looney Tunes character.

In hindsight, her being Immune to Slapstick might have slipped past the radar if it weren't for being an exceptional scenario where even the usual Comically Invincible Heroes like Bugs, Road Runner, Tweety, etc were getting their ass kicked, but even then Lola just wasn't inherently funny like even those guys usually are. You could tell Kath Soucie was trying (she has sadly played this archetype before) but energetic sass only gets so far.

Then again, nearly every Lola after that has tried to fix this tends to make her nearly a completely different character.

Edited by Psi001 on Aug 15th 2020 at 5:26:13 PM

I'm pretty sure Bill Murray's just there as a funny celebrity cameo. Like Hassleoff in the Spongebob movie or Simon Cowell in S Hrek 2. No hidden meanings.

Then again, the original plan was to have the Roadrunner be the one to save the day for the Toons. But at least they lampshaded Murray's Deus ex Machina with even the Monstars being put off by his producer benefits

I got to say that one of the few Looney Tunes aspects that Space Jam gets right is some of the characterizations such as Daffy's, who is allowed to be both a screwy loon and a grumpy egotist without leaning too heavily to either persona while also having a design that takes cues from all his incarnations

Yeah I admit to liking how they done Daffy in Space Jam. It seems like the live action movies always take to reinstating a little of Daffy's old wackiness (even if that just seemed to be another thing Jones didn't like about them).

They also made a compromised version of Tweety as well. Still largely innocent, but has that aggressive side to him back.

That scene with him kicking the Monstars' butts is among the few genuine highlights of the film for me. Pretty much the second half, where the Tunes aren't getting embarrassingly beaten down just so Jordan and Murray can be better, is where the film actually captures the essence of the Looney Tunes in all its screwy, irreverent and violent glory

Hell, even our favorite Coyote managed to get them once they played their way.

The irony is that there is a human female basketball player who challenges Charles Barkley, who manages to show more of a character in that one scene than Lola in the entire movie.

Actually, what did Road Runner do in this movie? You'd think a guy with Super-Speed would be huge Game-Breaker for the Tunes.

I'm okay with Jam Lola and Looney Tunes Show Lola. Maybe they can go for a middle ground between the two.

Of course, I'd like more female Tunes so Lola doesn't have to bear the load of female rep alone.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 16th 2020 at 3:37:55 AM

Road Runner did very little, but it was still more than Speedy (who got caught in a simple mouse trap off screen, which is probably the worst defeat of any character).

Lola is such a big example of everything wrong with 90s feminism, being an extremely flat sassy tough girl character who is still mainly there to serve as the love interest to Bugs. She doesn't get to do all that much either, though that is partly due to another problem this film has, namely that it tries to cram in too many characters. Beyond Bugs and Daffy, none of the toons really get to do much.

Wabbit Lola was an interesting compromise, since she had a bit more of her sports girl persona but was still a lot wackier and was often individual of Bugs. I heard the comic books tried a more humorous take on Lola as well.

LTS Lola was fun, but often to the degree that they may as well have made a completely new character.

I think the Road Runner was meant to win the game in the end, this ended up in the novelisation.

Edited by Psi001 on Aug 16th 2020 at 1:29:06 PM

I think what was really missing was Mel Blanc. He made these characters into stars. The cartoons were basically built around his performance.

Not quite. Mel Blanc was long dead by then. The voice acting, IMO, was fine enough. What the movie really lacked was respect for the Looney Tunes for most of the film. Like, they were so unnecessarily toned down into helpless losers just so Jordan could upstage then, and the new addition was a failed attempt at writing a female member into the cast

I mean I didn't mind the idea of having a threat that even the most hyper competent stars were struggling against, they already toyed with having situations Bugs and Speedy would outright lose against, and seeing the Road Runner suffer slapstick and Wile E Coyote actually get to be competent was an interesting turn just for the fact it had pretty much never been done before.

It was done a bit to shill it's new stars crossing over into it, though even then Michael and Wayne were sporting performers and did lots of gags and slapstick too (if very awkward Uncanny Valley CGI slapstick). I didn't watch it feeling like it was just a one-note shill about how awesome and god-like Michael was.

Edited by Psi001 on Aug 16th 2020 at 4:45:38 PM

That was my point, Mel wasn't around to do his work any more.

And you are absolutely right, despite Chuck Jones' protestations, there are classic cartoons where Bugs is definitely on the back foot against a villain or monster.

My point about Michael was more that he never gets busted up during the actual game. The Monstars have no trouble mashing him up during their introduction to Jordan, but after that they really don't attack him any more.

Edited by Redmess on Aug 16th 2020 at 5:46:52 PM

Lola didn’t have much of a character in the first place: a hot bunny girl that’s good at basketball.

For some reason I never found it too conflicting because, despite Michael and Lola being Immune to Slapstick in the start of the match, they didn't seem to put a lot of emphasis on them pretty doing the whole thing single handedly, Lola actually seems to pretty much disappear for a lot of the film. Hell the big game changer seemed to be more Bugs' Magic Feather trick with his water leaving the toons getting a big second wind on their own.

Edited by Psi001 on Aug 16th 2020 at 5:07:08 PM

Is it wrong that I still really like this movie. I mean I know it's not a great movie. But I still find it a fun watch.

Yeah, I have to say, while it is rather flawed and shameless, I do think it has good qualities, and despite the breaches with the franchise, I like they done their research with loads of cameos and not just using the 'contemporary' takes on the cast (eg. non-stop jealous loser Daffy and ONLY that).

Even the fact they tried to hard to make the Looney Tunes modern I take with a grain of salt, since Looney Tunes had been trying to be modern from the beginning. They made references to films and media that in the time of production were relatively new and Carl Starling essentially used pop songs to make the soundtrack. It's only because this production method halted near around the 60s and a lot of the references have now fallen into obscurity that it seems vintage and "timeless".

Edited by Psi001 on Aug 16th 2020 at 4:55:17 PM

I like the characterization of the Tunes for the most part. The soundtrack (Both the OST composed by James Newton Howard and the Pop Songs) and all the mythology gags to the classic Cartoons. Plus, the cultural references (Such as the Pulp Fiction homage) were pretty hilarious

Edited by VengefulBale on Aug 16th 2020 at 12:03:31 PM

Exactly, the Looney Tunes were always in touch with the latest pop culture of their day. It's just that after 60 years, we can't really see that any more when we watch these cartoons.

There is an entire sub-genre of cartoons about parodying then-current movie stars and brands that is practically illegible without commentary tracks today.

I mean let's be fair, the franchise was never consistent. Every creative member had a different approach to making the cartoons and a lot of it was Played for Laughs.

I mean I definitely empathise with Chuck Jones over it, since he definitely had more say about knowing the franchise than anyone who made this film, and the story about him getting kicked out of WB just for criticising the film does genuinely sound disrespectful to a veteran that's been contributing to them for decades, but it's easy to forget that just because he was the last active member of the LT staff doesn't mean he was the definitive Looney Tunes creator, multiple folks created them that didn't always see eye to eye with his ideas. Like he seemed to have the disposition that anything that didn't use his takes wasn't the "real" thing, even if another Termite Terrace member was responsible for it (eg. the screwball versions of Bugs or Daffy, which he disowned Who Framed Roger Rabbit? for using and seemingly dissuaded fellow director Robert Mckimson from using under protest).

I take the whole "Bugs wouldn't have needed help" critique with a grain of salt because of this, because many say Jones only understood Bugs when he was winning period, something that wasn't always the case. Bugs was actually a pretty versatile star in the 40s.

Edited by Psi001 on Aug 16th 2020 at 6:14:03 PM

Look up some of the wartime propaganda cartoons and prepare to be uncomfortable.

I think Space Jam's main failing was really just the over-commercialization aspect to it, it's something animation always needs because it's not cheap but different works manage to hide it better. Jordan is a non-actor but legendary sports figure, the celebrity cameos that pop up and the massive marketing blitz feels off compared to the simplicity and efficiency of the original shorts. In fact, I think this is the first true feature-length Looney Tunes story rather than a compilation of the shorts with some sort of framing device.

That said I've never really had a problem with the movie, some of its issues like Bugs and Daffy being on friendly terms doesn't mean their core personalities were absent. Bugs was still the clever manipulator and Daffy still had a massive ego.

I honestly loved the dynamic they had here. Daffy clearly has some jealously towards Bugs, but otherwise doesn't protests against listening to him and they're shown to be good friends outside of some banter. Plus, the idea of the Looney Tunes all banding together wasn't bad.

Bugs and Daffy were Vitriolic Best Buds in some previous shorts, just Daffy's vices always caused him to backstab Bugs. "The Million Hare" is a good case of this dynamic.

I think it was generally only the Friz Freleng portrayals where Daffy tends to just flat out detest Bugs, even the Jones ones are kind of playful at times.

Jordan wasn't the most colourful actor, though I suppose that worked in terms of making him a foil to the wacky cartoons. He did at least try some funny bits like him sucking at everything but basketball, the "Daffy Doc" gag, and the aforementioned awkward CGI slapstick, which helped him feel like less of just a walking commercial. I thought the gags with the other basketball players were pretty funny too. It felt like one of those things that was clearly pitched to be a cash grab but the guys they gave it to were at least trying to put some effort and heart into it in spite of that.

Edited by Psi001 on Aug 16th 2020 at 6:36:21 PM

Also again the soundtrack was legendary (even the big elephant in the room that sung the most famous track in the album).